Religion has caused more

chopitdown · July 2006

angelica wrote:

I think the point is that if God wanted us to all be instantly enlightned he COULD do that. It doesn't look like God wanted to give us anything straight out--it looks like we were given the tools and the choice to use them or not. If we choose not to use his very tools, but we want to blindly trust that what is out there is truth, without using our own discernment from God to judge for ourelves we're operating from our humanness. We're not operating from our clear, Truthful spiritual nature that is one with God. Hence human error being the problem, not religion or God.

I agree God could enlighten us all. the Bible says God wants us to love him and what's more loving...making someone love us or having someone freely choose to love us. God doens't want people who feel they must love him, he wants people to choose to love Him and follow him. I agree with your final statement as well, human beings are the problem not religion or God.

angelica · July 2006

chopitdown wrote:

I mean, read the philosophy behind it, read the controversy that people who are more educated discuss. Read why some people accept it and others don't. There's often very justifiable reasons why some things are declared heretical or aren't included in the canon; it's not just a power trip.

I guess i get bugged when people find something they agree with on the surface and don't dig deeper to understand why they agree with it and the decide if they should agree with it. Also, it seems that with religion people are more apt to take other texts (gnostic gospels etc...) as truth and ignore the other books of the bible.

Yes I believe i have the holy spririt but i also have reasoning, understanding and mental capabilities to judge the quality of works. I may be wrong in some of those. I would never say that i have the corner on truth, I will say that if something disagrees with the collected appropriate texts that i will hold it much more suspect than something that agrees with it, and that is prudent. Just b/c things are from a similar time does not equate to similar authenticity or accuracy. Preponderance of evidence comes into play to help make decisions.

Interesting. You believe reason, education, what the majority believes, etc, over the voice of God in you? Preponderance of human issues come into play in human issues. Spiritual truth remains clear and Truthful as spiritual truth.

Do you agree that when we make our decisions based on our human factors, rather than spiritual ones, the error that results (when it does) is human error, rather than God's error?

know1 · July 2006

Byrnzie wrote:

O.k, thanks. That's a surprisingly reasoned answer. Not surprising because it's from yourself, of course, but just surprisingly sound.

Thanks - your questions are great because they really made me stop and think about my beliefs and thought process. That's what good questions do.

I definitely see your point. I guess if any of it were indisputable fact, we wouldn't have to discuss it!

angelica · July 2006

chopitdown wrote:

I agree God could enlighten us all. the Bible says God wants us to love him and what's more loving...making someone love us or having someone freely choose to love us. God doens't want people who feel they must love him, he wants people to choose to love Him and follow him. I agree with your final statement as well, human beings are the problem not religion or God.

Oh, sorry, I didn't see this before my last post. I agree with this. It is the most loving thing to do to support absolutely whatever choice we make in everyway, and to give us exactly what we ask for, whether it be war, ugliness, crime, lack of understanding, fear, etc. It makes our true opening to truth, to Love, to Peace to Harmony, etc, all that more jaw-droppingly amazing, when we choose that.

Byrnzie · July 2006

chopitdown wrote:

I mean, read the philosophy behind it, read the controversy that people who are more educated discuss. Read why some people accept it and others don't. There's often very justifiable reasons why some things are declared heretical or aren't included in the canon; it's not just a power trip.

I guess i get bugged when people find something they agree with on the surface and don't dig deeper to understand why they agree with it and the decide if they should agree with it. Also, it seems that with religion people are more apt to take other texts (gnostic gospels etc...) as truth and ignore the other books of the bible.

Yes I believe i have the holy spririt but i also have reasoning, understanding and mental capabilities to judge the quality of works. I may be wrong in some of those. I would never say that i have the corner on truth, I will say that if something disagrees with the collected appropriate texts that i will hold it much more suspect than something that agrees with it, and that is prudent. Just b/c things are from a similar time does not equate to similar authenticity or accuracy. Preponderance of evidence comes into play to help make decisions.

The truth of it is simply that much of what I have read from the Gnostic canon makes more sense to me than the orthodox Christian canon. The basic Gnostic philosophy ties in with my wider perspective on things - Kantian and Schopenhaurean philospophy, Eastern philosophy, shamanism, Quantum Physics e.t.c. (By the way, this is becoming one of the most interesting threads I've seen on the board for a while. Let me just throw in a quick thanks to those who have contributed!) I produced this post a while ago on the 'Death in the modern age' thread which may give you an idea of where I'm coming from:

...And to consider what happens after death can lead to a moment of terror. I mean, it's not easy to think about time in respect of dying and how long you will cease to exist after you have died. This will bring you to consider eternity and of yourself in the face of this eternity. The thought can overpower you.
However, you can then begin to look backwards - in the other direction. Ask yourself how long it was before you were born. Again, you find yourself having to confront eternity - i.e, how far back can you go? Was there a beginning to time?
I reckon that when looked at this way it brings you to disregard the whole concept of linear time altogether. Because, simply put, it makes no sense. I mean it suffices for our daily existences, but on the grand scale of things it does not add up. So what else, you ask? Well, what do other cultures believe? How have cultures which existed for thousands of years longer than our own perceived the life - death cycle, and time? They saw it in circular terms. Life and time not as linear, but as circular. There is no death, just as there was no death before life. There is only an endless eternity which is round and ever renewing like the seasons.

From The Gospel Of Thomas

The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.

Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

Shamans, mystics and eastern religions, and the philosophers of the east have always spoken of a oneness which unites everything in the universe. The philosophers of the west also arrived at the same conclusion through the process of sustained reasoning - see kant and especially Schopenhaur. And the quantum physicists have also arrived at this conclusion. Imagine a bowling alley run covered in chalk. You roll a ball across it and it leaves a straight line on the runway. Imagine closing your eyes for 2 seconds and then opening them again and the part of the bowling runway where the ball was when you closed your eyes shows a zig-zag wave effect, and then continues to leave a straight line as we watch the ball roll to the end. This is how an atom behaves when we look at it. Basically, our cognitive make-up creates this world of individuality, linear time, and separateness. But beneath our perception all is one, and all is eternal, and there is no death.

chopitdown · July 2006

angelica wrote:

Interesting. You believe reason, education, what the majority believes, etc, over the voice of God in you? Preponderance of human issues come into play in human issues. Spiritual truth remains clear and Truthful as spiritual truth.

Do you agree that when we make our decisions based on our human factors, rather than spiritual ones, the error that results (when it does) is human error, rather than God's error?

I didn't say that i believe reason, education over the voice of God in me; I believe God gives us reason, knowledge to discern what is truth (he also does use the Holy spirit to guide these things). I don't believe the holy spirit will come down and have a beer with me and tell me outright what to believe. I do believe that the influence can be felt and we can know when this occurrs. I'm sorry if it came across poorly (got a few thigns going on).

Yes I agree that when we don't heed the holy spirit and choose freely to ignore spritual factors it is human error, NOT god's error. If I started a cult and ignored the tennants of the Bible and encouraged everyone to murder and rape people, that is human error... I believe God is perfect; therefore, he can't be in error. That's the hardest part of Christianity; acknowledging that I'm not perfect and don't know best all the time.

VictoryGin · July 2006

know1 wrote:

In other words, humans may have edited the bible for whatever reason in their own minds, but God was the one guiding that editing process.

I wish god would guide my editing process today. There's no way I'm going to get this all finished by myself!

chopitdown · July 2006

Byrnzie wrote:

The truth of it is simply that much of what I have read from the Gnostic canon makes more sense to me than the orthodox Christian canon. The basic Gnostic philosophy ties in with my wider perspective on things - Kantian and Schopenhaurean philospophy, Eastern philosophy, shamanism, Quantum Physics e.t.c. (By the way, this is becoming one of the most interesting threads I've seen on the board for a while. Let me just throw in a quick thanks to those who have contributed!) I produced this post a while ago on the 'Death in the modern age' thread which may give you an ide of where I'm coming from:

I can see why you would choose to believe the Gnostics, it def does agree more with your outlook on life; just like the opposite occurrs for me. I hope i didn't come across arrogant or assuming that you hadn't done the reading; you know how it is with this subject and people...there are very dear personal ideals being discussed. That was an interesting post you made and it did help at least see where you're coming from; it's not a philosophy I'd grab on to but I can see it's something you've thought through. This is an interesting thread (is this where we can derial it and start calling each other names

) and i wish more of the threads could be like this.

angelica · July 2006

chopitdown wrote:

I didn't say that i believe reason, education over the voice of God in me; I believe God gives us reason, knowledge to discern what is truth (he also does use the Holy spirit to guide these things). I don't believe the holy spirit will come down and have a beer with me and tell me outright what to believe. I do believe that the influence can be felt and we can know when this occurrs. I'm sorry if it came across poorly (got a few thigns going on).

Yes I agree that when we don't heed the holy spirit and choose freely to ignore spritual factors it is human error, NOT god's error. If I started a cult and ignored the tennants of the Bible and encouraged everyone to murder and rape people, that is human error... I believe God is perfect; therefore, he can't be in error. That's the hardest part of Christianity; acknowledging that I'm not perfect and don't know best all the time.

It sounds like you don't recognise that the holy spirit is with you at all times, ready and waiting for you to connect with it, and to explicitly trust it's guidance. You can choose what to believe and you can also activate the holy spirit in you and have the voice of God to guide you through each step. Well, more specifically you will have the Holy Spirit with you for each step you choose to align with it, "he" doesn't have to come down and have a beer with us, "he's" totally ingrained with us at all times. Do you agree with this?

I love the many forms of intelligence we have. The bottom line that I think you and I agree on is that this life we each have, is a precious gift and is between us and God. There is so much to learn and see. At the same time, we've been taught to value man's knowledge and that man's knowledge is the only truth, and it concerns me when I look at the few "God-fearing" people here, and they, too, give man's knowledge priority over the Truth.

angelica · July 2006

Byrnzie wrote:

Shamans, mystics and eastern religions, and the philosophers of the east have always spoken of a oneness which unites everything in the universe. The philosophers of the west also arrived at the same conclusion through the process of sustained reasoning - see kant and especially Schopenhaur. And the quantum physicists have also arrived at this conclusion. Imagine a bowling alley run covered in chalk. You roll a ball across it and it leaves a straight line on the runway. Imagine closing your eyes for 2 seconds and then opening them again and the part of the bowling runway where the ball was when you closed your eyes shows a zig-zag wave effect, and then continues to leave a straight line as we watch the ball roll to the end. This is how an atom behaves when we look at it. Basically, our cognitive make-up creates this world of individuality, linear time, and separateness. But beneath our perception all is one, and all is eternal, and there is no death.[/i]

So you then realise that through the view of eternity you and I are one? Time is an illusion? Separation is an illusion? And as we learn to comprehend eternity and the oneness, we can travel that oneness into anywhere in the universe and understand anything we choose to, from within our own spirit?

chopitdown · July 2006

angelica wrote:

It sounds like you don't recognise that the holy spirit is with you at all times, ready and waiting for you to connect with it, and to explicitly trust it's guidance. You can choose what to believe and you can also activate the holy spirit in you and have the voice of God to guide you through each step. Well, more specifically you will have the Holy Spirit with you for each step you choose to align with it, "he" doesn't have to come down and have a beer with us, "he's" totally ingrained with us at all times. Do you agree with this?

I believe the holy spirit is with us, but i also believe that he can be quieted (not being right with the lord, continually choosing to not heed the warnings etc...) I agree that he is always ready and wants us to connect and to explicity trust it's guidance. I like the old addage, God can only steer a moving ship. I feel that if we are making decsions, yes sometimes the answers are obvious, we are to do the work (read, discuss etc..) and through that process the holy spirit will help us discern truth from non- truth. Once again, he is totally ingrained in us is something I agree with; however, we often choose not to listen...man's fault.

angelica wrote:

I love the many forms of intelligence we have. The bottom line that I think you and I agree on is that this life we each have, is a precious gift and is between us and God. There is so much to learn and see. At the same time, we've been taught to value man's knowledge and that man's knowledge is the only truth, and it concerns me when I look at the few "God-fearing" people here, and they, too, give man's knowledge priority over the Truth.

I agree with first part of this. Where I'll disagree is that we've been taught to value man's knowledge over God's. (my poor ability to multitask may be contributing to confusion, i'll be the first to admit) My presupposition is that God guided the men who organized the bible and this oversight means I can trust the work taht was produced. I also believe that God guided the authors of the Bible and i can trust that work. The hard part about religion is that it is faith, If you ask the most religious god fearing man you can think of, Does God exist. The answer will be yes; however, it will prob be tempered with I believe 100% that God exists, not I know 100% that God exists.

Byrnzie · July 2006

angelica wrote:

So you then realise that through the view of eternity you and I are one? Time is an illusion? Separation is an illusion? And as we learn to comprehend eternity and the oneness, we can travel that oneness into anywhere in the universe and understand anything we choose to, from within our own spirit?

That's pretty much it, yeah.

angelica · July 2006

Byrnzie wrote:

That's pretty much it, yeah.

Very cool.

I've rarely met people who "get" this. I think you are the second person, actually. There is nothing more powerful than and idea whose time is come, though, my friend! That these ideas are circulating in the "general population", like on a band's website, is awesome!

slambooie · July 2006

Pretty sure the concept of "old age" and "disease" have killed a FEW more than religion. But hey.. if it makes you feel more politically relavent... hell, more powa to ya!

IndianSummer · July 2006

know1 wrote:

our goal is to spread the love

spread love by war and cunning right?

know1 · July 2006

IndianSummer wrote:

spread love by war and cunning right?

Absolutely not. Did I say that somewhere or are you pasting words on my post?

IndianSummer · July 2006

Byrnzie wrote:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0330354450/104-1964519-4874336?v=glance&n=283155

interesting review of the book on the amazon website -

Missionaries and colonialism go hand in hand. There is are many accounts of missionaries paving the road for colonial powers. Some of the teaching was that the kingdom of Africans was to be set up in heaven if and only if they would be slaves to whiles. Many twisted ideas. Missionaries are truly evil because they knew what they were doing. Many many missionaries were caught for pedophilia in Philippines and Thailand and other areas of the world. Two years ago, a child prostitution ring conducted by missionaries was broken in Peru...there are many examples of atrocities committed by missionaries around the world.

angelica · July 2006

chopitdown wrote:

I believe the holy spirit is with us, but i also believe that he can be quieted (not being right with the lord, continually choosing to not heed the warnings etc...) I agree that he is always ready and wants us to connect and to explicity trust it's guidance. I like the old addage, God can only steer a moving ship. I feel that if we are making decsions, yes sometimes the answers are obvious, we are to do the work (read, discuss etc..) and through that process the holy spirit will help us discern truth from non- truth. Once again, he is totally ingrained in us is something I agree with; however, we often choose not to listen...man's fault.

I agree with first part of this. Where I'll disagree is that we've been taught to value man's knowledge over God's. (my poor ability to multitask may be contributing to confusion, i'll be the first to admit) My presupposition is that God guided the men who organized the bible and this oversight means I can trust the work taht was produced. I also believe that God guided the authors of the Bible and i can trust that work. The hard part about religion is that it is faith, If you ask the most religious god fearing man you can think of, Does God exist. The answer will be yes; however, it will prob be tempered with I believe 100% that God exists, not I know 100% that God exists.

Okay, I sort of agree with your first part. It looks like you think questioning and learning is enough, and the spirit will meet us. I believe we need to consciously intend to learn in the spirit of uncovering God's truth. If we do not, we are learning as our base, fallible human nature. The spirit will not overrule our choice to do so (free will) so we must consciously decide to align with this "Higher Self" or "Spirit". Looking to uncover Truth is different than learning what science, for example, knows at this time. I mean this in the sense that what we've uncovered is awesome, but it's by no means the full truth.

In the second part, it looks like we part ways here (and please correct me if I assume wrong of you): you believe that the men who wrote the bible did not taint any idea with their humanness one iota. You believe that through time, the men who held the power over God's word in the bible were not just acting on God's behalf as fallible humans but that they were actually infallible while doing God's work?

I believe they were human, and therefore as honourable as their intent was, or as enlightened as they were, they were still human, meaning they made mistakes based on who they were. Also I believe many others through time, with good intent, but with personal agendas (maybe unconscious) also tainted the Word. I also believe that we can interpret the bible and hear the truth at any time. Just like I can listen to you and hear the truth, or I can listen to a two year old and hear the truth, when I've got ears to hear. (meaning, when I am aligned to God and the Holy Spirit within me)

In the end, you agree that the distortion done in the name of God has been due to human nature. It's been plenty. It's been real, and it's been obscene. The atrocities humans do fall very short of God, whether God's name is invoked or not.

angelica · July 2006

IndianSummer wrote:

i Missionaries are truly evil because they knew what they were doing.

So you are endowed with the ability to see into the hearts of all missionaries?

IndianSummer · July 2006

angelica wrote:

So you are endowed with the ability to see into the hearts of all missionaries?

i didnt write that.

having said that, i have no love for missionaries or any other people who proselytyse in any way, causing social-cultural-religious genocide. missionaries are the reason that all pagan religions, cultures, values, traditions have almost disappeared from the earth.

Religion has caused more

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