Maximum Wage

JD Sal

farfromglorified wrote:

Any labor that I wouldn't pay someone $5.15/hour for, but would pay them something for.

You didn't answer my question.

farfromglorified

JD Sal wrote:

You didn't answer my question.

Are you asking me what specific jobs the market would pay less than $5.15 / hour for, but would still pay something for? You don't need me to answer that question. Just look around you. Do you own clothes made in SE Asia? Do you own a computer? Do you own a cell phone? Do you drink coffe?

jeffbr

JD Sal wrote:

So the market fairly decides the value of labor? Please elaborate.

I already did. Labor is valued at precisely what the employer and employee agree upon. You have a better method?

cornnifer

jeffbr wrote:

I already did. Labor is valued at precisely what the employer and employee agree upon. You have a better method?

i am not so naive as to agree that an employer and an employee always "agree" on the value of their labor. Its bullshit really. True the employee agrees to sell his labor to the employer for a certain price, but the employee usually realizes they are being ripped the fuck off. Who's to say that a lawyer's labor is worth more than that of the guy who collects our trash? That the v.p. of some corporation is more valueable than those who teach kindergarten? Bullshit.

jeffbr

cornnifer wrote:

i am not so naive as to agree that an employer and an employee always "agree" on the value of their labor. Its bullshit really.

Of course it isn't bullshit if they both agree and freely enter into an exchange.

cornnifer wrote:

True the employee agrees to sell his labor to the employer for a certain price, but the employee usually realizes they are being ripped the fuck off.

Unless we're talking about slavery, I believe the employee has the ability to renegotiate for higher pay if the labor he's doing has greater value. Or he can find a different employer who may place a higher value on his labor.

cornnifer wrote:

Who's to say that a lawyer's labor is worth more than that of the guy who collects our trash?

The law firm and the waste management company.

cornnifer wrote:

That the v.p. of some corporation is more valueable than those who teach kindergarten? Bullshit.

The corporation and the school district have decided that, not me.

What is your alternative? Shall we have a blue ribbon panel appointed to set wage scales for various job functions? Perhaps we can get back to the notion of a standard wage that everyone earns regardless of the job they perform and the quality of that performance. Does that work better for you?

JD Sal

jeffbr wrote:

I already did. Labor is valued at precisely what the employer and employee agree upon. You have a better method?

At the current minimum wage level, this is not even close to the truth. Have you ever worked for minimum wage?

Take a poll of minimum wage employees and see if they feel they're being paid the fair market value for their labor. They agree to the salary because there is no other option, except for not working.

JD Sal

farfromglorified wrote:

Are you asking me what specific jobs the market would pay less than $5.15 / hour for, but would still pay something for? You don't need me to answer that question. Just look around you. Do you own clothes made in SE Asia? Do you own a computer? Do you own a cell phone? Do you drink coffe?

You own a business, right? Are you actually saying that you agree this country should pay "sweat shop" labor for those jobs? Is that the actual fair market value for those positions?

gue_barium

farfromglorified wrote:

Since many states decided yesterday to further increase the minimum wage, I'd like to propose the next logical step in this process: the maximum wage. It's high time that we put an upper bound on what you can earn in this country. Let's cap all wages at a maximum of $50,000 per year. No person, regardless of ability or value, should be permitted to make over $50,000 in one year because, obviously, no one needs more than $50,000 in one year. All income exceeding $50,000 should be taxed at a 100% rate.

This program will stimulate growth because it will force every business to invest in their own organization's growth, rather than fraudalently lining the pockets of rich fat-cats. Furthermore, we can use that tax money to provide free health care for everyone, including pets. Finally, it will bring about a golden age of equality wherein there will be almost no gap between rich and poor!

Who's with me?

Very nice. Pardon me if this has been pointed out already. I don't have time tonight to read everyone's reply.
Minimum wage was created as a prevention and safeguard to slave labor.
You can't spin a Maximum wage law debate as an equal and opposite argument to the Minimum wage law without talking about slave labor. If this is your pont, well, bless you. Unfortunately for you, you introduced the idea of equality to your argument.

my2hands

JD Sal wrote:

You own a business, right? Are you actually saying that you agree this country should pay "sweat shop" labor for those jobs? Is that the actual fair market value for those positions?

right on JD

anyone that works in the "richest country in the world" deserves much more than 5$ and change an hour.

period

Skimanted

Why don't you pansies just get off your couches and work your butts off. I plan on making well over 50,000 a year and right now i make 9.50 an hour in a restaurant cooking chicken wings in the butt f#$* of central washington. Anyone in this country has the right to make what ever their hearts desire, it just takes a little work and dedication.

Heineken Helen

farfromglorified wrote:

You're not putting any thought into this. You're suggesting that any job that isn't outsourced must be worth the minimum wage, which is ridiculous. You can't outsource a stockboy. You can't outsource a burger-flipper. Furthermore, if it "must be worth it", why even bother with a minimum wage at all? If the actual value of the labor is equal to or greater than your minimum wage, there would be no reason for the law.

See that works both ways then. Nobody is worth less than minimum wage... NOBODY. To say otherwise is extremely arrogant. But like soulsinging said, if an employer pays minimum wage to his employees, he can increase prices if need be, if people still pay well then what's the problem? You hold people to very little value and it's quite disgusting. You think it's FINE to pay somebody $3 an hour if they don't have the means to escape their town where that's the only job? That's why sweat shops exist. People who have never worked in sweat shops generally dont care and proceed to buy something if they like/want it. This is purely selfish and greedy on our part to take advantage of peoples needs to survive.

Heineken Helen

jeffbr wrote:

Whatever type of labor the market decides is worth less than the current minimum wage. Whatever type of labor the employee and employer agree to. How else is value of labor rationally determined?

well the market has decided that minimum wage is the very minimum people are worth. The market's still surviving, isn't it?

farfromglorified

JD Sal wrote:

You own a business, right?

Yes.

Are you actually saying that you agree this country should pay "sweat shop" labor for those jobs?

They already do. Whether or not I agree with what you or anyone else pays for labor is irrelevant. It isn't any of my business as long as you're involved in a mutual, free exchange.

Is that the actual fair market value for those positions?

You tell me. How much did you pay for the shirt you're wearing? How much did you pay for the cup of coffee you made this morning? What are the things that people make worth to you?

Heineken Helen

farfromglorified wrote:

Yes.



They already do. Whether or not I agree with what you or anyone else pays for labor is irrelevant. It isn't any of my business as long as you're involved in a mutual, free exchange.



You tell me. How much did you pay for the shirt you're wearing? How much did you pay for the cup of coffee you made this morning? What are the things that people make worth to you?

So your opinion is irrelevant? Interesting that you think so poorly of yourself!

UKDave

The minimum wage is fine, it goes some way although restricted to reducing exploitation, maximum wage is plain stupid, it stifles, demotivates and makes the whole system less efficient...

Heineken Helen

farfromglorified wrote:

You tell me. How much did you pay for the shirt you're wearing? How much did you pay for the cup of coffee you made this morning? What are the things that people make worth to you?

and it's not about what things are worth to ME... it's about what things cost. I can't go into a shop and say 'that loaf of bread is not worth 1euro... there's 40c, that's all I consider it to be worth'. How do you get by in this world?

redrock

farfromglorified wrote:

They already do. Whether or not I agree with what you or anyone else pays for labor is irrelevant. It isn't any of my business as long as you're involved in a mutual, free exchange.

What may appear to be a mutual, free exchange may not be. People work in sweatshops because they have to for various reasons. Maybe there is no other work - the employer therefore can call the shots (eg. 'I'll pay you a third of minimum wage. You don't like it, leave." Not a choice really - earn peanuts or starve....

Minimum wage was set for a reason, to combat exploitation, poverty and let those people to wish to work (and not volontarily depend on welfare) have some kind of dignity.

You say you own a business... I hope that, if you have employees, you treat them fairly....

farfromglorified

redrock wrote:

What may appear to be a mutual, free exchange may not be. People work in sweatshops because they have to for various reasons. Maybe there is no other work - the employer therefore can call the shots (eg. 'I'll pay you a third of minimum wage. You don't like it, leave." Not a choice really - earn peanuts or starve....

Ok. So the answer is to also eliminate the employer's choice? Pay minimum wage or close?

Minimum wage was set for a reason, to combat exploitation, poverty and let those people to wish to work (and not volontarily depend on welfare) have some kind of dignity.

There is no dignity in forcing another person to accept your terms. And the minimum wage combats neither expoitation or poverty. It exploits employers instead and it increases poverty by marginally increasing unemployment and contributing to inflation.

You say you own a business... I hope that, if you have employees, you treat them fairly....

I treat my employees more than fairly. No employees at my business earn minimum wage since they all hold skilled jobs. There is one notable exception, however. I do employ some part-time typists, where I completely ignore your minimum wage laws. They are paid by typed page. Good typists can make upwards of $40/hour. Bad typists can make less than minimum wage, which means they don't stick around very long.

farfromglorified

Heineken Helen wrote:

and it's not about what things are worth to ME... it's about what things cost.

Do you not see how those two things are related?

I can't go into a shop and say 'that loaf of bread is not worth 1euro... there's 40c, that's all I consider it to be worth'.

Well, you probably can. But you probably won't leave with any bread.

How do you get by in this world?

By working and exchanging my labor with others at mutually agreed-upon values.

farfromglorified

Heineken Helen wrote:

So your opinion is irrelevant? Interesting that you think so poorly of yourself!

My opinion on what you get paid is irrelevant to the actual pay you receive. Despite that fact, I still think quite highly of myself, as I'm sure you can tell.