At what stage does abortion become murder?

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  • comebackwoman
    comebackwoman Posts: 7,271
    decides2dream wrote:
    i am amazed at how we as a group can continue to debate the same subject, over and over, and come back for more. :p i was actually thinking just the other day...wow.....been awhile since there's been an abortion thread here and how unusual. damn you LAO. ;)

    that said, i completely agree with all comebackgirl's points and i'll leave it at that. thank you so for eloquently speaking my views too. :)


    Glad I could return the favor ;)
    There's a light when my baby's in my arms :)
  • humanlight
    humanlight Posts: 271
    I think the problem here really is a legal v.s moral question. When is it legal to have an abortion. Is that the same time frame it is morally okay? Legally I have no problem with abortion. If a woman chooses that option, then okay. But morally, I could never use it myself. I think it become very sticky when the government begins to push legal standards on moral issues like this.
    "F**K you, I have laundry to do" -ed
  • bootlegger10
    bootlegger10 Posts: 16,296
    comebackgirl wrote:
    Ask the fetus what it wants and get back to me when you hear an answer.

    I'll ask the 6 month year old and get the same response.
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    know1 wrote:
    Ask a 6-month old baby what it wants and get back to me with an answer as well.

    I think the fact that it's growing, developing, etc., could be taken as proof that it wants to live.
    Interesting. Can the fact that my body is attempting to destroy itself be taken as proof that I want to die?
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • bootlegger10
    bootlegger10 Posts: 16,296
    hippiemom wrote:
    Interesting. Can the fact that my body is attempting to destroy itself be taken as proof that I want to die?

    How many kids say to their mom, "Why didn't you abort me? You knew I didn't want to live."
  • comebackwoman
    comebackwoman Posts: 7,271
    angelica wrote:
    We are still 100% accountable for any and all decisions we make on behalf of the 6 month old. Or the newborn, or any others in our charge. We're 100% responsible for our actions, whether we accept or face our responsibility or not.


    I definitely agree with the accountability issue. We are responsible for our actions and our choices, including the difficult decision of abortion. And whatever choice someone makes (whether it's to forgo protection, have an abortion, place of adoption, or continue to term and parent), ultimately the person will have to deal with the ramifications of that choice.
    There's a light when my baby's in my arms :)
  • bootlegger10
    bootlegger10 Posts: 16,296
    This should stir up something....

    Why can't women realize that they are the baby makers? You have sex, and from that you may get pregnant. That's being a woman. Deal with it.
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    comebackgirl wrote:
    I do. I think as long as it's inside my body and depending on me for nourisment, that I should have the right to remove it. Ideally, people would take proper precautions (and have the information and resources to do so), so they can avoid the pregnancy in the first place. Unfortunately, few options are 100% effective (other than abstinence, which isn't the right option for everone. Major respect for your decision, though. Impressive). People don't know that antibiotics or some natural rememdies affect their pill. Condoms break or are defective. Some people throw caution to the wind and do make the really stupid decision to forgo protection. That's the type of situation that irks me the most. It is definitely and ethical dilemma. Ultimately, however, I don't believe a woman should have to carry a fetus to term in her body if she doesn't want to.
    My decision to become celibate had nothing to do with birth control on my part. At the same time, the birth control thing is a benefit, for sure. I appreciate the respect.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • humanlight
    humanlight Posts: 271
    I understand, but isn't this what the discussion is about...how to deal with it?
    "F**K you, I have laundry to do" -ed
  • LikeAnOcean
    LikeAnOcean Posts: 7,718
    danmac wrote:
    Hang on, kindergartens on recess.

    Does a one year old need its specific biological mother to survive?

    Does a one year old medically need its specific biological mother to eat or be clothed?

    Do all children whose mothers die in childbirth die?

    Do all children whose parents die at any time in their upbringing, survive?

    What are orphans, or adopted children? have they survived without biological mothers?

    Can a foetus survive without the woman who carries it?

    Simple, really.
    I'm not talking biological obviously. A 1 year old needs another human to take care of them. They can't survive on their own.
  • LikeAnOcean
    LikeAnOcean Posts: 7,718
    decides2dream wrote:
    i am amazed at how we as a group can continue to debate the same subject, over and over, and come back for more. :p i was actually thinking just the other day...wow.....been awhile since there's been an abortion thread here and how unusual. damn you LAO. ;)

    that said, i completely agree with all comebackgirl's points and i'll leave it at that. thank you so for eloquently speaking my views too. :)
    Ha, ha!. I know, I know.. I was just thinking about abortion and war, you know. the typical dilemmas in life. :p
  • thankyougrandma
    thankyougrandma Posts: 1,182
    bootlegger10 wrote:
    This should stir up something....

    Why can't women realize that they are the baby makers? You have sex, and from that you may get pregnant. That's being a woman. Deal with it.

    that's your choice...
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  • comebackwoman
    comebackwoman Posts: 7,271
    bootlegger10 wrote:
    How many kids say to their mom, "Why didn't you abort me? You knew I didn't want to live."

    Sadly, I hear kids say far too often that they want to die, wish they were never born, etc. They are usually growing up in homes where they are unwanted, unloved and mistreated. Not always, but often enough, their parents didn't want them in the first place. They didn't choose abortion, but they're slowly killing their kids anyway. I have more of a problem with that than with expelling a fetus from a uterus.

    The whole issue is so much bigger than abortion. It's about educating people about how to make responsible decisions and making sure they have access to resources to do so. We need to create an environment in which people develop healthy self-esteem so that they can make positive choices. We need a society in which economics never has to enter into the decision about whether or not to continue a pregnancy. It's huge and abortion is just a tiny piece. We need to start with all of the other circumstances that lead up to abortion even being necessary.
    There's a light when my baby's in my arms :)
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    bootlegger10 wrote:
    This should stir up something....

    Why can't women realize that they are the baby makers? You have sex, and from that you may get pregnant. That's being a woman. Deal with it.
    We do deal with it. It's just that you don't always approve of the way we deal with it. That's your problem ... deal with it.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • LikeAnOcean
    LikeAnOcean Posts: 7,718
    I was hoping for more people in this thread to question their own beliefs like I did. I guess that didn't work.. my real question can't be answered I guess.
  • thankyougrandma
    thankyougrandma Posts: 1,182
    hippiemom wrote:
    We do deal with it. It's just that you don't always approve of the way we deal with it. That's your problem ... deal with it.

    yeah that's why it's called pro-choice, if you think it's immoral, deal with your unwanted pregnacy, it shouldn't be impose to others as a wrong value, choose...
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    comebackgirl wrote:
    I definitely agree with the accountability issue. We are responsible for our actions and our choices, including the difficult decision of abortion. And whatever choice someone makes (whether it's to forgo protection, have an abortion, place of adoption, or continue to term and parent), ultimately the person will have to deal with the ramifications of that choice.

    This is the part that gets me. We are not only accountable for what we accept accountability for. Or we are not only accountable for what we see as our accountability. We are accountable for any ethical responsibility for our actions. And when we fall short there are consequences.

    Many, many people are out of touch with the consequences of their own actions and therefore create effects that ripple forward, perpetuating cycles for years to come. Then we say "why me??". Many times we are unwilling to really search our deepest selves and to make our decisions in the light of insight.

    It makes me sad that in our western world, it's often either/or--we're either for or against, and in the meantime, we don't allow ourselves to really honestly find what is right for our own hearts. And we pay big.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • comebackwoman
    comebackwoman Posts: 7,271
    bootlegger10 wrote:
    This should stir up something....

    Why can't women realize that they are the baby makers? You have sex, and from that you may get pregnant. That's being a woman. Deal with it.


    This fetus isn't developing in the man's body so he doesn't get to make the decision to have an abortion or not. And if he does get someone pregnant and she decides not to have an abortion, he gets to pay child support for 18-22 years. Deal with it.
    There's a light when my baby's in my arms :)
  • humanlight
    humanlight Posts: 271
    LikeAnOcean wrote:
    I was hoping for more people in this thread to question their own beliefs like I did. I guess that didn't work.. my real question can't be answered I guess.


    I have questioned my own beliefs, and I too am in a pickle. I do not feel the abortion is okay FOR ME in a birth control situation. However, I do not feel it should be illegal either. My moral delima should not be the reason other women (who are not of my ethnic, religious, spiritual, or cultural backgroud) do not have the right to choose. So here in lies the pickle: how can a support something that I don't support?
    "F**K you, I have laundry to do" -ed
  • bootlegger10
    bootlegger10 Posts: 16,296
    comebackgirl wrote:
    This fetus isn't developing in the man's body so he doesn't get to make the decision to have an abortion or not. And if he does get someone pregnant and she decides not to have an abortion, he gets to pay child support for 18-22 years. Deal with it.

    Did I ever say the man shouldn't pay child support? In most cases you should probably know who you are making a baby with well enough to know whether or not they'll pay child support. Shame on you if you don't.

    A man and woman hook up to have a baby. It's their baby. It just so happens that the woman develops the baby. That's the way it has been for all time. Women should figure that out. A man should have a say in whether or not a baby is aborted. Deal with that.

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