Maximum Wage

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  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    farfromglorified wrote:
    True. Would you like me to do this again under the pretense that I believe government should force American companies to keep jobs here?

    If no one is forcing them, what would happen I opened a grocery store right now and paid my workers $4/hour?

    Of course. Can I hide behind such an excuse for every crime or misdeed in American history? Or corporate history?

    So the lynch mob becomes the ideal? Weren't you just telling me about the violent end-game of anarchy?

    You're entirely right -- no one FORCES me to do business here. Are you suggesting that slavery would have been justified if a) the masses wanted it and b) we asked the slaves nicely to come here first?

    1. no, my point was you're being ridiculous and not giving a valid and legitimate argument the consideration it deserves. not everyone who thinks progressive taxation is a communist, and you know it. if you dont, im sorry to tell you but senator mccarthy lost power a long time ago buddy. quit the witch-hunts and demonization of everything you disagree with.

    2. no, but you CAN hide behind such an excuse for every LAW in the US. what part of my post did you not understand? minimum wage is LAW, not CRIME. if you have a criminal behavior and can muster the support to legalize it (marijuana?), by all means, go for it and i'll have no issue with it. but you've got to do it on the strength of your argument, not by inflaming people's fears of the alternative you don't like. you'd be just as bad as a democrat or a republican ;)

    3. a lynch mob, again, is a means of violence, and again, NOT LAW. it is called rule by majority... aka DEMOCRACY. if the majority decides to make something legal or illegal, that is not mob rule, it is democracy. again, quit playing drama queen. i normally respect you, but this new fav tactic of yours is pretty feeble.

    4. this is inapplicable. one, i know your income is more important to you than the lives of your fellow humans (see how fun hyperbole can be), but there IS a difference between your income being taxed, and somebody's very body being owned by another person. your thinking is purely academic and abstract and not grounded in reality. you're arguing ideology and philosophically on an issue that has to be grounded in the reality of this world. the reality being people are more valuable than any amount of money. your analogies are weak at best. two, the income tax and minimum wage we voted on applies to everyone equally. the people supporting it pay it too, they do not just impose on people they don't like. it goes across the board. if people vote to enslave only people other than them, that is different. now, if we all voted that anyone who gets into a car accident and can't pay the damages has to be someone else's butler for a year (god bless jerry seinfeld), that applies equally to everybody.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Certainly! A choice does signify that. Slavery leaves you no other option. Removing the minimum wage, however, does not limit your options. It only limits your right to force someone else to pay you something greater than your worth to them.

    if you weren't worth that much to them, they wouldnt be in the business. the fact that there are still jobs in the US shows that employers find that horribly unjust minimum wage you're crying over is still worth paying for the money they receive.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    jeffbr wrote:
    So if the majority of the people what to cap salaries at $40,000, or better yet set a standard wage which everyone makes at $40,000 you have no problem with that since it is the will of the masses?

    pretty much. id oppose such a measure, but if it's what the people want, what am i going to do about it? im free to move and work elsewhere if i dont like it.
  • jeffbr
    jeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    soulsinging wrote:
    pretty much. id oppose such a measure, but if it's what the people want, what am i going to do about it? im free to move and work elsewhere if i dont like it.

    So if the majority of people want separate but equal schools and restaurants, that'd be OK with you, too?
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • jeffbr
    jeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    soulsinging wrote:
    3. a lynch mob, again, is a means of violence, and again, NOT LAW. it is called rule by majority... aka DEMOCRACY. if the majority decides to make something legal or illegal, that is not mob rule, it is democracy.

    I think this is where you're tripping up. We are governed by rule of law, not rule of will, whether that will be a monarch's or a mob's. When that democracy does something outside the bounds, it should be reigned in. Government theft of property, income, etc.. shouldn't be tolerated, and certainly shouldn't be excused simply because the majority voted for it. The bill of rights is full of clauses protecting the individual from the gov't and/or mob rule.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    soulsinging wrote:
    if you weren't worth that much to them, they wouldnt be in the business. the fact that there are still jobs in the US shows that employers find that horribly unjust minimum wage you're crying over is still worth paying for the money they receive.

    You're not putting any thought into this. You're suggesting that any job that isn't outsourced must be worth the minimum wage, which is ridiculous. You can't outsource a stockboy. You can't outsource a burger-flipper. Furthermore, if it "must be worth it", why even bother with a minimum wage at all? If the actual value of the labor is equal to or greater than your minimum wage, there would be no reason for the law.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    soulsinging wrote:
    1. no, my point was you're being ridiculous and not giving a valid and legitimate argument the consideration it deserves. not everyone who thinks progressive taxation is a communist, and you know it. if you dont, im sorry to tell you but senator mccarthy lost power a long time ago buddy. quit the witch-hunts and demonization of everything you disagree with.

    I haven't accused anyone of being communist just because they support "progressive taxation" or the minimum wage. And I'm not interested in witch-hunts or demonizations.

    I only want people to actually understand what they're doing and, in the process, perhaps make them think about the reprecussions.
    2. no, but you CAN hide behind such an excuse for every LAW in the US. what part of my post did you not understand? minimum wage is LAW, not CRIME. if you have a criminal behavior and can muster the support to legalize it (marijuana?), by all means, go for it and i'll have no issue with it. but you've got to do it on the strength of your argument, not by inflaming people's fears of the alternative you don't like. you'd be just as bad as a democrat or a republican ;)

    What "fears" and I inflaming? I've got people here telling me that without the minimum wage we'd be working in dilapidated sweat shops. I've got you telling me that without the force of government we'd all be red in tooth and claw. All I've alluded to is the basic rule of reciprocity -- the rights you grant yourself will also be granted to others.
    3. a lynch mob, again, is a means of violence, and again, NOT LAW. it is called rule by majority... aka DEMOCRACY. if the majority decides to make something legal or illegal, that is not mob rule, it is democracy. again, quit playing drama queen. i normally respect you, but this new fav tactic of yours is pretty feeble.

    Now this is good, minus the drama queen bit. Tell me, what separates law from violence?
    4. this is inapplicable. one, i know your income is more important to you than the lives of your fellow humans (see how fun hyperbole can be)

    No, my life is more important to me that the lives of my fellow humans. And the essence of my life is my ability to make choices for myself.
    , but there IS a difference between your income being taxed, and somebody's very body being owned by another person.

    Yes, there is a difference. There is a difference between murder and premeditated murder as well, but the existence of difference does not make one good and one evil.
    your thinking is purely academic and abstract and not grounded in reality. you're arguing ideology and philosophically on an issue that has to be grounded in the reality of this world.

    The former is false, the latter is true. All philosophy must be grounded in the reality of this world.
    the reality being people are more valuable than any amount of money.

    Then why are you the one assigning them a minimum value?
    your analogies are weak at best. two, the income tax and minimum wage we voted on applies to everyone equally.

    No, they don't. You think they do because they are applied based on circumstance in which any person could find themselves, and in that context you're correct. However, you could make the exact same argument for slavery, based on the concept of racial and geographical circumstance. Therein, slavery applied to everyone equally as well. If you had been born in Africa or had been black, you could have been a slave. Similarly, if your slave had been born in Virginia and had been white, he could have been a slave owner. Similarly, if both African and Western societies had made different choices throughout history, the tables could have easily been turned wherein Africans could have been sailing West to enslave us.

    You cannot escape the basic fact that you're granting rights to one side of a negotiation that you're withholding from the other. A worker may demand a wage higher than his value and hold the employer to it while the employer cannot demand a wage lower than his value and hold the employee to it.
  • cornnifer
    cornnifer Posts: 2,130
    Pacomc79 wrote:

    Sure everyone has exactly the same everything and they survive and live, but really, it's a pretty dull and boring way to live.

    Tell that to the guy working 80 hours a week a struggling to feed, clothe and shelter his family. Tell that to his hungry children. Tell them on Christmas morning.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    cornnifer wrote:
    Tell that to the guy working 80 hours a week a struggling to feed, clothe and shelter his family. Tell that to his hungry children. Tell them on Christmas morning.

    And what is he going to tell me?
  • Songburst
    Songburst Posts: 1,195
    While I agree that nobody really needs more than 50k a year, I find it difficult to accept that some lazy bastard who sloths his/her way through life could make the same cash as me, while I worked my ass off to pay for an education and I am only now reaping the financial benefits of that work. It's been said, but a maximum wage would create a very lazy, very uncreatve society.
    1/12/1879, 4/8/1156, 2/6/1977, who gives a shit, ...
  • SPEEDY MCCREADY
    SPEEDY MCCREADY Posts: 26,942
    12 pages....

    dedicated to the most fucking ridiculous thread ever .........

    nice job people!!!!
    Take me piece by piece.....
    Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
  • cornnifer
    cornnifer Posts: 2,130
    farfromglorified wrote:
    And what is he going to tell me?
    Perhaps that there are millions of Americans who would give just about anything for a little "boredom".
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    soulsinging, you are brilliant. There is nothing quite like having a compass to go with far-seeing vision. I'm a big fan of yours.

    SPEEDY MCCREADY, I like your observation. And I harken back to the old days of our interactions when I first showed up on this board... and when you called me arrogant!
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • JD Sal
    JD Sal Posts: 790
    "Since September 1997, the purchasing power of the minimum wage has deteriorated by 20 percent. After adjusting for inflation, the value of the minimum wage is at its lowest level since 1955. ... The minimum wage has now fallen to 31 percent -- or less than one-third -- of the average hourly wage for nonsupervisory workers of $16.59 in May. This is the lowest share in the history of this data series, which begins in 1947." [CBPP, 6/20/06]
    "If no one sees you, you're not here at all"
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    cornnifer wrote:
    Perhaps that there are millions of Americans who would give just about anything for a little "boredom".

    And I'm sure he'd be correct. There are millions of Americans who would give just about anything for a little "boredom". And it's certainly their right to give whatever they'd like to find it.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    JD Sal wrote:
    "Since September 1997, the purchasing power of the minimum wage has deteriorated by 20 percent. After adjusting for inflation, the value of the minimum wage is at its lowest level since 1955. ... The minimum wage has now fallen to 31 percent -- or less than one-third -- of the average hourly wage for nonsupervisory workers of $16.59 in May. This is the lowest share in the history of this data series, which begins in 1947." [CBPP, 6/20/06]

    Respond to inflation by paying people more than their labor is worth? Intruiging concept.
  • JD Sal
    JD Sal Posts: 790
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Respond to inflation by paying people more than their labor is worth? Intruiging concept.

    Not really. A single person making the minimum wage is right at the poverty line. What type of labor do you think is worth less than the current minimum wage?
    "If no one sees you, you're not here at all"
  • jeffbr
    jeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    JD Sal wrote:
    Not really. A single person making the minimum wage is right at the poverty line. What type of labor do you think is worth less than the current minimum wage?

    Whatever type of labor the market decides is worth less than the current minimum wage. Whatever type of labor the employee and employer agree to. How else is value of labor rationally determined?
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    JD Sal wrote:
    Not really. A single person making the minimum wage is right at the poverty line. What type of labor do you think is worth less than the current minimum wage?

    Any labor that I wouldn't pay someone $5.15/hour for, but would pay them something for.
  • JD Sal
    JD Sal Posts: 790
    jeffbr wrote:
    Whatever type of labor the market decides is worth less than the current minimum wage. Whatever type of labor the employee and employer agree to. How else is value of labor rationally determined?

    So the market fairly decides the value of labor? Please elaborate.
    "If no one sees you, you're not here at all"

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