Yes, it should. More importantly, however, it should be taken much wiser than it is. Meaning that those who take it should understand that they have no inherent right to do so, that they must earn it the same way your father earned it in the first place. They much exchange for it.
I personally believe that all of the mone you earn is yours. No taxes? sure. Probably a terrible fucking idea. The whole human/americna psyche would need to be completely changed for that to even possibly be an acceptable idea. meaning, if all tha tmoney is yours, perhaps youd be more inclined to donate money to various causes.
or perhaps require a certain amount of your earnings should be required to be donated to various projects/charities of your choosing.
hell i dont know.
Taxes suck, especially since there is a chance i may not even see that money come my time.
I personally believe that all of the mone you earn is yours. No taxes? sure. Probably a terrible fucking idea. The whole human/americna psyche would need to be completely changed for that to even possibly be an acceptable idea. meaning, if all tha tmoney is yours, perhaps youd be more inclined to donate money to various causes.
Yes, the whole human/american psyche would have to change. But that does not a terrible idea make.
fuck that! i want to be a millionaire. i'm not busting my ass at work so some lazy shit sitting on his couch all day makes the same money.
i hate to break it to you but monetary compensation drives innovation. people aren't so noble as to work for the good of society without personal benefit. call it selfishness or greed if you want, but thats just reality. every communist system in its 100 year history from the smallest farm collective to the nation devouring soviet union could never compete and has self-destructed in the face of the realities of the modern, globalized world. globalization isnt going away.
fuck that! i want to be a millionaire. i'm not busting my ass at work so some lazy shit sitting on his couch all day makes the same money.
i hate to break it to you but monetary compensation drives innovation. every communist system from the smallest farm collective to the nation devouring soviet union could never compete.
like the movie says, "greed is good"
Yikes...
First, it was a joke.
Second, greed is not good. What do you think is behind the minimum wage?
I know a lot of people who aren't making that much who definitely are not losers.
I wasn't going to post in this thread ... I'm having way too much fun today to get bogged down in this kind of nonsense ... but yeah, that comment was pretty disrespectful.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
The whole human/americna psyche would need to be completely changed for that to even possibly be an acceptable idea.
The entire human psyche had to be changed when the Federal Income Tax was introduced not all that long ago (in terms of how long the nation has existed). So think big picture. Anything can be sold and can happen.
I wasn't going to post in this thread ... I'm having way too much fun today to get bogged down in this kind of nonsense ... but yeah, that comment was pretty disrespectful.
i would be willing to bet......that the majority of people reading this thread....
dont make $50,000 a year......
disrespectful is an understatement....
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
Thanks to all that played along -- this was fun. And soulsinging was quite right, I do get my jollies from playing the Devil's Advocate.
In all seriousness, the biggest disappointment I found in last night was the minimum wage hike that was passed in a number of states. Shame on the American public for acting like children in demanding something they did not earn simply because they exist. And shame on those who supported such measures using language like "compromise" and "cooperation", thereby rendering those concepts completely null and void by pretending they have no meaning. Would such people ever suggest that those who make the minimum wage should "compromise" or "cooperate" by accepting the existing standards, or no minimum wage at all? Of course not, since such terms that once required mutual choices and interests now only require the demands of one side.
To demand that someone owes you more for their labor than they find it to be worth requires a philosophical prerequisite. Namely, you are stating that in any negotiation on value, one person may be entitled to a different set of rights than another, namely the right of violence. You, when you demand a minimum wage, are stating that you have the right to force someone else to accept your assessment of value as opposed to their own which in turn should make you ask, "how long until those others realize they have the same right?" If you, using the armed force of the state, have the right force me to pay you based on your definition of your own value without regard to my own assessment, on what grounds can you then say that I have no right to simply turn the tables and, using the same armed force, make you to work overtime for free or ban you from quitting your position?
Everything in this world has a value, and your labor is not unique. In a system of free exchange wherein people sell their labor to others who would benefit from it, an honest and equal negotiation is a prerequisite to peace. Why do we recoil from the thought of slavery? Because it violates the basic right of a worker to assign value to their labor and choose an employer and line of work accordingly. Why do we reject from the thought of prescribed employment? Because we will not stand for the will of the worker to be forcefully overriden by the employer. Why then do we not take the same stand on a minimum wage wherein the freedoms of the employer are similarly violated?
For those of you who go on about "peace", I ask the question: what enforces your minimum wage?
For those of you who go on about "common good", I ask the question: who pays your minimum wage?
For those of you who go on about "compromise", I ask the question: what sacrifice to the other party is being made by those who receive that minimum wage?
And for any of you who dares to use the word "earned", I ask the question: since when can earning something involve the use of force?
this is all bullshit. employers can, and do, take their business elsewhere if they feel the work is not worth the wages they have to pay. that's why we have outsourcing. nobody is "forcing" them to pay those wages, becos if they dont want to, they dont have to open a business. or they can open it in a state that did not pass a wage increase.
you may argue there is a federal minimum wage. you're right. how'd it get there? the people voted it into effect. you want to repeal it? see how long you last in office. minimum wage is there becos americans want it there. there is no maximum wage becos americans do NOT want it there. that's democracy... where (thankfully) your solo, abstract, unrealistic ideology cannot trump the beliefs and common sense of the masses.
also, you dont like the federal minimum wage? move to taiwan and start your business. nobody FORCES you to do business here. see how successful a business in taiwan is... where the workers do not earn enough to buy your product.
What is the difference between the gov't setting a minimum wage and the gov't setting a maximum wage?
Why is one more acceptable than the other?
there is no difference. the government did not set a minimum wage. the people did through their representatives. that is why one is more acceptable. it is desired by the majority of the people. the other is not. do i have to explain how representative democracy works?
there is no difference. the government did not set a minimum wage. the people did through their representatives. that is why one is more acceptable. it is desired by the majority of the people. the other is not. do i have to explain how representative democracy works?
So if the majority of the people what to cap salaries at $40,000, or better yet set a standard wage which everyone makes at $40,000 you have no problem with that since it is the will of the masses?
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
this is all bullshit. employers can, and do, take their business elsewhere if they feel the work is not worth the wages they have to pay.
True. Would you like me to do this again under the pretense that I believe government should force American companies to keep jobs here?
that's why we have outsourcing. nobody is "forcing" them to pay those wages, becos if they dont want to, they dont have to open a business. or they can open it in a state that did not pass a wage increase.
If no one is forcing them, what would happen I opened a grocery store right now and paid my workers $4/hour?
you may argue there is a federal minimum wage. you're right. how'd it get there? the people voted it into effect. you want to repeal it? see how long you last in office. minimum wage is there becos americans want it there.
Of course. Can I hide behind such an excuse for every crime or misdeed in American history? Or corporate history?
there is no maximum wage becos americans do NOT want it there. that's democracy... where (thankfully) your solo, abstract, unrealistic ideology cannot trump the beliefs and common sense of the masses.
So the lynch mob becomes the ideal? Weren't you just telling me about the violent end-game of anarchy?
also, you dont like the federal minimum wage? move to taiwan and start your business. nobody FORCES you to do business here. see how successful a business in taiwan is... where the workers do not earn enough to buy your product.
You're entirely right -- no one FORCES me to do business here. Are you suggesting that slavery would have been justified if a) the masses wanted it and b) we asked the slaves nicely to come here first?
$50,000 a person per year is a lot, but some people are highly skilled. I was earlier this week thinking of a similar thing, but thinking (for some random reason) that $3 mill a year was a shitload of money, more than enough for anyone, and should be the cap, beyond which it is taxed 100%.
Now, looking at $50k a year, I'm thinking $500k is still a COMPLETELY ABSURD amount of money, considering I got by just fine on $20k a year for the past six or so. This year business is finally flying and I'm making more, and I have so much money left over its crazy. Paying off school debt, my car, credit cards, everything, with lots left over for savings. Making less than $50k a year. Now, building a house doesn't seem like an impossible goal.
$50k is nice, very plump. $500k is very very rich. $5 million is fucking absurd. $50 million and more? A crime against humanity.
Thanks, FFG. The thread was equally entertaining, enlightening and frightening to me. I hope that anyone who was appalled by your suggestion of a wage cap is also equally appalled by the notion of a minimum wage. I know I am.
And I hope that people who promote wage controls understand exactly what it is they are endorsing.
WOW!!!!!!!!!!! What is so appalling about a minimum wage? I really don't get it. Some of the right wing ideas here are genuinely foreign to me. Please explain where you're coming from regarding such an extreme opinion? And this is directed to jeffbr... not FFG who I'm sure may have some decent points but he makes my head hurt
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Since you didn't seem to be appalled by FFG's thread, and unwittingly played along initially, I'm not surprised you can't see how a minimum wage is theft from others just as a maximum wage is. A minimum wage is an artificial payment of service rather than an exchange for service based on actual value of said labor, just as a maximum wage would be.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I'm very serious. What right do you have to earn more than $50,000 per year without the rest of us approving?
because some of us owe that much or more in student loans because we decided to get an education so we could benefit ourselves and not have to take handout from those who did.....
Cheers,
NEWAGEHIPPIE
Keep your eyes open, eventually something will happen....
Since you didn't seem to be appalled by FFG's thread, and unwittingly played along initially, I'm not surprised you can't see how a minimum wage is theft from others just as a maximum wage is. A minimum wage is an artificial payment of service rather than an exchange for service based on actual value of said labor, just as a maximum wage would be.
Well the lack of a minimum wage is nothing short of slavery... I don't see how it's STEALING. You say the wage should be based on the actual value of said labour? Do you really think there are some people in the world worth LESS than the minimum wage?
I didn't 'play along unwittingly', I knew FFG was taking the piss... but I agreed with his piss taking points.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
because some of us owe that much or more in student loans because we decided to get an education so we could benefit ourselves and not have to take handout from those who did.....
Student loans are a choice (and a very poor one if you ask me). There are plenty of people who do it without them.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Comments
I personally believe that all of the mone you earn is yours. No taxes? sure. Probably a terrible fucking idea. The whole human/americna psyche would need to be completely changed for that to even possibly be an acceptable idea. meaning, if all tha tmoney is yours, perhaps youd be more inclined to donate money to various causes.
or perhaps require a certain amount of your earnings should be required to be donated to various projects/charities of your choosing.
hell i dont know.
Taxes suck, especially since there is a chance i may not even see that money come my time.
Yes, the whole human/american psyche would have to change. But that does not a terrible idea make.
have kat sticky this thread. For it shall live on for the thousands of years it will take.
I think the only way to get a sticky would have been if I were serious.
oh something tells me that ffg's hand muscles hurt.
and not from typing.
cross the river to the eastside
>
...a lover and a fighter.
"I'm at least half a bum" Rocky Balboa
http://www.videosift.com/video/Obamas-Message-To-American-Indians
Edmonton, AB. September 5th, 2005
Vancouver, BC. April 3rd, 2008
Calgary,AB. August 8th, 2009
Surely this is a joke. If you make less than $50k in this country with all the opportunities..you're a loser and that's not my fault.
$50k is chump change.
Now that's just low
Yes, surely it is.
And surely this is a joke too.
i hate to break it to you but monetary compensation drives innovation. people aren't so noble as to work for the good of society without personal benefit. call it selfishness or greed if you want, but thats just reality. every communist system in its 100 year history from the smallest farm collective to the nation devouring soviet union could never compete and has self-destructed in the face of the realities of the modern, globalized world. globalization isnt going away.
Yikes...
First, it was a joke.
Second, greed is not good. What do you think is behind the minimum wage?
sorry, i just liked the movie.
I know a lot of people who aren't making that much who definitely are not losers.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
that group would include most teachers and public workers.
The entire human psyche had to be changed when the Federal Income Tax was introduced not all that long ago (in terms of how long the nation has existed). So think big picture. Anything can be sold and can happen.
Wishlist of Unheard Live Songs
1. All Those Yesterdays
2. God's Dice
3. I Got ID
PLAY THE SPECTRUM IN PHILADELPHIA!!!
dont make $50,000 a year......
disrespectful is an understatement....
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
this is all bullshit. employers can, and do, take their business elsewhere if they feel the work is not worth the wages they have to pay. that's why we have outsourcing. nobody is "forcing" them to pay those wages, becos if they dont want to, they dont have to open a business. or they can open it in a state that did not pass a wage increase.
you may argue there is a federal minimum wage. you're right. how'd it get there? the people voted it into effect. you want to repeal it? see how long you last in office. minimum wage is there becos americans want it there. there is no maximum wage becos americans do NOT want it there. that's democracy... where (thankfully) your solo, abstract, unrealistic ideology cannot trump the beliefs and common sense of the masses.
also, you dont like the federal minimum wage? move to taiwan and start your business. nobody FORCES you to do business here. see how successful a business in taiwan is... where the workers do not earn enough to buy your product.
Why is one more acceptable than the other?
there is no difference. the government did not set a minimum wage. the people did through their representatives. that is why one is more acceptable. it is desired by the majority of the people. the other is not. do i have to explain how representative democracy works?
So if the majority of the people what to cap salaries at $40,000, or better yet set a standard wage which everyone makes at $40,000 you have no problem with that since it is the will of the masses?
True. Would you like me to do this again under the pretense that I believe government should force American companies to keep jobs here?
If no one is forcing them, what would happen I opened a grocery store right now and paid my workers $4/hour?
Of course. Can I hide behind such an excuse for every crime or misdeed in American history? Or corporate history?
So the lynch mob becomes the ideal? Weren't you just telling me about the violent end-game of anarchy?
You're entirely right -- no one FORCES me to do business here. Are you suggesting that slavery would have been justified if a) the masses wanted it and b) we asked the slaves nicely to come here first?
Now, looking at $50k a year, I'm thinking $500k is still a COMPLETELY ABSURD amount of money, considering I got by just fine on $20k a year for the past six or so. This year business is finally flying and I'm making more, and I have so much money left over its crazy. Paying off school debt, my car, credit cards, everything, with lots left over for savings. Making less than $50k a year. Now, building a house doesn't seem like an impossible goal.
$50k is nice, very plump. $500k is very very rich. $5 million is fucking absurd. $50 million and more? A crime against humanity.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
because some of us owe that much or more in student loans because we decided to get an education so we could benefit ourselves and not have to take handout from those who did.....
NEWAGEHIPPIE
Keep your eyes open, eventually something will happen....
I didn't 'play along unwittingly', I knew FFG was taking the piss... but I agreed with his piss taking points.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Student loans are a choice (and a very poor one if you ask me). There are plenty of people who do it without them.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.