At what stage does abortion become murder?

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  • bootlegger10
    bootlegger10 Posts: 16,296
    hippiemom wrote:
    We do deal with it. It's just that you don't always approve of the way we deal with it. That's your problem ... deal with it.

    No, you don't deal with it. Dealing with it would be accepting the consequences of your actions. But, you take the selfish way out.
  • comebackwoman
    comebackwoman Posts: 7,271
    angelica wrote:
    This is the part that gets me. We are not only accountable for what we accept accountability for. Or we are not only accountable for what we see as our accountability. We are accountable for any ethical responsibility for our actions. And when we fall short there are consequences.

    Many, many people are out of touch with the consequences of their own actions and therefore create effects that ripple forward, perpetuating cycles for years to come. Then we say "why me??". Many times we are unwilling to really search our deepest selves and to make our decisions in the light of insight.

    It makes me sad that in our western world, it's often either/or--we're either for or against, and in the meantime, we don't allow ourselves to really honestly find what is right for our own hearts. And we pay big.

    I agree - many people are cut off from the consequences of their actions, not just with sex or abortion, but with so many things. I wish people could have more insight into themselves and their choices and make educated and informed decisions. We need to listen to ourselves and our intuition more.

    I didn't mean to imply that YOUR decision to be celibate was about birth control, btw. I just meant I respected you for making that choice for yourself and that it is the best form of birth control (for other people), but that it might not be right for everyone.
    There's a light when my baby's in my arms :)
  • bootlegger10
    bootlegger10 Posts: 16,296
    LikeAnOcean wrote:
    I was hoping for more people in this thread to question their own beliefs like I did. I guess that didn't work.. my real question can't be answered I guess.

    Your real question has been asked for decades, and I'd guess most of the debates probably turn out like this thread did.
  • comebackwoman
    comebackwoman Posts: 7,271
    bootlegger10 wrote:
    Did I ever say the man shouldn't pay child support? In most cases you should probably know who you are making a baby with well enough to know whether or not they'll pay child support. Shame on you if you don't.

    A man and woman hook up to have a baby. It's their baby. It just so happens that the woman develops the baby. That's the way it has been for all time. Women should figure that out. A man should have a say in whether or not a baby is aborted. Deal with that.


    I never said that you mentioned child support. I'm just pointing out another tough fact. I agree - ideally they would know each other well enough before having sex, or having a baby.

    I think women do have it figured out. They've been dealing with the consequences of pregnancy (wanted or unwanted) since the beginning of time.

    The law does not give the man the right to decide if the pregnancy is terminated. That's just a fact.
    There's a light when my baby's in my arms :)
  • comebackwoman
    comebackwoman Posts: 7,271
    LikeAnOcean wrote:
    I was hoping for more people in this thread to question their own beliefs like I did. I guess that didn't work.. my real question can't be answered I guess.


    I guess it's because abortion is such a complicated issue. We start at looking at the ethics/morals involved in deciding to terminate a pregnancy, but then we have to start asking about the ethical and moral obligatons to the poor, to the sexually assaulted, etc. It's hard to look at it in a vacuum. The question gets bigger and bigger. I definitely think you got people looking at their beliefs, though!
    There's a light when my baby's in my arms :)
  • bootlegger10
    bootlegger10 Posts: 16,296
    comebackgirl wrote:
    I never said that you mentioned child support. I'm just pointing out another tough fact. I agree - ideally they would know each other well enough before having sex, or having a baby.

    I think women do have it figured out. They've been dealing with the consequences of pregnancy (wanted or unwanted) since the beginning of time.

    The law does not give the man the right to decide if the pregnancy is terminated. That's just a fact.

    You are correct.
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    bootlegger10 wrote:
    No, you don't deal with it. Dealing with it would be accepting the consequences of your actions. But, you take the selfish way out.
    Abortion is one way of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. It's not a way you approve of, but it is indeed a way. There is no way to NOT deal with a pregnancy, it forces you to acknowledge it eventually, one way or another.
    bootlegger10 wrote:
    Did I ever say the man shouldn't pay child support? In most cases you should probably know who you are making a baby with well enough to know whether or not they'll pay child support. Shame on you if you don't.

    A man and woman hook up to have a baby. It's their baby. It just so happens that the woman develops the baby. That's the way it has been for all time. Women should figure that out. A man should have a say in whether or not a baby is aborted. Deal with that.
    A man should not have a say, because his life and health are not at stake during a pregnancy. In most cases, you should probably know who you are making a baby with well enough to know if she'll want an abortion. Shame on you if you don't.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    hippiemom wrote:
    A man should not have a say, because his life and health are not at stake during a pregnancy. In most cases, you should probably know who you are making a baby with well enough to know if she'll want an abortion. Shame on you if you don't.
    I personally believe that the man's say is a very important factor to consider for a female in the situation. Whatever compromises/lack-of-compromise plays out between the couple will have ramifications in the relationship. Effective problem solving is not about squeezing relevent variables out of the decision-making process. Ultimately, the final decision will be the woman's whether we like it or not.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    comebackgirl wrote:
    In my mind there is also a huge difference between a fetus and a baby. Again, I'm all for preventing the unwanted pregnancy to begin with. Let's focus on that!!!!

    OK. Don't have sex unless you're prepared to have a child. That was easy!
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    angelica wrote:
    I personally believe that the man's say is a very important factor to consider for a female in the situation. Whatever compromises/lack-of-compromise plays out between the couple will have ramifications in the relationship. Effective problem solving is not about squeezing relevent variables out of the decision-making process. Ultimately, the final decision will be the woman's whether we like it or not.
    I agree. I don't mean to imply that a man's thoughts and feelings aren't relevant or shouldn't be considered, just that they can't be the ones making the decision. As I've said many times, I think this is a "what if" situation that couples should discuss before they have sex, but I realize that doesn't always happen, and is probably quite rare with young people in particular.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    hippiemom wrote:
    Interesting. Can the fact that my body is attempting to destroy itself be taken as proof that I want to die?

    That's an interesting perspective as well. I guess the difference is you can communicate through other means. In the absence of communication, I think you can interpret growth and development as a sign the baby wants to live.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    know1 wrote:
    OK. Don't have sex unless you're prepared to have a child. That was easy!
    Now that's just silly.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    hippiemom wrote:
    Now that's just silly.

    To you it's silly. To me it's not.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    know1 wrote:
    That's an interesting perspective as well. I guess the difference is you can communicate through other means. In the absence of communication, I think you can interpret growth and development as a sign the baby wants to live.
    I interpret it as a biological process taking place (as biology tends to do) without regard to the wishes of the fetus, much as my situation is a biological process taking place without any regard for my preferences.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    know1 wrote:
    To you it's silly. To me it's not.
    It's silly as a proposed solution to the abortion dilemma, because of all the things humans might decide to do, that's the one LEAST likely to happen on anything resembling a wide scale.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • comebackwoman
    comebackwoman Posts: 7,271
    know1 wrote:
    OK. Don't have sex unless you're prepared to have a child. That was easy!


    Oh....if only it WERE that easy. I'll add that to "Don't attack other countries if you don't want them to attack you."
    There's a light when my baby's in my arms :)
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    comebackgirl wrote:
    Oh....if only it WERE that easy. I'll add that to "Don't attack other countries if you don't want them to attack you."

    It is that easy. I know from personal experience.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    know1 wrote:
    To you it's silly. To me it's not.
    It's not silly to my boyfriend, either.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • comebackwoman
    comebackwoman Posts: 7,271
    know1 wrote:
    It is that easy. I know from personal experience.


    Key word being "personal." Glad it's worked for you.
    There's a light when my baby's in my arms :)
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    Well in any case, this is why I don't usually bother with the abortion threads anymore. Nobody is ever convinced and the rationalizations of the pro-legal-abortion side just make me sick to my stomach.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.

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