i am amazed at how we as a group can continue to debate the same subject, over and over, and come back for more. i was actually thinking just the other day...wow.....been awhile since there's been an abortion thread here and how unusual. damn you LAO.
that said, i completely agree with all comebackgirl's points and i'll leave it at that. thank you so for eloquently speaking my views too.
Ha, ha!. I know, I know.. I was just thinking about abortion and war, you know. the typical dilemmas in life.
How many kids say to their mom, "Why didn't you abort me? You knew I didn't want to live."
Sadly, I hear kids say far too often that they want to die, wish they were never born, etc. They are usually growing up in homes where they are unwanted, unloved and mistreated. Not always, but often enough, their parents didn't want them in the first place. They didn't choose abortion, but they're slowly killing their kids anyway. I have more of a problem with that than with expelling a fetus from a uterus.
The whole issue is so much bigger than abortion. It's about educating people about how to make responsible decisions and making sure they have access to resources to do so. We need to create an environment in which people develop healthy self-esteem so that they can make positive choices. We need a society in which economics never has to enter into the decision about whether or not to continue a pregnancy. It's huge and abortion is just a tiny piece. We need to start with all of the other circumstances that lead up to abortion even being necessary.
I was hoping for more people in this thread to question their own beliefs like I did. I guess that didn't work.. my real question can't be answered I guess.
We do deal with it. It's just that you don't always approve of the way we deal with it. That's your problem ... deal with it.
yeah that's why it's called pro-choice, if you think it's immoral, deal with your unwanted pregnacy, it shouldn't be impose to others as a wrong value, choose...
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
I definitely agree with the accountability issue. We are responsible for our actions and our choices, including the difficult decision of abortion. And whatever choice someone makes (whether it's to forgo protection, have an abortion, place of adoption, or continue to term and parent), ultimately the person will have to deal with the ramifications of that choice.
This is the part that gets me. We are not only accountable for what we accept accountability for. Or we are not only accountable for what we see as our accountability. We are accountable for any ethical responsibility for our actions. And when we fall short there are consequences.
Many, many people are out of touch with the consequences of their own actions and therefore create effects that ripple forward, perpetuating cycles for years to come. Then we say "why me??". Many times we are unwilling to really search our deepest selves and to make our decisions in the light of insight.
It makes me sad that in our western world, it's often either/or--we're either for or against, and in the meantime, we don't allow ourselves to really honestly find what is right for our own hearts. And we pay big.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Why can't women realize that they are the baby makers? You have sex, and from that you may get pregnant. That's being a woman. Deal with it.
This fetus isn't developing in the man's body so he doesn't get to make the decision to have an abortion or not. And if he does get someone pregnant and she decides not to have an abortion, he gets to pay child support for 18-22 years. Deal with it.
I was hoping for more people in this thread to question their own beliefs like I did. I guess that didn't work.. my real question can't be answered I guess.
I have questioned my own beliefs, and I too am in a pickle. I do not feel the abortion is okay FOR ME in a birth control situation. However, I do not feel it should be illegal either. My moral delima should not be the reason other women (who are not of my ethnic, religious, spiritual, or cultural backgroud) do not have the right to choose. So here in lies the pickle: how can a support something that I don't support?
This fetus isn't developing in the man's body so he doesn't get to make the decision to have an abortion or not. And if he does get someone pregnant and she decides not to have an abortion, he gets to pay child support for 18-22 years. Deal with it.
Did I ever say the man shouldn't pay child support? In most cases you should probably know who you are making a baby with well enough to know whether or not they'll pay child support. Shame on you if you don't.
A man and woman hook up to have a baby. It's their baby. It just so happens that the woman develops the baby. That's the way it has been for all time. Women should figure that out. A man should have a say in whether or not a baby is aborted. Deal with that.
This is the part that gets me. We are not only accountable for what we accept accountability for. Or we are not only accountable for what we see as our accountability. We are accountable for any ethical responsibility for our actions. And when we fall short there are consequences.
Many, many people are out of touch with the consequences of their own actions and therefore create effects that ripple forward, perpetuating cycles for years to come. Then we say "why me??". Many times we are unwilling to really search our deepest selves and to make our decisions in the light of insight.
It makes me sad that in our western world, it's often either/or--we're either for or against, and in the meantime, we don't allow ourselves to really honestly find what is right for our own hearts. And we pay big.
I agree - many people are cut off from the consequences of their actions, not just with sex or abortion, but with so many things. I wish people could have more insight into themselves and their choices and make educated and informed decisions. We need to listen to ourselves and our intuition more.
I didn't mean to imply that YOUR decision to be celibate was about birth control, btw. I just meant I respected you for making that choice for yourself and that it is the best form of birth control (for other people), but that it might not be right for everyone.
I was hoping for more people in this thread to question their own beliefs like I did. I guess that didn't work.. my real question can't be answered I guess.
Your real question has been asked for decades, and I'd guess most of the debates probably turn out like this thread did.
Did I ever say the man shouldn't pay child support? In most cases you should probably know who you are making a baby with well enough to know whether or not they'll pay child support. Shame on you if you don't.
A man and woman hook up to have a baby. It's their baby. It just so happens that the woman develops the baby. That's the way it has been for all time. Women should figure that out. A man should have a say in whether or not a baby is aborted. Deal with that.
I never said that you mentioned child support. I'm just pointing out another tough fact. I agree - ideally they would know each other well enough before having sex, or having a baby.
I think women do have it figured out. They've been dealing with the consequences of pregnancy (wanted or unwanted) since the beginning of time.
The law does not give the man the right to decide if the pregnancy is terminated. That's just a fact.
I was hoping for more people in this thread to question their own beliefs like I did. I guess that didn't work.. my real question can't be answered I guess.
I guess it's because abortion is such a complicated issue. We start at looking at the ethics/morals involved in deciding to terminate a pregnancy, but then we have to start asking about the ethical and moral obligatons to the poor, to the sexually assaulted, etc. It's hard to look at it in a vacuum. The question gets bigger and bigger. I definitely think you got people looking at their beliefs, though!
I never said that you mentioned child support. I'm just pointing out another tough fact. I agree - ideally they would know each other well enough before having sex, or having a baby.
I think women do have it figured out. They've been dealing with the consequences of pregnancy (wanted or unwanted) since the beginning of time.
The law does not give the man the right to decide if the pregnancy is terminated. That's just a fact.
No, you don't deal with it. Dealing with it would be accepting the consequences of your actions. But, you take the selfish way out.
Abortion is one way of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. It's not a way you approve of, but it is indeed a way. There is no way to NOT deal with a pregnancy, it forces you to acknowledge it eventually, one way or another.
Did I ever say the man shouldn't pay child support? In most cases you should probably know who you are making a baby with well enough to know whether or not they'll pay child support. Shame on you if you don't.
A man and woman hook up to have a baby. It's their baby. It just so happens that the woman develops the baby. That's the way it has been for all time. Women should figure that out. A man should have a say in whether or not a baby is aborted. Deal with that.
A man should not have a say, because his life and health are not at stake during a pregnancy. In most cases, you should probably know who you are making a baby with well enough to know if she'll want an abortion. Shame on you if you don't.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
A man should not have a say, because his life and health are not at stake during a pregnancy. In most cases, you should probably know who you are making a baby with well enough to know if she'll want an abortion. Shame on you if you don't.
I personally believe that the man's say is a very important factor to consider for a female in the situation. Whatever compromises/lack-of-compromise plays out between the couple will have ramifications in the relationship. Effective problem solving is not about squeezing relevent variables out of the decision-making process. Ultimately, the final decision will be the woman's whether we like it or not.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
In my mind there is also a huge difference between a fetus and a baby. Again, I'm all for preventing the unwanted pregnancy to begin with. Let's focus on that!!!!
OK. Don't have sex unless you're prepared to have a child. That was easy!
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I personally believe that the man's say is a very important factor to consider for a female in the situation. Whatever compromises/lack-of-compromise plays out between the couple will have ramifications in the relationship. Effective problem solving is not about squeezing relevent variables out of the decision-making process. Ultimately, the final decision will be the woman's whether we like it or not.
I agree. I don't mean to imply that a man's thoughts and feelings aren't relevant or shouldn't be considered, just that they can't be the ones making the decision. As I've said many times, I think this is a "what if" situation that couples should discuss before they have sex, but I realize that doesn't always happen, and is probably quite rare with young people in particular.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Interesting. Can the fact that my body is attempting to destroy itself be taken as proof that I want to die?
That's an interesting perspective as well. I guess the difference is you can communicate through other means. In the absence of communication, I think you can interpret growth and development as a sign the baby wants to live.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
That's an interesting perspective as well. I guess the difference is you can communicate through other means. In the absence of communication, I think you can interpret growth and development as a sign the baby wants to live.
I interpret it as a biological process taking place (as biology tends to do) without regard to the wishes of the fetus, much as my situation is a biological process taking place without any regard for my preferences.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
It's silly as a proposed solution to the abortion dilemma, because of all the things humans might decide to do, that's the one LEAST likely to happen on anything resembling a wide scale.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Well in any case, this is why I don't usually bother with the abortion threads anymore. Nobody is ever convinced and the rationalizations of the pro-legal-abortion side just make me sick to my stomach.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Comments
that's your choice...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Sadly, I hear kids say far too often that they want to die, wish they were never born, etc. They are usually growing up in homes where they are unwanted, unloved and mistreated. Not always, but often enough, their parents didn't want them in the first place. They didn't choose abortion, but they're slowly killing their kids anyway. I have more of a problem with that than with expelling a fetus from a uterus.
The whole issue is so much bigger than abortion. It's about educating people about how to make responsible decisions and making sure they have access to resources to do so. We need to create an environment in which people develop healthy self-esteem so that they can make positive choices. We need a society in which economics never has to enter into the decision about whether or not to continue a pregnancy. It's huge and abortion is just a tiny piece. We need to start with all of the other circumstances that lead up to abortion even being necessary.
yeah that's why it's called pro-choice, if you think it's immoral, deal with your unwanted pregnacy, it shouldn't be impose to others as a wrong value, choose...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
This is the part that gets me. We are not only accountable for what we accept accountability for. Or we are not only accountable for what we see as our accountability. We are accountable for any ethical responsibility for our actions. And when we fall short there are consequences.
Many, many people are out of touch with the consequences of their own actions and therefore create effects that ripple forward, perpetuating cycles for years to come. Then we say "why me??". Many times we are unwilling to really search our deepest selves and to make our decisions in the light of insight.
It makes me sad that in our western world, it's often either/or--we're either for or against, and in the meantime, we don't allow ourselves to really honestly find what is right for our own hearts. And we pay big.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
This fetus isn't developing in the man's body so he doesn't get to make the decision to have an abortion or not. And if he does get someone pregnant and she decides not to have an abortion, he gets to pay child support for 18-22 years. Deal with it.
I have questioned my own beliefs, and I too am in a pickle. I do not feel the abortion is okay FOR ME in a birth control situation. However, I do not feel it should be illegal either. My moral delima should not be the reason other women (who are not of my ethnic, religious, spiritual, or cultural backgroud) do not have the right to choose. So here in lies the pickle: how can a support something that I don't support?
Did I ever say the man shouldn't pay child support? In most cases you should probably know who you are making a baby with well enough to know whether or not they'll pay child support. Shame on you if you don't.
A man and woman hook up to have a baby. It's their baby. It just so happens that the woman develops the baby. That's the way it has been for all time. Women should figure that out. A man should have a say in whether or not a baby is aborted. Deal with that.
No, you don't deal with it. Dealing with it would be accepting the consequences of your actions. But, you take the selfish way out.
I agree - many people are cut off from the consequences of their actions, not just with sex or abortion, but with so many things. I wish people could have more insight into themselves and their choices and make educated and informed decisions. We need to listen to ourselves and our intuition more.
I didn't mean to imply that YOUR decision to be celibate was about birth control, btw. I just meant I respected you for making that choice for yourself and that it is the best form of birth control (for other people), but that it might not be right for everyone.
Your real question has been asked for decades, and I'd guess most of the debates probably turn out like this thread did.
I never said that you mentioned child support. I'm just pointing out another tough fact. I agree - ideally they would know each other well enough before having sex, or having a baby.
I think women do have it figured out. They've been dealing with the consequences of pregnancy (wanted or unwanted) since the beginning of time.
The law does not give the man the right to decide if the pregnancy is terminated. That's just a fact.
I guess it's because abortion is such a complicated issue. We start at looking at the ethics/morals involved in deciding to terminate a pregnancy, but then we have to start asking about the ethical and moral obligatons to the poor, to the sexually assaulted, etc. It's hard to look at it in a vacuum. The question gets bigger and bigger. I definitely think you got people looking at their beliefs, though!
You are correct.
A man should not have a say, because his life and health are not at stake during a pregnancy. In most cases, you should probably know who you are making a baby with well enough to know if she'll want an abortion. Shame on you if you don't.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
OK. Don't have sex unless you're prepared to have a child. That was easy!
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
That's an interesting perspective as well. I guess the difference is you can communicate through other means. In the absence of communication, I think you can interpret growth and development as a sign the baby wants to live.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
To you it's silly. To me it's not.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Oh....if only it WERE that easy. I'll add that to "Don't attack other countries if you don't want them to attack you."
It is that easy. I know from personal experience.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Key word being "personal." Glad it's worked for you.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.