Religion has caused more

know1

El_Kabong wrote:

but what about cases where it WAS the religious doing it? not just someone who claims to be religious starting it?

the black plague
inquisitions
witch burnings
torture, rape and execution of joan of arc

Not every person in every religion participated in those things. You're stereotyping based on participation by some.

chopitdown

Perhaps a more accurate statement would be PERVERSION of religion has caused a lot of death around the world.

Below is a table that i ran across of the biggest murderers of the 20th century (it doesn't nec pertain to the above statement, but it is food for thought).

Ruler Country Years Total killed
Joseph Stalin Soviet Union 1929-1953 42,672,000
Mao Tse-tung China 1923-1976 37,828,000
Adolf Hitler Germany 1933-1945 20,946,000
Chiang Kai-shek China 1921-1948 10,214,000
Vladimir Lenin Soviet Union 1917-1924 4,017,000
Tojo Hideki Japan 1941-1945 3,990,000
Pol Pot Cambodia 1968-1987 2,397,000
Yahya Khan Pakistan 1971 1,500,000
Josip Tito Yugoslavia 1941-1987 1,172,000

another aside-
The figures put on the Mongolian invasion of northern China form 1210 to 1219 and from 1311 to 1340 are both on the order of 35 million people. While the number of victims of bandit leader Chang Hsien-Chung, known as the Yellow Tiger, from 1643 to 1647 in the Szechwan province has been put at 40 million people.

not just religious people kill others.

El_Kabong

know1 wrote:

Not every person in every religion participated in those things. You're stereotyping based on participation by some.

i know they all didn't participate...my question was what did the 'true believers' do to stop it?

know1

El_Kabong wrote:

i know they all didn't participate...my question was what did the 'true believers' do to stop it?

Those things have stopped, right? Who stopped them?

If that's your logic, what did the NON-RELIGIOUS people do to stop them?

chopitdown

El_Kabong wrote:

but what about cases where it WAS the religious doing it? not just someone who claims to be religious starting it?

the black plague
inquisitions
witch burnings
torture, rape and execution of joan of arc (wasn't the OFFICIAL position that God wouldn't dare talk to a girl, let alone a peasant?)

in re: to the witch trials, it was also a minister who caused them to stop. And the judge who started the trials confessed his own guilt.

Abuskedti

know1 wrote:

I think your first statement is inaccurate. At least in my religion, our goal is to spread the love and word of God to EVERYONE. Thereby eliminating the distinction.

your religion feels those that don't believe will be punished immeasurably for all eternity. thats may seem fine to you a believer, but perhaps harsh to others.

Byrnzie

know1 wrote:

I think your first statement is inaccurate. At least in my religion, our goal is to spread the love and word of God to EVERYONE. Thereby eliminating the distinction.

3 questions:
1.When you say the word of God, what do you mean? Do you mean those particular gospels which the early church fathers decided were acceptable for their purposes, the collection of which has since become known as the bible?
2. When you say that your goal is to spread the love and word of God to everyone, what would you do if no one listened?
3. What is your opinion on the devastation caused by missionaries in South America, and other tribal areas throughout the world? They have destroyed entire communities by spreading western diseases. They have also robbed communities of their traditions and heritage, which has resulted in massive despondency and suicide? Is this what you mean by spreading love?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0330354450/104-1964519-4874336?v=glance&n=283155
Please elaborate.

know1

Abuskedti wrote:

your religion feels those that don't believe will be punished immeasurably for all eternity. thats may seem fine to you a believer, but perhaps harsh to others.

But what does that have to do with your statement that religion exists to cause distinctions? Let's stick to that point for a minute. I refuted it, and you just jumped to a different argument.

know1

Byrnzie wrote:

3 questions:
1.When you say the word of God, what do you mean? Do you mean those particular gospels which the early church fathers decided were acceptable for their purposes, the collection of which has since become known as the bible?
2. When you say that your goal is to spread the love and word of God to everyone, what would you do if no one listened?
3. What is your opinion on the devastation caused by missionaries in South America, and other tribal areas throughout the world? They have destroyed entire communities by spreading western diseases there. They have also robbed communities of their traditions and heritage, which has resulted in massive despondency and suicide? Is this what you mean by spreading love?

1. Yes
2. Keep trying
3. Not sure about that. Their intent should be to teach these people about God and to save them for eternity.

elmer

El_Kabong wrote:

i know they all didn't participate...my question was what did the 'true believers' do to stop it?

But apparently "the meek will inherit the earth" so other than voicing disapproval they are not allowed to..(christians anyway).#
.............all said and done but when |I have children I will want them to be brought up Catholic with view to attending a Roman Catholic school............................Im a believer in the supreme art of animal training!

know1

chopitdown wrote:

in re: to the witch trials, it was also a minister who caused them to stop. And the judge who started the trials confessed his own guilt.

That was my point as well. I'm sure it will be roundly ignored. The truth doesn't matter as long as you can persecute religion.

El_Kabong

know1 wrote:

Those things have stopped, right? Who stopped them?

that depends on which one you were talking about. why did it take so long to stop any of them? you'd think the church would be able to say something like 'hey, we don't condone this!' and yet....

know1 wrote:

If that's your logic, what did the NON-RELIGIOUS people do to stop them?

not the point. but i'd guess they didn't just follow along like sheep. funny you keep asking questions w/o answering any of mine, tho.

see, if i went to church and they said 'god wants us to rape everyone who doesn't go to this church!...would it make more sense for someone who didn't believe the same as that church to say it's not right or someone who actually does go to that church say 'this isn't right!'? of course both should, but what if the ppl of the church just said nothing...? just waited for it to sort itself out instead of speaking out.

sorry, but silence is still complacency

Abuskedti

know1 wrote:

But what does that have to do with your statement that religion exists to cause distinctions? Let's stick to that point for a minute. I refuted it, and you just jumped to a different argument.

that is a glaring distinction!

know1

El_Kabong wrote:

that depends on which one you were talking about. why did it take so long to stop any of them? you'd think the church would be able to say something like 'hey, we don't condone this!' and yet....

They've all stopped. How long it took to stop them is a matter of opinion. Perhaps many people did try to stop them, but didn't have the power. Eventually, the right side won out.

El_Kabong wrote:

not the point. but i'd guess they didn't just follow along like sheep. funny you keep asking questions w/o answering any of mine, tho.

see, if i went to church and they said 'god wants us to rape everyone who doesn't go to this church!...would it make more sense for someone who didn't believe the same as that church to say it's not right or someone who actually does go to that church say 'this isn't right!'? of course both should, but what if the ppl of the church just said nothing...? just waited for it to sort itself out instead of speaking out.

sorry, but silence is still complacency

Silence on both sides is complacency, but who's to say that either side was silent? Sometimes it just takes time to make things right.

I keep asking the same questions you do. I'm just turning them around to make the point that too much blame is being placed on religion.

chopitdown

El_Kabong wrote:

see, if i went to church and they said 'god wants us to rape everyone who doesn't go to this church!...would it make more sense for someone who didn't believe the same as that church to say it's not right or someone who actually does go to that church say 'this isn't right!'? of course both should, but what if the ppl of the church just said nothing...? just waited for it to sort itself out instead of speaking out.

sorry, but silence is still complacency

yes it would make sense to say it's not right, but your also assuming that all human beings are free from being influenced. Look at the heavens gate cult, the family, branch davidian, michael moore followers etc... a lot of people did say those were perversions and tried to stop it but some people will choose to participate in evil even if they don't agree with it, I'm sure the resident sociologist / psychologist will agree. Religious people are no more or less influenceable than anyone else, they are still human beings that have the capability to do wrong.

know1

Abuskedti wrote:

that is a glaring distinction!

It's a distinction, but it doesn't mean that religion is designed to simply make them. I'm saying that in big letters on the wall of the worship area of my church, there is statement that says we should spread religion and salvation to everyone. Therefore, our goal is to ELIMINATE the distinction.

Byrnzie

know1 wrote:

1. Yes
2. Keep trying
3. Not sure about that. Their intent should be to teach these people about God and to save them for eternity.

1. Have you read any of the other gospels? Those known as gnostic gospels because they promote direct contact with God without the medium of a priest or Church? I find them fascinating.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679724532/104-1964519-4874336?v=glance&n=283155
2. O.k
3. This is another fascinating book well worth reading:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0330354450/104-1964519-4874336?v=glance&n=283155

Abuskedti

know1 wrote:

It's a distinction, but it doesn't mean that religion is designed to simply make them. I'm saying that in big letters on the wall of the worship area of my church, there is statement that says we should spread religion and salvation to everyone. Therefore, our goal is to ELIMINATE the distinction.

ok, so that is your stated goal. In practice however, and very large number of Christians don't ast as though that is their goal - which of course means it is not their goal.. so, basically all they are doing is joining a club.

know1

Byrnzie wrote:

1. Have you read any of the other gospels? Those known as gnostic gospels because they propogate direct contact with God without the medium of a priest or Church? I find them fascinating.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679724532/104-1964519-4874336?v=glance&n=283155
2. O.k
3. This is another fascinating book well worth reading:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0330354450/104-1964519-4874336?v=glance&n=283155

1. No and good for you. There have been untold things written by humans down through the ages. It doesn't mean we should accept all of them as truth.
2.
3.

angelica

El_Kabong wrote:

i know they all didn't participate...my question was what did the 'true believers' do to stop it?

True believers act out the ideals that such religions have at heart: they act out love, compassion, etc. And they also do not support killing, death and other forms of distortion. It's like the quote you posted awhile back, and that I LOVED, by the way!

"The world is like a ride at an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it, you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to question: Is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, 'Hey – don't worry, don't be afraid ever, because this is just a ride ...' And we ... kill those people. Ha ha, 'Shut him up. We have a lot invested in this ride. Shut him up. Look at my furrows of worry. Look at my big bank account and my family. This just has to be real.' It's just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter, because – it's just a ride. And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings and money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead, spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace. Thank you very much, you've been great." --Bill Hicks


The true believers are choosing Love in each moment, and they are NOT giving themselves permission to choose fear. Unfortunately, the true believers are a serious minority. The majority of people, although well intended, are using and distorting religion to suit their ego agendas. This is clearly about the human ego--and not about the spirit of humanity. They don't "get" the part that we must accept that as humans we are imperfect and therefore must accept the way of the higher path--of Love, in order to be whole.