At what stage does abortion become murder?

Ahnimus

I'll attempt to provide my logic, as opposed to what I said earlier.

When abortion is illegal women that can't or don't want to raise their babies discard them in garbage cans. I see this as being much worse than abortion and is quite obviously illegal. However, people still do it. We are dealing with a natural phenomena, where certain people value certain things and others don't. The battle against prostitution is futile, because women have and always will sell sex for money. The same way women will always kill their babies. Not all women are sick enough to do those things, but some are, and no law will stop them from doing it. So what you have is the moral dilemma, is it better to allow abortion so that the baby doesn't fully develope, become born, gain conciousness, develope their senses and then suffer death. Or do you allow the choice, where women with strong value for life will make every attempt to raise their children, or at the very worst put it up for adoption. While the sick women go through numerous abortions. Or maybe we just outlaw abortion and have to deal with babies in garbage cans again. The problem with legal abortion, in the sense that anyone can do it anytime, is that a lot of honest women will do it without thinking. Or maybe they don't value a fertilized egg the same as a living, breathing child. They are fundamentally two different things. A miscarriage, is arguably worse than an abortion because it's choiceless and usually occurs during fetile development. I know several women who have expereinced miscarriages. I don't know any that have had abortions. My ex-girlfriend swore that if she ever became pregnant she would have an abortion, but now that she is pregnant she is having the child. Just as I excepted, if she was a crack addict, I would have guessed differently.

decides2dream

Ahnimus wrote:

Or maybe they don't value a fertilized egg the same as a living, breathing child. They are fundamentally two different things. A miscarriage, is arguably worse than an abortion because it's choiceless and usually occurs during fetile development. I know several women who have expereinced miscarriages.

interesting points, and things i have thought of often in regards to this issue. particularly the miscarriage issue. a woman's body will spontaneously abort fertilized eggs/embryos/fetuses...all on it's own. sometimes the 'whys' of such can be determined, oftentimes it cannot. it is believed by many in the medical community that a very high # of fertile, sexually active women have had miscarriages...and that in fact most women will experience at least one miscarriage in their lives....oftentimes without even knowing it!

it is very possible to get pregnant early in your cycle, so that gives you anywhere from 2-4 weeks to be pregnant unawares...and then if your body miscarries before your next menstrual cycle begins, one would never know. now, add in the women with irregular cycles, and one could be pregnant almost 2 months unawares, and then miscarry, again never knowing. finally, add in the women actively trying who do miscarry at many stages of the pregnancy, well aware it has happened. that's many miscarriages.

point is, our bodies oftentimes spontaneously abort all on their own. i mean, a miscarriage is just that - a naturally occuring abortion. so then, our own bodies at times rejects "the life process of another who is unique, complete with their very own DNA"...the beginnings of what may grow into a human child. it is a natural occurance, is quite common....are our own bodies 'murdering' children? i think not. so if a woman's body can expel a fetus at 2, 4 or 8 weeks, and on, a miscarriage.......and another woman chooses to induce an abortion at 8 weeks.....i honestly don't see the 'moral' issue. sure, one has no choice in the matter, the other is a choice...but the point is, the end result is the same. just my thoughts...

angelica

decides2dream wrote:

interesting points, and things i have thought of often in regards to this issue. particularly the miscarriage issue. a woman's body will spontaneously abort fertilized eggs/embryos/fetuses...all on it's own. sometimes the 'whys' of such can be determined, oftentimes it cannot. it is believed by many in the medical community that a very high # of fertile, sexually active women have had miscarriages...and that in fact most women will experience at least one miscarriage in their lives....oftentimes without even knowing it!

it is very possible to get pregnant early in your cycle, so that gives you anywhere from 2-4 weeks to be pregnant unawares...and then if your body miscarries before your next menstrual cycle begins, one would never know. now, add in the women with irregular cycles, and one could be pregnant almost 2 months unawares, and then miscarry, again never knowing. finally, add in the women actively trying who do miscarry at many stages of the pregnancy, well aware it has happened. that's many miscarriages.

point is, our bodies oftentimes spontaneously abort all on their own. i mean, a miscarriage is just that - a naturally occuring abortion. so then, our own bodies at times rejects "the life process of another who is unique, complete with their very own DNA"...the beginnings of what may grow into a human child. it is a natural occurance, is quite common....are our own bodies 'murdering' children? i think not. so if a woman's body can expel a fetus at 2, 4 or 8 weeks, and on, a miscarriage.......and another woman chooses to induce an abortion at 8 weeks.....i honestly don't see the 'moral' issue. sure, one has no choice in the matter, the other is a choice...but the point is, the end result is the same. just my thoughts...

In my opinion, the naturally occuring death of another including through natural abortion is different than giving ourselves permission to take another life deliberately. The issue is: is it alright to take a life that is not ours to take?

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

In my opinion, the naturally occuring death of another including through natural abortion is different than giving ourselves permission to take another life deliberately. The issue is: is it alright to take a life that is not ours to take?

I still think it's a moral dilemma and people will do whatever they want, regardless of the law. I use prostitution as an example, like abortion, it has been going on for centuries, no amount of laws or jail time changes that. But when we look at prostitution in your average city we see skantily dressed women standing on street corners and down dark alleyways, women that often times are addicted to chemical drugs and have pimps to protect them, women that get beat up by their pimps and their tricks. In Nevada where prostitution is legal the scene looks a lot different, they operate out of classy hotels, they are cleaned up and generally not addicted to drugs, they don't get beaten up, and they aren't out there in the street posing for the passing cars. This is the difference between what someone will do legally and illegally. Illegal abortion involves coat hangers and babies in garbage cans, and various other methods. Legal abortion is in the sterile atmosphere of a medical clinic, it uses more humane methods.

The issue should not be, "should women be allowed to do it?" or "is it moral?" the question should be "Do we want women using coat hangers or discarding babies in garbage cans? Or do we want them to do it under the care of a licensed practitioner?"

Most laws and doctors discourage abortion, and restrict the timeframe in which an abortion can be performed.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

I still think it's a moral dilemma and people will do whatever they want, regardless of the law.

I completely agree

The issue should not be, "should women be allowed to do it?" or "is it moral?" the question should be "Do we want women using coat hangers or discarding babies in garbage cans? Or do we want them to do it under the care of a licensed practitioner?"

Most laws and doctors discourage abortion, and restrict the timeframe in which an abortion can be performed.

I understand your point of view and your perspective of what the question should be.

In my case, I'm appealling for us to open our awareness to consider all points within our decisions and to discern, carefully, what we morally get behind so that we may choose with awareness and responsibility.

decides2dream

angelica wrote:

In my opinion, the naturally occuring death of another including through natural abortion is different than giving ourselves permission to take another life deliberately. The issue is: is it alright to take a life that is not ours to take?

oh i know where you are coming from, and i answered that question directly earlier. i have already said, imo, yes it is ok. but those are my personally held beliefs and i don't expect all to agree and support them...just that i believe one should leave such decisions up to the inidividual women to make on their own, and not try to legislate their choices, and what should be their choices. i am of the belief if it grows in my body, it's my choice. i merely take the idea that if such naturally occurs in our body, the idea of choosing to do the very same....not such a stretch imo. bottomline....i don't consider it 'murder'...or even taking a life. yes, the cells are alive, living, no one denies that...and yes, if allowed to grow and continue, and all goes well, would result in a living breathing child....i still consider ending the potential of such a very big distinction. but that's me.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

I completely agree


I understand your point of view and your perspective of what the question should be.

In my case, I'm appealling for us to open our awareness to consider all points within our decisions and to discern, carefully, what we morally get behind so that we may choose with awareness and responsibility.

Certainly information is the key. Women should be well informed of the procedures, risks and moral controversy of abortion.

angelica

decides2dream wrote:

... but those are my personally held beliefs and i don't expect all to agree and support them...

I completely accept and respect where you are coming from. I wish all people could walk the fine line of being well aware of, discerning and comfortable or even strong minded in their own beliefs, and yet understand that they can only decide for themselves. I appreciate that you make the effort to walk those fine lines.

Vedderlution_Baby

Okay, is there anyone here who believe that abortion is wrong no matter what the circumstances? Circumstances like rape for instance. If so, why?

By the way, this is not leading into some big point I'm going to make in five posts, I just want to know.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

Certainly information is the key. Women should be well informed of the procedures, risks and moral controversy of abortion.

I agree. Beyond the moral controversy, I also believe it is key for each woman to search her own subjective moral and value systems; her emotional inner voice, etc, and to follow her own inner guidance. It is up to each woman to give the facts and the objective feedback her own personal inner meaning based on her very own ethics. It is up to each woman to translate such facts and data, processed through her inner filters, so that she may make objective decisions that are aligned with who she is as a person.

comebackwoman

angelica wrote:

I agree. Beyond the moral controversy, I also believe it is key for each woman to search her own subjective moral and value systems; her emotional inner voice, etc, and to follow her own inner guidance. It is up to each woman to give the facts and the objective feedback her own personal inner meaning based on her very own ethics. It is up to each woman to translate such facts and data, processed through her inner filters, so that she may make objective decisions that are aligned with who she is as a person.

Well said. That is true for so many issues, beyond abortion. The importance of the inner voice cannot be under-estimated.

angelica

comebackgirl wrote:

Well said. That is true for so many issues, beyond abortion. The importance of the inner voice cannot be under-estimated.

Thanks. I agree, it's true across the board for all our human issues. When we begin to activate our personal subjective Self and keep our energy in ourselves while processing the objective world, we'll begin living in synch with life in each moment rather than creating imbalance and comeback by being personally out of touch with our actions.