I mean, you are right if you say that religion has been associated with much killing and evil in the history of mankind. I'm just saying that association does not equal causation. Bad people used religion to accomplish a hell of a lot of evil, sure. But it's those people and their twisted, selfish motives that are to blame.
I really believe that the idea that seems to be subscribed to on here of if we could go back in time, take religion completely out of human history, that would result in a much better human experience, is bull crap. I think things would actually turn out much worse given that alternate course of human existance, without all those religious rules and principles "reigning in" those natural selfish human tendancies . I think in the final sum, religion prevents more evil than it creates or encourages. Does that make sense? I hope I explained it decently.
i'd have to agree to a certain extent. religon has always existed, whether one truly believes or not...not even the point...seems part of the human psyche to have religion in mind, even ancient/primitive peoples had some form/basis for religion. no matter what, if not religion...there would have been something else in it's place to cause death and destruction at human hands in any case. religion may be a handy 'cause', but it certainly isn't the only one...and sadly, seems killing is far too prevelant within the human psyche to not exist/continue...sans religion or not.
I just can't believe you think all those people actually cared about the "name of god." I think it's almost always about power, greed, money/land/resources, etc. etc. I personally think "in the name of god" just gave them a nice excuse to justify their behavior and feel like what they were doing wasn't so bad.
all that stuff is true, but groups really have killed in the name of god since the begining of our time.
Yes it was an excuse for most (and a clever way to motivate the population to kill for you), but remember there are a lot of kinds of "crazy" out there.
all that stuff is true, but groups really have killed in the name of god since the begining of our time.
Yes it was an excuse for most (and a clever way to motivate the population to kill for you), but remember there are a lot of kinds of "crazy" out there.
well, 'killing in the name of...'...and actually that being the true issue, not the same thing. didn't reagan's attempted assasssin do so to somehow impress jodie foster or some twisted shite like that? seriously, one can go out on a limb and choose just about anything they want to grasp at as a 'reason' for killing..and i hardly think religion corners the market is all.
people throughout human history have quite literally killed and colonized "in the name of god". Lately it's been Christianity and Islam (lately in terms of thousands of years).
Relgion causes much more evil than it prevents, but i think it's a nessecary step in our (if you'll pardon the phrase ) evolution.
.
Seriously, you are FOS on this one. Point to ONE passage of scripture, one tennnat or core teaching of ANY religion that justifies any of the "evil" you describe. ONE core teaching of ANY religion. Unless you can do this, there is no teeth to your statement that Religion causes evil. No teeth whatsoever.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Religion has caused pain mostly because it give people a reason to distinguish themselves from each other.
Christians sever heads and limbs from majestic aircraft. Muslims currently do so with knives on a more personal level.
Which do you prefer?
I think your first statement is inaccurate. At least in my religion, our goal is to spread the love and word of God to EVERYONE. Thereby eliminating the distinction.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
well, 'killing in the name of...'...and actually that being the true issue, not the same thing. didn't reagan's attempted assasssin do so to somehow impress jodie foster or some twisted shite like that? seriously, one can go out on a limb and choose just about anything they want to grasp at as a 'reason' for killing..and i hardly think religion corners the market is all.
ppl can say 'it wasn't TRUE believers...' all they want, did very many stand up to them? no one implied religion had the market cornered.
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Religion is too easy of a scapegoat. It's a numbers game. Most people who fought wars were religious, so it must be religion's fault, right? I don't think so. I think you have to look deeper at the true cause of evil, which is simply greed, whether for power, money, whatever. In most cases, religion was along for the ride while people perpetrated these evils.
but what about cases where it WAS the religious doing it? not just someone who claims to be religious starting it?
the black plague
inquisitions
witch burnings
torture, rape and execution of joan of arc (wasn't the OFFICIAL position that God wouldn't dare talk to a girl, let alone a peasant?)
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Perhaps a more accurate statement would be PERVERSION of religion has caused a lot of death around the world.
Below is a table that i ran across of the biggest murderers of the 20th century (it doesn't nec pertain to the above statement, but it is food for thought).
Ruler Country Years Total killed
Joseph Stalin Soviet Union 1929-1953 42,672,000
Mao Tse-tung China 1923-1976 37,828,000
Adolf Hitler Germany 1933-1945 20,946,000
Chiang Kai-shek China 1921-1948 10,214,000
Vladimir Lenin Soviet Union 1917-1924 4,017,000
Tojo Hideki Japan 1941-1945 3,990,000
Pol Pot Cambodia 1968-1987 2,397,000
Yahya Khan Pakistan 1971 1,500,000
Josip Tito Yugoslavia 1941-1987 1,172,000
another aside-
The figures put on the Mongolian invasion of northern China form 1210 to 1219 and from 1311 to 1340 are both on the order of 35 million people. While the number of victims of bandit leader Chang Hsien-Chung, known as the Yellow Tiger, from 1643 to 1647 in the Szechwan province has been put at 40 million people.
not just religious people kill others.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
Not every person in every religion participated in those things. You're stereotyping based on participation by some.
i know they all didn't participate...my question was what did the 'true believers' do to stop it?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
but what about cases where it WAS the religious doing it? not just someone who claims to be religious starting it?
the black plague
inquisitions
witch burnings
torture, rape and execution of joan of arc (wasn't the OFFICIAL position that God wouldn't dare talk to a girl, let alone a peasant?)
in re: to the witch trials, it was also a minister who caused them to stop. And the judge who started the trials confessed his own guilt.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
I think your first statement is inaccurate. At least in my religion, our goal is to spread the love and word of God to EVERYONE. Thereby eliminating the distinction.
your religion feels those that don't believe will be punished immeasurably for all eternity. thats may seem fine to you a believer, but perhaps harsh to others.
I think your first statement is inaccurate. At least in my religion, our goal is to spread the love and word of God to EVERYONE. Thereby eliminating the distinction.
3 questions:
1.When you say the word of God, what do you mean? Do you mean those particular gospels which the early church fathers decided were acceptable for their purposes, the collection of which has since become known as the bible?
2. When you say that your goal is to spread the love and word of God to everyone, what would you do if no one listened?
3. What is your opinion on the devastation caused by missionaries in South America, and other tribal areas throughout the world? They have destroyed entire communities by spreading western diseases. They have also robbed communities of their traditions and heritage, which has resulted in massive despondency and suicide? Is this what you mean by spreading love? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0330354450/104-1964519-4874336?v=glance&n=283155
Please elaborate.
your religion feels those that don't believe will be punished immeasurably for all eternity. thats may seem fine to you a believer, but perhaps harsh to others.
But what does that have to do with your statement that religion exists to cause distinctions? Let's stick to that point for a minute. I refuted it, and you just jumped to a different argument.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
3 questions:
1.When you say the word of God, what do you mean? Do you mean those particular gospels which the early church fathers decided were acceptable for their purposes, the collection of which has since become known as the bible?
2. When you say that your goal is to spread the love and word of God to everyone, what would you do if no one listened?
3. What is your opinion on the devastation caused by missionaries in South America, and other tribal areas throughout the world? They have destroyed entire communities by spreading western diseases there. They have also robbed communities of their traditions and heritage, which has resulted in massive despondency and suicide? Is this what you mean by spreading love?
1. Yes
2. Keep trying
3. Not sure about that. Their intent should be to teach these people about God and to save them for eternity.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
i know they all didn't participate...my question was what did the 'true believers' do to stop it?
But apparently "the meek will inherit the earth" so other than voicing disapproval they are not allowed to..(christians anyway).#
.............all said and done but when |I have children I will want them to be brought up Catholic with view to attending a Roman Catholic school............................Im a believer in the supreme art of animal training!
Those things have stopped, right? Who stopped them?
that depends on which one you were talking about. why did it take so long to stop any of them? you'd think the church would be able to say something like 'hey, we don't condone this!' and yet....
If that's your logic, what did the NON-RELIGIOUS people do to stop them?
not the point. but i'd guess they didn't just follow along like sheep. funny you keep asking questions w/o answering any of mine, tho.
see, if i went to church and they said 'god wants us to rape everyone who doesn't go to this church!...would it make more sense for someone who didn't believe the same as that church to say it's not right or someone who actually does go to that church say 'this isn't right!'? of course both should, but what if the ppl of the church just said nothing...? just waited for it to sort itself out instead of speaking out.
sorry, but silence is still complacency
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
But what does that have to do with your statement that religion exists to cause distinctions? Let's stick to that point for a minute. I refuted it, and you just jumped to a different argument.
that depends on which one you were talking about. why did it take so long to stop any of them? you'd think the church would be able to say something like 'hey, we don't condone this!' and yet....
They've all stopped. How long it took to stop them is a matter of opinion. Perhaps many people did try to stop them, but didn't have the power. Eventually, the right side won out.
not the point. but i'd guess they didn't just follow along like sheep. funny you keep asking questions w/o answering any of mine, tho.
see, if i went to church and they said 'god wants us to rape everyone who doesn't go to this church!...would it make more sense for someone who didn't believe the same as that church to say it's not right or someone who actually does go to that church say 'this isn't right!'? of course both should, but what if the ppl of the church just said nothing...? just waited for it to sort itself out instead of speaking out.
sorry, but silence is still complacency
Silence on both sides is complacency, but who's to say that either side was silent? Sometimes it just takes time to make things right.
I keep asking the same questions you do. I'm just turning them around to make the point that too much blame is being placed on religion.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
see, if i went to church and they said 'god wants us to rape everyone who doesn't go to this church!...would it make more sense for someone who didn't believe the same as that church to say it's not right or someone who actually does go to that church say 'this isn't right!'? of course both should, but what if the ppl of the church just said nothing...? just waited for it to sort itself out instead of speaking out.
sorry, but silence is still complacency
yes it would make sense to say it's not right, but your also assuming that all human beings are free from being influenced. Look at the heavens gate cult, the family, branch davidian, michael moore followers etc... a lot of people did say those were perversions and tried to stop it but some people will choose to participate in evil even if they don't agree with it, I'm sure the resident sociologist / psychologist will agree. Religious people are no more or less influenceable than anyone else, they are still human beings that have the capability to do wrong.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
It's a distinction, but it doesn't mean that religion is designed to simply make them. I'm saying that in big letters on the wall of the worship area of my church, there is statement that says we should spread religion and salvation to everyone. Therefore, our goal is to ELIMINATE the distinction.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
It's a distinction, but it doesn't mean that religion is designed to simply make them. I'm saying that in big letters on the wall of the worship area of my church, there is statement that says we should spread religion and salvation to everyone. Therefore, our goal is to ELIMINATE the distinction.
ok, so that is your stated goal. In practice however, and very large number of Christians don't ast as though that is their goal - which of course means it is not their goal.. so, basically all they are doing is joining a club.
1. No and good for you. There have been untold things written by humans down through the ages. It doesn't mean we should accept all of them as truth.
2.
3.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
i know they all didn't participate...my question was what did the 'true believers' do to stop it?
True believers act out the ideals that such religions have at heart: they act out love, compassion, etc. And they also do not support killing, death and other forms of distortion. It's like the quote you posted awhile back, and that I LOVED, by the way!
"The world is like a ride at an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it, you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to question: Is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, 'Hey – don't worry, don't be afraid ever, because this is just a ride ...' And we ... kill those people. Ha ha, 'Shut him up. We have a lot invested in this ride. Shut him up. Look at my furrows of worry. Look at my big bank account and my family. This just has to be real.' It's just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter, because – it's just a ride. And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings and money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead, spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace. Thank you very much, you've been great." --Bill Hicks
The true believers are choosing Love in each moment, and they are NOT giving themselves permission to choose fear. Unfortunately, the true believers are a serious minority. The majority of people, although well intended, are using and distorting religion to suit their ego agendas. This is clearly about the human ego--and not about the spirit of humanity. They don't "get" the part that we must accept that as humans we are imperfect and therefore must accept the way of the higher path--of Love, in order to be whole.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Comments
i'd have to agree to a certain extent. religon has always existed, whether one truly believes or not...not even the point...seems part of the human psyche to have religion in mind, even ancient/primitive peoples had some form/basis for religion. no matter what, if not religion...there would have been something else in it's place to cause death and destruction at human hands in any case. religion may be a handy 'cause', but it certainly isn't the only one...and sadly, seems killing is far too prevelant within the human psyche to not exist/continue...sans religion or not.
edit - really poor grammar.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Yes it was an excuse for most (and a clever way to motivate the population to kill for you), but remember there are a lot of kinds of "crazy" out there.
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
well, 'killing in the name of...'...and actually that being the true issue, not the same thing. didn't reagan's attempted assasssin do so to somehow impress jodie foster or some twisted shite like that? seriously, one can go out on a limb and choose just about anything they want to grasp at as a 'reason' for killing..and i hardly think religion corners the market is all.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Seriously, you are FOS on this one. Point to ONE passage of scripture, one tennnat or core teaching of ANY religion that justifies any of the "evil" you describe. ONE core teaching of ANY religion. Unless you can do this, there is no teeth to your statement that Religion causes evil. No teeth whatsoever.
true that.
people just suck
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
Christians sever heads and limbs from majestic aircraft. Muslims currently do so with knives on a more personal level.
Which do you prefer?
I think your first statement is inaccurate. At least in my religion, our goal is to spread the love and word of God to EVERYONE. Thereby eliminating the distinction.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
ppl can say 'it wasn't TRUE believers...' all they want, did very many stand up to them? no one implied religion had the market cornered.
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
but what about cases where it WAS the religious doing it? not just someone who claims to be religious starting it?
the black plague
inquisitions
witch burnings
torture, rape and execution of joan of arc (wasn't the OFFICIAL position that God wouldn't dare talk to a girl, let alone a peasant?)
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Not every person in every religion participated in those things. You're stereotyping based on participation by some.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Below is a table that i ran across of the biggest murderers of the 20th century (it doesn't nec pertain to the above statement, but it is food for thought).
Ruler Country Years Total killed
Joseph Stalin Soviet Union 1929-1953 42,672,000
Mao Tse-tung China 1923-1976 37,828,000
Adolf Hitler Germany 1933-1945 20,946,000
Chiang Kai-shek China 1921-1948 10,214,000
Vladimir Lenin Soviet Union 1917-1924 4,017,000
Tojo Hideki Japan 1941-1945 3,990,000
Pol Pot Cambodia 1968-1987 2,397,000
Yahya Khan Pakistan 1971 1,500,000
Josip Tito Yugoslavia 1941-1987 1,172,000
another aside-
The figures put on the Mongolian invasion of northern China form 1210 to 1219 and from 1311 to 1340 are both on the order of 35 million people. While the number of victims of bandit leader Chang Hsien-Chung, known as the Yellow Tiger, from 1643 to 1647 in the Szechwan province has been put at 40 million people.
not just religious people kill others.
i know they all didn't participate...my question was what did the 'true believers' do to stop it?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Those things have stopped, right? Who stopped them?
If that's your logic, what did the NON-RELIGIOUS people do to stop them?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
in re: to the witch trials, it was also a minister who caused them to stop. And the judge who started the trials confessed his own guilt.
your religion feels those that don't believe will be punished immeasurably for all eternity. thats may seem fine to you a believer, but perhaps harsh to others.
3 questions:
1.When you say the word of God, what do you mean? Do you mean those particular gospels which the early church fathers decided were acceptable for their purposes, the collection of which has since become known as the bible?
2. When you say that your goal is to spread the love and word of God to everyone, what would you do if no one listened?
3. What is your opinion on the devastation caused by missionaries in South America, and other tribal areas throughout the world? They have destroyed entire communities by spreading western diseases. They have also robbed communities of their traditions and heritage, which has resulted in massive despondency and suicide? Is this what you mean by spreading love?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0330354450/104-1964519-4874336?v=glance&n=283155
Please elaborate.
But what does that have to do with your statement that religion exists to cause distinctions? Let's stick to that point for a minute. I refuted it, and you just jumped to a different argument.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
1. Yes
2. Keep trying
3. Not sure about that. Their intent should be to teach these people about God and to save them for eternity.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
.............all said and done but when |I have children I will want them to be brought up Catholic with view to attending a Roman Catholic school............................Im a believer in the supreme art of animal training!
That was my point as well. I'm sure it will be roundly ignored. The truth doesn't matter as long as you can persecute religion.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
that depends on which one you were talking about. why did it take so long to stop any of them? you'd think the church would be able to say something like 'hey, we don't condone this!' and yet....
not the point. but i'd guess they didn't just follow along like sheep. funny you keep asking questions w/o answering any of mine, tho.
see, if i went to church and they said 'god wants us to rape everyone who doesn't go to this church!...would it make more sense for someone who didn't believe the same as that church to say it's not right or someone who actually does go to that church say 'this isn't right!'? of course both should, but what if the ppl of the church just said nothing...? just waited for it to sort itself out instead of speaking out.
sorry, but silence is still complacency
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
that is a glaring distinction!
They've all stopped. How long it took to stop them is a matter of opinion. Perhaps many people did try to stop them, but didn't have the power. Eventually, the right side won out.
Silence on both sides is complacency, but who's to say that either side was silent? Sometimes it just takes time to make things right.
I keep asking the same questions you do. I'm just turning them around to make the point that too much blame is being placed on religion.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
yes it would make sense to say it's not right, but your also assuming that all human beings are free from being influenced. Look at the heavens gate cult, the family, branch davidian, michael moore followers
It's a distinction, but it doesn't mean that religion is designed to simply make them. I'm saying that in big letters on the wall of the worship area of my church, there is statement that says we should spread religion and salvation to everyone. Therefore, our goal is to ELIMINATE the distinction.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
1. Have you read any of the other gospels? Those known as gnostic gospels because they promote direct contact with God without the medium of a priest or Church? I find them fascinating.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679724532/104-1964519-4874336?v=glance&n=283155
2. O.k
3. This is another fascinating book well worth reading:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0330354450/104-1964519-4874336?v=glance&n=283155
ok, so that is your stated goal. In practice however, and very large number of Christians don't ast as though that is their goal - which of course means it is not their goal.. so, basically all they are doing is joining a club.
1. No and good for you. There have been untold things written by humans down through the ages. It doesn't mean we should accept all of them as truth.
2.
3.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
True believers act out the ideals that such religions have at heart: they act out love, compassion, etc. And they also do not support killing, death and other forms of distortion. It's like the quote you posted awhile back, and that I LOVED, by the way!
"The world is like a ride at an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it, you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to question: Is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, 'Hey – don't worry, don't be afraid ever, because this is just a ride ...' And we ... kill those people. Ha ha, 'Shut him up. We have a lot invested in this ride. Shut him up. Look at my furrows of worry. Look at my big bank account and my family. This just has to be real.' It's just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter, because – it's just a ride. And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings and money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead, spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace. Thank you very much, you've been great." --Bill Hicks
The true believers are choosing Love in each moment, and they are NOT giving themselves permission to choose fear. Unfortunately, the true believers are a serious minority. The majority of people, although well intended, are using and distorting religion to suit their ego agendas. This is clearly about the human ego--and not about the spirit of humanity. They don't "get" the part that we must accept that as humans we are imperfect and therefore must accept the way of the higher path--of Love, in order to be whole.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!