I would ask, is it up to us--you, me, anyone--to decide that at any point it's okay to take a life that is progressing and that is not our very own life?
The mere cells you are speaking of are a new life--the cells are no longer the mother or the father, but a new developing human. Given this, do you still feel that because this life has not developed traits that you feel give it it's humanness, that it is not valid as a developing person?
I'm not speaking about other issues here, such as limiting choice. I'm speaking to the specific point: do we have the right to end a life that is not our own in the context of abortion?
Hi Ange,
I'm against abortion is all forms and in all cases - it's principle of killing that gets me. It's a halt to an incredibly miraculous process. A birth into this universe, and of such complex magnitude relative to our surroundings. It blows my mind that it's even possible. Unfortunately there are mini universes within this universe (peoples minds) that have the power and ability to clash with the two scales of existence.
I do think at some point there is no sentience (i.e. self awareness) relative to our own. What point past cell division this is, is probably shortly after nerve endings are formed, or even the first beginnings of brain. If it's going to happen it really can never be too early, as that would take me back to the moment of conception not happening in the first place.
However people will do what they desire in life, and we are facing population issues. Women will continue to hurt themselves and find alternative methods, quite possibly taking their own lives in the process.
Somtimes we just have to accept that people do what they do, and try to find good in it. i.e. stem cell research to enhance our lives further.
I don't believe abortion can ever be stopped by anyone or group in today's society. It's just not economically and logically possible anymore.
Do we have the right to kill? No we don't. (Should we all be vegans then?) tough one...
It is the destruction of a creation of a most wonderous form. A universe unto itself, and of subsequent infinity therein.
However we are products of our environment and of the reality that surrounds us. And we must face both realities as circumstances permit.
In some ways I can say we've learned much, and built these great concrete cities full of technology. In the same breath, I could also say we really haven't learned much at all.
I am speaking in relation to a simple "colonial style" life that we would probably be a lot healthier (exercise daily) and loving (close and (larger) family unity) in a quiet farming environment of creation. But, for some reason, man saw outerspace as the "prize", and here we all are.
I always wonder why it is that we must want what we can't have or understand. We look up and saw stars and we wanted to touch the face of "god". That has been Einstein's dream and the dreams of many, many people every day through hope and prayer as well.
Fascinating really. God can be (and is) here, all around us in everly single living thing and piece of matter both visible and invisible, so really, we can already see and touch the face of god.
It is our perception of God and who he is that is flawed and GREATLY misunderstood. I think we are god, and everything we can see touch of smell is god around us and within us.
It is the destruction of a creation of a most wonderous form. A universe unto itself, and of subsequent infinity therein.
Well put.
I don't concern myself with any of the judgment aspects of abortion, pertaining to anyone else or their rights. We each hold our beliefs and choose our actions for very sacred reasons that are between us and all of Life. We each must live out what contracts we make within life, and only we can live out our own choices and the ramifications of such choices. I can only be true to my own personal truth. In the end, we're accountable for ourselves and for no other. All we can do is the best we can do.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I don't concern myself with any of the judgment aspects of abortion, pertaining to anyone else or their rights. We each hold our beliefs and choose our actions for very sacred reasons that are between us and all of Life. We each must live out what contracts we make within life, and only we can live out our own choices and the ramifications of such choices. I can only be true to my own personal truth. In the end, we're accountable for ourselves and for no other. All we can do is the best we can do.
That is my philosophy as well. And it hope many, or all, come to realize and appreciate it as well. Good Karma is a lot more than what people really think it is (in my observations). It is the great universal rythm and resonating frequency of true understanding in this reality and beyond all that can be imagined.
It exists above and below (in the atomic magnitude and scale sense) and it filters down into us from "greater" through our highly adaptive and tuned antennae (brains) to the point that it affects every single molecule within us - smaller (i.e. stress kills, love enables) How cool is that?
These are the things mankind would do well to research at the government level and try to better understand and convey. NASA is trying hard in this regard. I urge people to investigate string theory (especially) and quantum physics at length. Deep stuff, however it is the bleeding edge of all our scientific physical understanding thus far.
Where does the sanctity of sperm itself come into the equation?
Am i murderer if i 'kill' sperm when masturbating on to a tissue or withdrawing and letting them flounder on a bedspread? If not, why not. It's alive, it's 'human' by your above mentioned standards.
Am i murderer?
Yes. Wanking is a crime and you should get life for it
On topic,, i'd say before about two months, provided that the woman/girl has had a psychological consultation.
It's probably not a good idea to abort a child after it's been born. Like before abortion was legal, crackheads would chuck their babies in garbage cans and kill their babies because they couldn't deal with it.
So I'd say as long as it isn't already born, and there is a legitimate reason for aborting the child, such as mother's a crackhead and the baby will be born with some sick abnormality and will have severe malnutrition because the mother is a crackhead!
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
you can't...plus it's not murder, it's something else, murder is killing a human being, not killing a possible human being? Not sure if that makes sense...
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
you can't...plus it's not murder, it's something else, murder is killing a human being, not killing a possible human being? Not sure if that makes sense...
It's really all about relativity. What is realative to you both physically and mentally.
We are "killing" things all the time. When you cut the lawn we are killing life. When you squash a bug, pour bleach on a stain to eradicate it, boil water, cook food. You name it, it is a form of energy transfer. A death of one entity that leads to the energy shift and regeneration of another. There are wars being fought within our bodies, cells being invaded killed etc.. etc.. when you scrath an itch you even kill cells of your skin. When you spit something dies in your saliva once outside your body.
It's all in the perception of it. There are echoes of size and dimension that resonate both downwards and upwards in scale. What is important is how much you are in tune to it both physically and mentally.
Everything has a harmonic frequency. The earth, the sun, our bodies, molecules, atoms. You put a name to it, it resonates
(i.e it's alive), down to the smallest possible particles imaginable, and onwards to infinity (both up and down in magnitude). You control infinite universes within your own body, and they react to your thoughts and physical actions as well to determine your well being. Infinity can be found on the tip of your finger. The smallest particle you can think of has no end and is infinite.
There can never be at any point be "nothing". Think about that for a bit.
Abortion is one way of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. It's not a way you approve of, but it is indeed a way. There is no way to NOT deal with a pregnancy, it forces you to acknowledge it eventually, one way or another.
A man should not have a say, because his life and health are not at stake during a pregnancy. In most cases, you should probably know who you are making a baby with well enough to know if she'll want an abortion. Shame on you if you don't.
agreed and agreed, as always, on this issue. always a great voice of reason on the issue.
eidt - rightondude....right on, dude.
seriously. bottomline, generally speaking, we value human life above all else, and some value potential human life to a very great degree as well. it is all a 'line'....and a choice, in ALL areas.
It's really all about relativity. What is realative to you both physically and mentally.
We are "killing" things all the time. When you cut the lawn we are killing life. When you squash a bug, pour bleach on a stain to eradicate it, boil water, cook food. You name it, it is a form of energy transfer. A death of one entity that leads to the energy shift and regeneration of another. There are wars being fought within our bodies, cells being invaded killed etc.. etc.. when you scrath an itch you even kill cells of your skin. When you spit something dies in your saliva once outside your body.
It's all in the perception of it. There are echoes of size and dimension that resonate both downwards and upwards in scale. What is important is how much you are in tune to it both physically and mentally.
Everything has a harmonic frequency. The earth, the sun, our bodies, molecules, atoms. You put a name to it, it resonates
(i.e it's alive), down to the smallest possible particles imaginable, and onwards to infinity (both up and down in magnitude). You control infinite universes within your own body, and they react to your thoughts and physical actions as well to determine your well being. Infinity can be found on the tip of your finger. The smallest particle you can think of has no end and is infinite.
There can never be at any point be "nothing". Think about that for a bit.
Pretty trippy stuff...
Now here is a post that I can relate to. This is an argument that I have considered and used before, but it's usually in relation to the animal rights people.
I do think there's a distinction to be made between human life and other life, but you make a very good point.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
At what stage does abortion become murder? ..and who decides this stage?
I'm pro-choice, but I always question my own beliefs..
At what moment is it "ok" to scramble a developing humans brains?
1 month into pregnacy?.. 3 months?.. 5.871 months?.. maybe 18 years of age?
Maybe war is just a big post-poned abortion for many "unwanted" humans..
At what point do humans become self-aware? Feel their first pain???
At what second does a human life become worthy of being saved?
Erring on the early side 20 weeks, but closer to 25 weeks in most cases, in answer to all your questions. Before that there is no complex cerebral cortex activity and no major central nervous system activity. An adult in this state is considered dead and cannot me murdered, only unplugged.
But if we're unsure of the point of the genesis of life, shouldn't we err on the side of NOT MURDERING? I guess that just seems like common sense to me and nobody else.
There is no genesis of life. Life is a continuous process. Nothing living arises from what is not alive.
If sperm is 50% of a human, when you add sperm and egg, what do you get? You get a new life. How far back do we go? How about to where the new life begins? It's not like we can just ascribe the beginning of life to it and declare life beginning at, say, when the life develops feelings. The new life begins when the new life does begin. When two individual cells from two separate people come together and create a synapse that sparks the beginning of a new life, it's pretty clear what is happening.
We can now bring mammals to term using only the DNA from the mother. There is no conception; a virgin birth. Conception is irrelevant.
Very interesting. So because this new life would be in my body, even though it possesses it's very own DNA, completely separate from me, you think the life is my own? Do you mean because it's in my "possession"? Or because it happens to be inside my body instead of outside of it? It sounds like you are saying because it is dependant upon me for survival that it is therefore my life, even though it is an entirely unique person unto itself. I'd like to hear some other opinions from others out there.
DNA does not confer individuality, for we see twins as two individual persons. What we value is the unique personality of life, not life itself. This doesn't occur before complex cerebral cortex activity.
Erring on the early side 20 weeks, but closer to 25 weeks in most cases, in answer to all your questions. Before that there is no complex cerebral cortex activity and no major central nervous system activity. An adult in this state is considered dead and cannot me murdered, only unplugged.
There is no genesis of life. Life is a continuous process. Nothing living arises from what is not alive.
We can now bring mammals to term using only the DNA from the mother. There is no conception; a virgin birth. Conception is irrelevant.
DNA does not confer individuality, for we see twins as two individual persons. What we value is the unique personality of life, not life itself. This doesn't occur before complex cerebral cortex activity.
Other people's sex is none of your business. Save your counsil for your children, not legislation.
Thank you for your always valuable contributions to these threads. Earlier today I wanted to quote a previous post of yours and I didn't have time to find it. Here are the links (it's a two-parter), I think it's highly relevant ...
If you're using that statement to justify abortion, then we might as well be able to murder anyone without punishment.
The point is conception is an arbitrary step in the process of life. What we value is not "life", a fly is life. Sperm is human life. But it is the unique personality of life that we value. A beating heart, lungs, limbs, face, eyes are all transplantable. They all support the unique personality of a functional cerebral cortex.
There is no genesis of life. Life is a continuous process. Nothing living arises from what is not alive.
There are origins of new human life all the time. Because life is a continuous process does not negate the beginnings of new and unique human life. We can blur the lines, yet individual, unique human life remains individual, unique human life.
Genesis: The coming into being of something; the origin.
Conception is irrelevant.
The genesis of my children's lives arose from their conception many years ago. Every human being on this planet arose from conception. I see that as far from irrelevent.
The beginning of new, unique human life is highly relevent. Any process, conception or otherwise, from which such beginnings take place is highly relevent.
DNA does not confer individuality...
When my children were conceived, they were unique individuals developing in process towards their potential. They still are. They were not their mother or their father. I referred to DNA in that sense--because they were in their mother's body did not make them their mother. They had their own unique and entirely separate DNA.
The DNA we each contained at our very own conception held the genetic instructions for our biological development. Although the outcome to our "instructions" or blueprints are not yet actualised in the earliest stages, our entire potential is contained there and then.
Do we have the right to end the life process of another who is unique, complete with their very own DNA?
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Do we have the right to end the life process of another who is unique, complete with their very own DNA?
imo, yes.
when they are cells growing in my body, i have every right to terminate whatever future potential those cells may become.....be they cancer, or a possible human. it grows and lives in my body, so my choice. of course, i respect everyone's right to make that choice for themselves. that's it for me, respect the individual choice.
sundaysilence, i truly appreciate all your posts, but the info above, extremely good. i'd never have thought as far along as 20-25 weeks for cerbral cortex activity, or maybe it's simplyi am so far removed from science study i do not recall all this info...but thanks for posting it. for me, that's it. if indeed such would be considered dead in an adult human, i am unconcerned about terminating the potential growth of cells into becoming a human being later in their development. my main concern would be causing any pain. if i can avoid that, i have no moral qualms about it.
Now here is a post that I can relate to. This is an argument that I have considered and used before, but it's usually in relation to the animal rights people.
I do think there's a distinction to be made between human life and other life, but you make a very good point.
That is my scientific analogy. As someone mentioned earlier, it's the notion of killing and how that relates to people's idealogy. Do we have the right to kill?
Sometimes I scoop up a bug in my house and chuck it outside in the garden. Sometimes I just whack it...(hehe...go easy on the jokes here).
I kill spiders in my house without thinking. They are too nasty and fast to try and collect. I always wonder what gives me the right to kill anything I have the conscious decision over. We kill billions of bacteria every morning when we have a shower. That's a lot of killing really when you think about it. Should we use soap? Prehistoric man never would, and jump in a lake or stream. We use soap because people think other people stink or the media has sold us on this idea. Natural body odor used to be a sexual attactant, and is still considered by many. Pheremones in sweat make us horny. Male secrete testosterone in their sweat to attact females for sex. So why do we shower with soap (antibacterial soap now as well) when we are comitting mass genocide of harmless bacteria on our own bodies daily?
Quantum physics tells us a single dinstinct object can be both in one place and everywhere at the same (this is proven and can actually be seen). When we focus our attention on that object it stands still and exists in one physical location only. When our attention fades from it, it then goes on to exist simultaneously in various places all at the same time. Freaky stuff!
It's all the same. People can focus more easiily on human life over other forms of live, however one form of life does not take priority over the other. We assume it to be so, and choose to make it so. That is not the "true reality" of the situation, as is now coming into our understanding based on modern scientic (proven and observable) phonema.
I say we do not have the right to knowingly kill anything. Not only that, but we shouldn't. If you're going to kill something consume it to make it part of you (stem cell research) You then, in turn, "honor it" and return it and yourself to "balance". The term "honor it" calls for a few more paragraphs of scientific babble, but you get the idea.
Alas, we are prisoners of circumstance. I hate to say it, but prisoners of overpopulation.
I'll attempt to provide my logic, as opposed to what I said earlier.
When abortion is illegal women that can't or don't want to raise their babies discard them in garbage cans. I see this as being much worse than abortion and is quite obviously illegal. However, people still do it. We are dealing with a natural phenomena, where certain people value certain things and others don't. The battle against prostitution is futile, because women have and always will sell sex for money. The same way women will always kill their babies. Not all women are sick enough to do those things, but some are, and no law will stop them from doing it. So what you have is the moral dilemma, is it better to allow abortion so that the baby doesn't fully develope, become born, gain conciousness, develope their senses and then suffer death. Or do you allow the choice, where women with strong value for life will make every attempt to raise their children, or at the very worst put it up for adoption. While the sick women go through numerous abortions. Or maybe we just outlaw abortion and have to deal with babies in garbage cans again. The problem with legal abortion, in the sense that anyone can do it anytime, is that a lot of honest women will do it without thinking. Or maybe they don't value a fertilized egg the same as a living, breathing child. They are fundamentally two different things. A miscarriage, is arguably worse than an abortion because it's choiceless and usually occurs during fetile development. I know several women who have expereinced miscarriages. I don't know any that have had abortions. My ex-girlfriend swore that if she ever became pregnant she would have an abortion, but now that she is pregnant she is having the child. Just as I excepted, if she was a crack addict, I would have guessed differently.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Or maybe they don't value a fertilized egg the same as a living, breathing child. They are fundamentally two different things. A miscarriage, is arguably worse than an abortion because it's choiceless and usually occurs during fetile development. I know several women who have expereinced miscarriages.
interesting points, and things i have thought of often in regards to this issue. particularly the miscarriage issue. a woman's body will spontaneously abort fertilized eggs/embryos/fetuses...all on it's own. sometimes the 'whys' of such can be determined, oftentimes it cannot. it is believed by many in the medical community that a very high # of fertile, sexually active women have had miscarriages...and that in fact most women will experience at least one miscarriage in their lives....oftentimes without even knowing it!
it is very possible to get pregnant early in your cycle, so that gives you anywhere from 2-4 weeks to be pregnant unawares...and then if your body miscarries before your next menstrual cycle begins, one would never know. now, add in the women with irregular cycles, and one could be pregnant almost 2 months unawares, and then miscarry, again never knowing. finally, add in the women actively trying who do miscarry at many stages of the pregnancy, well aware it has happened. that's many miscarriages.
point is, our bodies oftentimes spontaneously abort all on their own. i mean, a miscarriage is just that - a naturally occuring abortion. so then, our own bodies at times rejects "the life process of another who is unique, complete with their very own DNA"...the beginnings of what may grow into a human child. it is a natural occurance, is quite common....are our own bodies 'murdering' children? i think not. so if a woman's body can expel a fetus at 2, 4 or 8 weeks, and on, a miscarriage.......and another woman chooses to induce an abortion at 8 weeks.....i honestly don't see the 'moral' issue. sure, one has no choice in the matter, the other is a choice...but the point is, the end result is the same. just my thoughts...
interesting points, and things i have thought of often in regards to this issue. particularly the miscarriage issue. a woman's body will spontaneously abort fertilized eggs/embryos/fetuses...all on it's own. sometimes the 'whys' of such can be determined, oftentimes it cannot. it is believed by many in the medical community that a very high # of fertile, sexually active women have had miscarriages...and that in fact most women will experience at least one miscarriage in their lives....oftentimes without even knowing it!
it is very possible to get pregnant early in your cycle, so that gives you anywhere from 2-4 weeks to be pregnant unawares...and then if your body miscarries before your next menstrual cycle begins, one would never know. now, add in the women with irregular cycles, and one could be pregnant almost 2 months unawares, and then miscarry, again never knowing. finally, add in the women actively trying who do miscarry at many stages of the pregnancy, well aware it has happened. that's many miscarriages.
point is, our bodies oftentimes spontaneously abort all on their own. i mean, a miscarriage is just that - a naturally occuring abortion. so then, our own bodies at times rejects "the life process of another who is unique, complete with their very own DNA"...the beginnings of what may grow into a human child. it is a natural occurance, is quite common....are our own bodies 'murdering' children? i think not. so if a woman's body can expel a fetus at 2, 4 or 8 weeks, and on, a miscarriage.......and another woman chooses to induce an abortion at 8 weeks.....i honestly don't see the 'moral' issue. sure, one has no choice in the matter, the other is a choice...but the point is, the end result is the same. just my thoughts...
In my opinion, the naturally occuring death of another including through natural abortion is different than giving ourselves permission to take another life deliberately. The issue is: is it alright to take a life that is not ours to take?
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
In my opinion, the naturally occuring death of another including through natural abortion is different than giving ourselves permission to take another life deliberately. The issue is: is it alright to take a life that is not ours to take?
I still think it's a moral dilemma and people will do whatever they want, regardless of the law. I use prostitution as an example, like abortion, it has been going on for centuries, no amount of laws or jail time changes that. But when we look at prostitution in your average city we see skantily dressed women standing on street corners and down dark alleyways, women that often times are addicted to chemical drugs and have pimps to protect them, women that get beat up by their pimps and their tricks. In Nevada where prostitution is legal the scene looks a lot different, they operate out of classy hotels, they are cleaned up and generally not addicted to drugs, they don't get beaten up, and they aren't out there in the street posing for the passing cars. This is the difference between what someone will do legally and illegally. Illegal abortion involves coat hangers and babies in garbage cans, and various other methods. Legal abortion is in the sterile atmosphere of a medical clinic, it uses more humane methods.
The issue should not be, "should women be allowed to do it?" or "is it moral?" the question should be "Do we want women using coat hangers or discarding babies in garbage cans? Or do we want them to do it under the care of a licensed practitioner?"
Most laws and doctors discourage abortion, and restrict the timeframe in which an abortion can be performed.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I still think it's a moral dilemma and people will do whatever they want, regardless of the law.
I completely agree
The issue should not be, "should women be allowed to do it?" or "is it moral?" the question should be "Do we want women using coat hangers or discarding babies in garbage cans? Or do we want them to do it under the care of a licensed practitioner?"
Most laws and doctors discourage abortion, and restrict the timeframe in which an abortion can be performed.
I understand your point of view and your perspective of what the question should be.
In my case, I'm appealling for us to open our awareness to consider all points within our decisions and to discern, carefully, what we morally get behind so that we may choose with awareness and responsibility.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
In my opinion, the naturally occuring death of another including through natural abortion is different than giving ourselves permission to take another life deliberately. The issue is: is it alright to take a life that is not ours to take?
oh i know where you are coming from, and i answered that question directly earlier. i have already said, imo, yes it is ok. but those are my personally held beliefs and i don't expect all to agree and support them...just that i believe one should leave such decisions up to the inidividual women to make on their own, and not try to legislate their choices, and what should be their choices. i am of the belief if it grows in my body, it's my choice. i merely take the idea that if such naturally occurs in our body, the idea of choosing to do the very same....not such a stretch imo. bottomline....i don't consider it 'murder'...or even taking a life. yes, the cells are alive, living, no one denies that...and yes, if allowed to grow and continue, and all goes well, would result in a living breathing child....i still consider ending the potential of such a very big distinction. but that's me.
I understand your point of view and your perspective of what the question should be.
In my case, I'm appealling for us to open our awareness to consider all points within our decisions and to discern, carefully, what we morally get behind so that we may choose with awareness and responsibility.
Certainly information is the key. Women should be well informed of the procedures, risks and moral controversy of abortion.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
... but those are my personally held beliefs and i don't expect all to agree and support them...
I completely accept and respect where you are coming from. I wish all people could walk the fine line of being well aware of, discerning and comfortable or even strong minded in their own beliefs, and yet understand that they can only decide for themselves. I appreciate that you make the effort to walk those fine lines.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Certainly information is the key. Women should be well informed of the procedures, risks and moral controversy of abortion.
I agree. Beyond the moral controversy, I also believe it is key for each woman to search her own subjective moral and value systems; her emotional inner voice, etc, and to follow her own inner guidance. It is up to each woman to give the facts and the objective feedback her own personal inner meaning based on her very own ethics. It is up to each woman to translate such facts and data, processed through her inner filters, so that she may make objective decisions that are aligned with who she is as a person.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Comments
Hi Ange,
I'm against abortion is all forms and in all cases - it's principle of killing that gets me. It's a halt to an incredibly miraculous process. A birth into this universe, and of such complex magnitude relative to our surroundings. It blows my mind that it's even possible. Unfortunately there are mini universes within this universe (peoples minds) that have the power and ability to clash with the two scales of existence.
I do think at some point there is no sentience (i.e. self awareness) relative to our own. What point past cell division this is, is probably shortly after nerve endings are formed, or even the first beginnings of brain. If it's going to happen it really can never be too early, as that would take me back to the moment of conception not happening in the first place.
However people will do what they desire in life, and we are facing population issues. Women will continue to hurt themselves and find alternative methods, quite possibly taking their own lives in the process.
Somtimes we just have to accept that people do what they do, and try to find good in it. i.e. stem cell research to enhance our lives further.
I don't believe abortion can ever be stopped by anyone or group in today's society. It's just not economically and logically possible anymore.
Do we have the right to kill? No we don't. (Should we all be vegans then?) tough one...
It is the destruction of a creation of a most wonderous form. A universe unto itself, and of subsequent infinity therein.
However we are products of our environment and of the reality that surrounds us. And we must face both realities as circumstances permit.
In some ways I can say we've learned much, and built these great concrete cities full of technology. In the same breath, I could also say we really haven't learned much at all.
I am speaking in relation to a simple "colonial style" life that we would probably be a lot healthier (exercise daily) and loving (close and (larger) family unity) in a quiet farming environment of creation. But, for some reason, man saw outerspace as the "prize", and here we all are.
I always wonder why it is that we must want what we can't have or understand. We look up and saw stars and we wanted to touch the face of "god". That has been Einstein's dream and the dreams of many, many people every day through hope and prayer as well.
Fascinating really. God can be (and is) here, all around us in everly single living thing and piece of matter both visible and invisible, so really, we can already see and touch the face of god.
It is our perception of God and who he is that is flawed and GREATLY misunderstood. I think we are god, and everything we can see touch of smell is god around us and within us.
Why look any further for evidence?
I don't concern myself with any of the judgment aspects of abortion, pertaining to anyone else or their rights. We each hold our beliefs and choose our actions for very sacred reasons that are between us and all of Life. We each must live out what contracts we make within life, and only we can live out our own choices and the ramifications of such choices. I can only be true to my own personal truth. In the end, we're accountable for ourselves and for no other. All we can do is the best we can do.
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That is my philosophy as well. And it hope many, or all, come to realize and appreciate it as well. Good Karma is a lot more than what people really think it is (in my observations). It is the great universal rythm and resonating frequency of true understanding in this reality and beyond all that can be imagined.
It exists above and below (in the atomic magnitude and scale sense) and it filters down into us from "greater" through our highly adaptive and tuned antennae (brains) to the point that it affects every single molecule within us - smaller (i.e. stress kills, love enables) How cool is that?
These are the things mankind would do well to research at the government level and try to better understand and convey. NASA is trying hard in this regard. I urge people to investigate string theory (especially) and quantum physics at length. Deep stuff, however it is the bleeding edge of all our scientific physical understanding thus far.
Yes. Wanking is a crime and you should get life for it
On topic,, i'd say before about two months, provided that the woman/girl has had a psychological consultation.
Human Beings' whole existence is an abortion if you look at it this way.
the other foot in the gutter
sweet smell that they adore
I think I'd rather smother
-The Replacements-
So I'd say as long as it isn't already born, and there is a legitimate reason for aborting the child, such as mother's a crackhead and the baby will be born with some sick abnormality and will have severe malnutrition because the mother is a crackhead!
Stop by:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=14678777351&ref=mf
It's really all about relativity. What is realative to you both physically and mentally.
We are "killing" things all the time. When you cut the lawn we are killing life. When you squash a bug, pour bleach on a stain to eradicate it, boil water, cook food. You name it, it is a form of energy transfer. A death of one entity that leads to the energy shift and regeneration of another. There are wars being fought within our bodies, cells being invaded killed etc.. etc.. when you scrath an itch you even kill cells of your skin. When you spit something dies in your saliva once outside your body.
It's all in the perception of it. There are echoes of size and dimension that resonate both downwards and upwards in scale. What is important is how much you are in tune to it both physically and mentally.
Everything has a harmonic frequency. The earth, the sun, our bodies, molecules, atoms. You put a name to it, it resonates
(i.e it's alive), down to the smallest possible particles imaginable, and onwards to infinity (both up and down in magnitude). You control infinite universes within your own body, and they react to your thoughts and physical actions as well to determine your well being. Infinity can be found on the tip of your finger. The smallest particle you can think of has no end and is infinite.
There can never be at any point be "nothing". Think about that for a bit.
Pretty trippy stuff...
agreed and agreed, as always, on this issue. always a great voice of reason on the issue.
eidt - rightondude....right on, dude.
seriously. bottomline, generally speaking, we value human life above all else, and some value potential human life to a very great degree as well. it is all a 'line'....and a choice, in ALL areas.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
LMFAO!
the other foot in the gutter
sweet smell that they adore
I think I'd rather smother
-The Replacements-
Now here is a post that I can relate to. This is an argument that I have considered and used before, but it's usually in relation to the animal rights people.
I do think there's a distinction to be made between human life and other life, but you make a very good point.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Erring on the early side 20 weeks, but closer to 25 weeks in most cases, in answer to all your questions. Before that there is no complex cerebral cortex activity and no major central nervous system activity. An adult in this state is considered dead and cannot me murdered, only unplugged.
There is no genesis of life. Life is a continuous process. Nothing living arises from what is not alive.
We can now bring mammals to term using only the DNA from the mother. There is no conception; a virgin birth. Conception is irrelevant.
DNA does not confer individuality, for we see twins as two individual persons. What we value is the unique personality of life, not life itself. This doesn't occur before complex cerebral cortex activity.
Other people's sex is none of your business. Save your counsil for your children, not legislation.
When to smile and just what to say
They say have your own fun...
Need vinyl, doggs.
Thank you for your always valuable contributions to these threads. Earlier today I wanted to quote a previous post of yours and I didn't have time to find it. Here are the links (it's a two-parter), I think it's highly relevant ...
http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=2999759&postcount=10
http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=2999763&postcount=11
If you're using that statement to justify abortion, then we might as well be able to murder anyone without punishment.
I agree - their sex is none of my business. It's the killing of a baby that can't defend itself that is my business.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The point is conception is an arbitrary step in the process of life. What we value is not "life", a fly is life. Sperm is human life. But it is the unique personality of life that we value. A beating heart, lungs, limbs, face, eyes are all transplantable. They all support the unique personality of a functional cerebral cortex.
Genesis: The coming into being of something; the origin.
The genesis of my children's lives arose from their conception many years ago. Every human being on this planet arose from conception. I see that as far from irrelevent.
The beginning of new, unique human life is highly relevent. Any process, conception or otherwise, from which such beginnings take place is highly relevent.
When my children were conceived, they were unique individuals developing in process towards their potential. They still are. They were not their mother or their father. I referred to DNA in that sense--because they were in their mother's body did not make them their mother. They had their own unique and entirely separate DNA.
The DNA we each contained at our very own conception held the genetic instructions for our biological development. Although the outcome to our "instructions" or blueprints are not yet actualised in the earliest stages, our entire potential is contained there and then.
Do we have the right to end the life process of another who is unique, complete with their very own DNA?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
imo, yes.
when they are cells growing in my body, i have every right to terminate whatever future potential those cells may become.....be they cancer, or a possible human. it grows and lives in my body, so my choice. of course, i respect everyone's right to make that choice for themselves. that's it for me, respect the individual choice.
sundaysilence, i truly appreciate all your posts, but the info above, extremely good. i'd never have thought as far along as 20-25 weeks for cerbral cortex activity, or maybe it's simplyi am so far removed from science study i do not recall all this info...but thanks for posting it. for me, that's it. if indeed such would be considered dead in an adult human, i am unconcerned about terminating the potential growth of cells into becoming a human being later in their development. my main concern would be causing any pain. if i can avoid that, i have no moral qualms about it.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
That is my scientific analogy. As someone mentioned earlier, it's the notion of killing and how that relates to people's idealogy. Do we have the right to kill?
Sometimes I scoop up a bug in my house and chuck it outside in the garden. Sometimes I just whack it...(hehe...go easy on the jokes here).
I kill spiders in my house without thinking. They are too nasty and fast to try and collect. I always wonder what gives me the right to kill anything I have the conscious decision over. We kill billions of bacteria every morning when we have a shower. That's a lot of killing really when you think about it. Should we use soap? Prehistoric man never would, and jump in a lake or stream. We use soap because people think other people stink or the media has sold us on this idea. Natural body odor used to be a sexual attactant, and is still considered by many. Pheremones in sweat make us horny. Male secrete testosterone in their sweat to attact females for sex. So why do we shower with soap (antibacterial soap now as well) when we are comitting mass genocide of harmless bacteria on our own bodies daily?
Quantum physics tells us a single dinstinct object can be both in one place and everywhere at the same (this is proven and can actually be seen). When we focus our attention on that object it stands still and exists in one physical location only. When our attention fades from it, it then goes on to exist simultaneously in various places all at the same time. Freaky stuff!
It's all the same. People can focus more easiily on human life over other forms of live, however one form of life does not take priority over the other. We assume it to be so, and choose to make it so. That is not the "true reality" of the situation, as is now coming into our understanding based on modern scientic (proven and observable) phonema.
I say we do not have the right to knowingly kill anything. Not only that, but we shouldn't. If you're going to kill something consume it to make it part of you (stem cell research) You then, in turn, "honor it" and return it and yourself to "balance". The term "honor it" calls for a few more paragraphs of scientific babble, but you get the idea.
Alas, we are prisoners of circumstance. I hate to say it, but prisoners of overpopulation.
When abortion is illegal women that can't or don't want to raise their babies discard them in garbage cans. I see this as being much worse than abortion and is quite obviously illegal. However, people still do it. We are dealing with a natural phenomena, where certain people value certain things and others don't. The battle against prostitution is futile, because women have and always will sell sex for money. The same way women will always kill their babies. Not all women are sick enough to do those things, but some are, and no law will stop them from doing it. So what you have is the moral dilemma, is it better to allow abortion so that the baby doesn't fully develope, become born, gain conciousness, develope their senses and then suffer death. Or do you allow the choice, where women with strong value for life will make every attempt to raise their children, or at the very worst put it up for adoption. While the sick women go through numerous abortions. Or maybe we just outlaw abortion and have to deal with babies in garbage cans again. The problem with legal abortion, in the sense that anyone can do it anytime, is that a lot of honest women will do it without thinking. Or maybe they don't value a fertilized egg the same as a living, breathing child. They are fundamentally two different things. A miscarriage, is arguably worse than an abortion because it's choiceless and usually occurs during fetile development. I know several women who have expereinced miscarriages. I don't know any that have had abortions. My ex-girlfriend swore that if she ever became pregnant she would have an abortion, but now that she is pregnant she is having the child. Just as I excepted, if she was a crack addict, I would have guessed differently.
interesting points, and things i have thought of often in regards to this issue. particularly the miscarriage issue. a woman's body will spontaneously abort fertilized eggs/embryos/fetuses...all on it's own. sometimes the 'whys' of such can be determined, oftentimes it cannot. it is believed by many in the medical community that a very high # of fertile, sexually active women have had miscarriages...and that in fact most women will experience at least one miscarriage in their lives....oftentimes without even knowing it!
it is very possible to get pregnant early in your cycle, so that gives you anywhere from 2-4 weeks to be pregnant unawares...and then if your body miscarries before your next menstrual cycle begins, one would never know. now, add in the women with irregular cycles, and one could be pregnant almost 2 months unawares, and then miscarry, again never knowing. finally, add in the women actively trying who do miscarry at many stages of the pregnancy, well aware it has happened. that's many miscarriages.
point is, our bodies oftentimes spontaneously abort all on their own. i mean, a miscarriage is just that - a naturally occuring abortion. so then, our own bodies at times rejects "the life process of another who is unique, complete with their very own DNA"...the beginnings of what may grow into a human child. it is a natural occurance, is quite common....are our own bodies 'murdering' children? i think not. so if a woman's body can expel a fetus at 2, 4 or 8 weeks, and on, a miscarriage.......and another woman chooses to induce an abortion at 8 weeks.....i honestly don't see the 'moral' issue. sure, one has no choice in the matter, the other is a choice...but the point is, the end result is the same. just my thoughts...
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
In my opinion, the naturally occuring death of another including through natural abortion is different than giving ourselves permission to take another life deliberately. The issue is: is it alright to take a life that is not ours to take?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I still think it's a moral dilemma and people will do whatever they want, regardless of the law. I use prostitution as an example, like abortion, it has been going on for centuries, no amount of laws or jail time changes that. But when we look at prostitution in your average city we see skantily dressed women standing on street corners and down dark alleyways, women that often times are addicted to chemical drugs and have pimps to protect them, women that get beat up by their pimps and their tricks. In Nevada where prostitution is legal the scene looks a lot different, they operate out of classy hotels, they are cleaned up and generally not addicted to drugs, they don't get beaten up, and they aren't out there in the street posing for the passing cars. This is the difference between what someone will do legally and illegally. Illegal abortion involves coat hangers and babies in garbage cans, and various other methods. Legal abortion is in the sterile atmosphere of a medical clinic, it uses more humane methods.
The issue should not be, "should women be allowed to do it?" or "is it moral?" the question should be "Do we want women using coat hangers or discarding babies in garbage cans? Or do we want them to do it under the care of a licensed practitioner?"
Most laws and doctors discourage abortion, and restrict the timeframe in which an abortion can be performed.
I understand your point of view and your perspective of what the question should be.
In my case, I'm appealling for us to open our awareness to consider all points within our decisions and to discern, carefully, what we morally get behind so that we may choose with awareness and responsibility.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
oh i know where you are coming from, and i answered that question directly earlier. i have already said, imo, yes it is ok. but those are my personally held beliefs and i don't expect all to agree and support them...just that i believe one should leave such decisions up to the inidividual women to make on their own, and not try to legislate their choices, and what should be their choices. i am of the belief if it grows in my body, it's my choice. i merely take the idea that if such naturally occurs in our body, the idea of choosing to do the very same....not such a stretch imo. bottomline....i don't consider it 'murder'...or even taking a life. yes, the cells are alive, living, no one denies that...and yes, if allowed to grow and continue, and all goes well, would result in a living breathing child....i still consider ending the potential of such a very big distinction. but that's me.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Certainly information is the key. Women should be well informed of the procedures, risks and moral controversy of abortion.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
By the way, this is not leading into some big point I'm going to make in five posts, I just want to know.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!