Are you asking me what specific jobs the market would pay less than $5.15 / hour for, but would still pay something for? You don't need me to answer that question. Just look around you. Do you own clothes made in SE Asia? Do you own a computer? Do you own a cell phone? Do you drink coffe?
I already did. Labor is valued at precisely what the employer and employee agree upon. You have a better method?
i am not so naive as to agree that an employer and an employee always "agree" on the value of their labor. Its bullshit really. True the employee agrees to sell his labor to the employer for a certain price, but the employee usually realizes they are being ripped the fuck off. Who's to say that a lawyer's labor is worth more than that of the guy who collects our trash? That the v.p. of some corporation is more valueable than those who teach kindergarten? Bullshit.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
True the employee agrees to sell his labor to the employer for a certain price, but the employee usually realizes they are being ripped the fuck off.
Unless we're talking about slavery, I believe the employee has the ability to renegotiate for higher pay if the labor he's doing has greater value. Or he can find a different employer who may place a higher value on his labor.
That the v.p. of some corporation is more valueable than those who teach kindergarten? Bullshit.
The corporation and the school district have decided that, not me.
What is your alternative? Shall we have a blue ribbon panel appointed to set wage scales for various job functions? Perhaps we can get back to the notion of a standard wage that everyone earns regardless of the job they perform and the quality of that performance. Does that work better for you?
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I already did. Labor is valued at precisely what the employer and employee agree upon. You have a better method?
At the current minimum wage level, this is not even close to the truth. Have you ever worked for minimum wage?
Take a poll of minimum wage employees and see if they feel they're being paid the fair market value for their labor. They agree to the salary because there is no other option, except for not working.
Are you asking me what specific jobs the market would pay less than $5.15 / hour for, but would still pay something for? You don't need me to answer that question. Just look around you. Do you own clothes made in SE Asia? Do you own a computer? Do you own a cell phone? Do you drink coffe?
You own a business, right? Are you actually saying that you agree this country should pay "sweat shop" labor for those jobs? Is that the actual fair market value for those positions?
Since many states decided yesterday to further increase the minimum wage, I'd like to propose the next logical step in this process: the maximum wage. It's high time that we put an upper bound on what you can earn in this country. Let's cap all wages at a maximum of $50,000 per year. No person, regardless of ability or value, should be permitted to make over $50,000 in one year because, obviously, no one needs more than $50,000 in one year. All income exceeding $50,000 should be taxed at a 100% rate.
This program will stimulate growth because it will force every business to invest in their own organization's growth, rather than fraudalently lining the pockets of rich fat-cats. Furthermore, we can use that tax money to provide free health care for everyone, including pets. Finally, it will bring about a golden age of equality wherein there will be almost no gap between rich and poor!
Who's with me?
Very nice. Pardon me if this has been pointed out already. I don't have time tonight to read everyone's reply.
Minimum wage was created as a prevention and safeguard to slave labor.
You can't spin a Maximum wage law debate as an equal and opposite argument to the Minimum wage law without talking about slave labor. If this is your pont, well, bless you. Unfortunately for you, you introduced the idea of equality to your argument.
You own a business, right? Are you actually saying that you agree this country should pay "sweat shop" labor for those jobs? Is that the actual fair market value for those positions?
right on JD
anyone that works in the "richest country in the world" deserves much more than 5$ and change an hour.
Why don't you pansies just get off your couches and work your butts off. I plan on making well over 50,000 a year and right now i make 9.50 an hour in a restaurant cooking chicken wings in the butt f#$* of central washington. Anyone in this country has the right to make what ever their hearts desire, it just takes a little work and dedication.
You're not putting any thought into this. You're suggesting that any job that isn't outsourced must be worth the minimum wage, which is ridiculous. You can't outsource a stockboy. You can't outsource a burger-flipper. Furthermore, if it "must be worth it", why even bother with a minimum wage at all? If the actual value of the labor is equal to or greater than your minimum wage, there would be no reason for the law.
See that works both ways then. Nobody is worth less than minimum wage... NOBODY. To say otherwise is extremely arrogant. But like soulsinging said, if an employer pays minimum wage to his employees, he can increase prices if need be, if people still pay well then what's the problem? You hold people to very little value and it's quite disgusting. You think it's FINE to pay somebody $3 an hour if they don't have the means to escape their town where that's the only job? That's why sweat shops exist. People who have never worked in sweat shops generally dont care and proceed to buy something if they like/want it. This is purely selfish and greedy on our part to take advantage of peoples needs to survive.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Whatever type of labor the market decides is worth less than the current minimum wage. Whatever type of labor the employee and employer agree to. How else is value of labor rationally determined?
well the market has decided that minimum wage is the very minimum people are worth. The market's still surviving, isn't it?
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Are you actually saying that you agree this country should pay "sweat shop" labor for those jobs?
They already do. Whether or not I agree with what you or anyone else pays for labor is irrelevant. It isn't any of my business as long as you're involved in a mutual, free exchange.
Is that the actual fair market value for those positions?
You tell me. How much did you pay for the shirt you're wearing? How much did you pay for the cup of coffee you made this morning? What are the things that people make worth to you?
They already do. Whether or not I agree with what you or anyone else pays for labor is irrelevant. It isn't any of my business as long as you're involved in a mutual, free exchange.
You tell me. How much did you pay for the shirt you're wearing? How much did you pay for the cup of coffee you made this morning? What are the things that people make worth to you?
So your opinion is irrelevant? Interesting that you think so poorly of yourself!
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
The minimum wage is fine, it goes some way although restricted to reducing exploitation, maximum wage is plain stupid, it stifles, demotivates and makes the whole system less efficient...
Astoria Crew
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
You tell me. How much did you pay for the shirt you're wearing? How much did you pay for the cup of coffee you made this morning? What are the things that people make worth to you?
and it's not about what things are worth to ME... it's about what things cost. I can't go into a shop and say 'that loaf of bread is not worth 1euro... there's 40c, that's all I consider it to be worth'. How do you get by in this world?
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
They already do. Whether or not I agree with what you or anyone else pays for labor is irrelevant. It isn't any of my business as long as you're involved in a mutual, free exchange.
What may appear to be a mutual, free exchange may not be. People work in sweatshops because they have to for various reasons. Maybe there is no other work - the employer therefore can call the shots (eg. 'I'll pay you a third of minimum wage. You don't like it, leave." Not a choice really - earn peanuts or starve....
Minimum wage was set for a reason, to combat exploitation, poverty and let those people to wish to work (and not volontarily depend on welfare) have some kind of dignity.
You say you own a business... I hope that, if you have employees, you treat them fairly....
What may appear to be a mutual, free exchange may not be. People work in sweatshops because they have to for various reasons. Maybe there is no other work - the employer therefore can call the shots (eg. 'I'll pay you a third of minimum wage. You don't like it, leave." Not a choice really - earn peanuts or starve....
Ok. So the answer is to also eliminate the employer's choice? Pay minimum wage or close?
Minimum wage was set for a reason, to combat exploitation, poverty and let those people to wish to work (and not volontarily depend on welfare) have some kind of dignity.
There is no dignity in forcing another person to accept your terms. And the minimum wage combats neither expoitation or poverty. It exploits employers instead and it increases poverty by marginally increasing unemployment and contributing to inflation.
You say you own a business... I hope that, if you have employees, you treat them fairly....
I treat my employees more than fairly. No employees at my business earn minimum wage since they all hold skilled jobs. There is one notable exception, however. I do employ some part-time typists, where I completely ignore your minimum wage laws. They are paid by typed page. Good typists can make upwards of $40/hour. Bad typists can make less than minimum wage, which means they don't stick around very long.
So your opinion is irrelevant? Interesting that you think so poorly of yourself!
My opinion on what you get paid is irrelevant to the actual pay you receive. Despite that fact, I still think quite highly of myself, as I'm sure you can tell.
Ok. So the answer is to also eliminate the employer's choice? Pay minimum wage or close?
.......
And the minimum wage combats neither expoitation or poverty. It exploits employers instead...
This sounds very capitalist and bourgeois to me. How can you honestly believe it exploits the employer? Oh... of course..... you are an employer... silly me!
How can you honestly believe it exploits the employer?
Because it forces the employer to pay a higher value than he or she believes the labor is worth. Tell me, if the United States passed a minimum price law that said no item sold in any store could be sold for less than $10, would you protest because it would exploit the consumer? I'd certainly hope so. The minimum wage is no different.
Oh... of course..... you are an employer... silly me!
I almost forgot...doing things in self-interest is evil in your world. Does this mean those who make minimum wage should not have any say in the minimum wage, since, well, they also have a self interest?
Because it forces the employer to pay a higher value than he or she believes the labor is worth. Tell me, if the United States passed a minimum price law that said no item sold in any store could be sold for less than $10, would you protest because it would exploit the consumer? I'd certainly hope so. The minimum wage is no different.
When you have to fork out for something, whether labour or goods, you always think it's too much. Employers will be happy to pay as little as they can get away with for maximum profit. Thus the law protecting workers. Not sure about the law in the US but in the EC, one is not allowed to sell goods at a price lower than cost. So there is a minimum 'price' for goods, which I pay. Minimum wage IS different. You are talking about human beings. You're talking about their life and their ability to do more than survive. Just like I'm happy to pay a few pennies more for my fairtrade goods as it will help those supplying these make a decent living, I'm happy to spend a few pennies more on 'local' ethical goods.
There's no denying workers are being exploited by businesses.
I almost forgot...doing things in self-interest is evil in your world. Does this mean those who make minimum wage should not have any say in the minimum wage, since, well, they also have a self interest?
In my world, we do things in self-interest all the time, just like in yours. But I would hope my self-interest doesn't exploit the more vulnerable to a hilt. Not too sure what you mean by the last bit quoted above. The people who make minimum wage already have a say in it... it's called voting.
Why don't you pansies just get off your couches and work your butts off. I plan on making well over 50,000 a year and right now i make 9.50 an hour in a restaurant cooking chicken wings in the butt f#$* of central washington. Anyone in this country has the right to make what ever their hearts desire, it just takes a little work and dedication.
Pardon me for saying it, but, this is bullshit. The playing field in this country is not level. There are millions of children with plenty of natural potential, born into situations that prevent them from ever even discovering, let alone developing and utilizing that potential.
Furthermore, if everyone were to follow "their heart's desire" to the "well over 50,000" at the end of the rainbow, who would collect our trash? Oh, well, i guess at least their would be plenty of doctors to take care of eachother when disease from the rats set in.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Well, you probably can. But you probably won't leave with any bread.
But WHY??? Aren't you FORCING me to pay that much? What if I just want the bread? :cool: Getting back to your car tax thing.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
My opinion on what you get paid is irrelevant to the actual pay you receive. Despite that fact, I still think quite highly of myself, as I'm sure you can tell.
Yes I can!
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Yes, I can, and can't you see how the minimum wage is related to the minimum 'worth' (as you so eloquently put it) of PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Ok. So the answer is to also eliminate the employer's choice? Pay minimum wage or close?
How about manage? That's the difference between a business owner and an entrepreneur.
Edited for typo.
You can tell a man from what he has to say - Neil & Tim Finn
They love you so badly for sharing their sorrow, so pick up that guitar and go break a heart - Kris Kristofferson
Comments
You didn't answer my question.
Are you asking me what specific jobs the market would pay less than $5.15 / hour for, but would still pay something for? You don't need me to answer that question. Just look around you. Do you own clothes made in SE Asia? Do you own a computer? Do you own a cell phone? Do you drink coffe?
I already did. Labor is valued at precisely what the employer and employee agree upon. You have a better method?
i am not so naive as to agree that an employer and an employee always "agree" on the value of their labor. Its bullshit really. True the employee agrees to sell his labor to the employer for a certain price, but the employee usually realizes they are being ripped the fuck off. Who's to say that a lawyer's labor is worth more than that of the guy who collects our trash? That the v.p. of some corporation is more valueable than those who teach kindergarten? Bullshit.
Of course it isn't bullshit if they both agree and freely enter into an exchange.
Unless we're talking about slavery, I believe the employee has the ability to renegotiate for higher pay if the labor he's doing has greater value. Or he can find a different employer who may place a higher value on his labor.
The law firm and the waste management company.
The corporation and the school district have decided that, not me.
What is your alternative? Shall we have a blue ribbon panel appointed to set wage scales for various job functions? Perhaps we can get back to the notion of a standard wage that everyone earns regardless of the job they perform and the quality of that performance. Does that work better for you?
At the current minimum wage level, this is not even close to the truth. Have you ever worked for minimum wage?
Take a poll of minimum wage employees and see if they feel they're being paid the fair market value for their labor. They agree to the salary because there is no other option, except for not working.
You own a business, right? Are you actually saying that you agree this country should pay "sweat shop" labor for those jobs? Is that the actual fair market value for those positions?
Very nice. Pardon me if this has been pointed out already. I don't have time tonight to read everyone's reply.
Minimum wage was created as a prevention and safeguard to slave labor.
You can't spin a Maximum wage law debate as an equal and opposite argument to the Minimum wage law without talking about slave labor. If this is your pont, well, bless you. Unfortunately for you, you introduced the idea of equality to your argument.
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except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
right on JD
anyone that works in the "richest country in the world" deserves much more than 5$ and change an hour.
period
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Yes.
They already do. Whether or not I agree with what you or anyone else pays for labor is irrelevant. It isn't any of my business as long as you're involved in a mutual, free exchange.
You tell me. How much did you pay for the shirt you're wearing? How much did you pay for the cup of coffee you made this morning? What are the things that people make worth to you?
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
What may appear to be a mutual, free exchange may not be. People work in sweatshops because they have to for various reasons. Maybe there is no other work - the employer therefore can call the shots (eg. 'I'll pay you a third of minimum wage. You don't like it, leave." Not a choice really - earn peanuts or starve....
Minimum wage was set for a reason, to combat exploitation, poverty and let those people to wish to work (and not volontarily depend on welfare) have some kind of dignity.
You say you own a business... I hope that, if you have employees, you treat them fairly....
Ok. So the answer is to also eliminate the employer's choice? Pay minimum wage or close?
There is no dignity in forcing another person to accept your terms. And the minimum wage combats neither expoitation or poverty. It exploits employers instead and it increases poverty by marginally increasing unemployment and contributing to inflation.
I treat my employees more than fairly. No employees at my business earn minimum wage since they all hold skilled jobs. There is one notable exception, however. I do employ some part-time typists, where I completely ignore your minimum wage laws. They are paid by typed page. Good typists can make upwards of $40/hour. Bad typists can make less than minimum wage, which means they don't stick around very long.
Do you not see how those two things are related?
Well, you probably can. But you probably won't leave with any bread.
By working and exchanging my labor with others at mutually agreed-upon values.
My opinion on what you get paid is irrelevant to the actual pay you receive. Despite that fact, I still think quite highly of myself, as I'm sure you can tell.
This sounds very capitalist and bourgeois to me. How can you honestly believe it exploits the employer? Oh... of course..... you are an employer... silly me!
:eek:
Because it forces the employer to pay a higher value than he or she believes the labor is worth. Tell me, if the United States passed a minimum price law that said no item sold in any store could be sold for less than $10, would you protest because it would exploit the consumer? I'd certainly hope so. The minimum wage is no different.
I almost forgot...doing things in self-interest is evil in your world. Does this mean those who make minimum wage should not have any say in the minimum wage, since, well, they also have a self interest?
When you have to fork out for something, whether labour or goods, you always think it's too much. Employers will be happy to pay as little as they can get away with for maximum profit. Thus the law protecting workers. Not sure about the law in the US but in the EC, one is not allowed to sell goods at a price lower than cost. So there is a minimum 'price' for goods, which I pay. Minimum wage IS different. You are talking about human beings. You're talking about their life and their ability to do more than survive. Just like I'm happy to pay a few pennies more for my fairtrade goods as it will help those supplying these make a decent living, I'm happy to spend a few pennies more on 'local' ethical goods.
There's no denying workers are being exploited by businesses.
In my world, we do things in self-interest all the time, just like in yours. But I would hope my self-interest doesn't exploit the more vulnerable to a hilt. Not too sure what you mean by the last bit quoted above. The people who make minimum wage already have a say in it... it's called voting.
Pardon me for saying it, but, this is bullshit. The playing field in this country is not level. There are millions of children with plenty of natural potential, born into situations that prevent them from ever even discovering, let alone developing and utilizing that potential.
Furthermore, if everyone were to follow "their heart's desire" to the "well over 50,000" at the end of the rainbow, who would collect our trash? Oh, well, i guess at least their would be plenty of doctors to take care of eachother when disease from the rats set in.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
How about manage? That's the difference between a business owner and an entrepreneur.
Edited for typo.
They love you so badly for sharing their sorrow, so pick up that guitar and go break a heart - Kris Kristofferson