Going to the US?

dunkman · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

Yes... but now they will keep it for 15 years... and allow everyone down to local governments and foreign governments (including your own, who don't have the right to ask you for it themselves). Also they can now contact everyone down to your local priest for information on you BEFORE you travel AND they're taking the information on kids.

lets dispel the myths.

1. keep what exactly? your travel plans? thats all the ESTA database will store.. fingerprints /DNA were brought up by others and are not part of the original thread subject which was the ESTA.

2. my government will only receive this information, subject to the various protocols and beaurocracy if they consider me a suspect in a major crime/terrorist action. if my government want info on my about my priest they can easily see that on the census data, then query that census data based on my postcode.. etc.

Information may be shared with appropriate federal, state, local, tribal, and foreign governmental agencies or multilateral governmental organizations responsible for investigating or prosecuting the violations of, or for enforcing or implementing, a statute, rule, regulation, order or license, or where DHS believes information would assist enforcement of civil or criminal laws. Additionally, information may be shared when DHS reasonably believes such use is to assist in anti-terrorism efforts or intelligence gathering related to national or international security or transnational crime. All sharing will remain consistent with the Privacy Act System of Records Notice, which is available on the DHS Web site.

Heineken Helen · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

DUNK... a 5 year old ALREADY has her fingerprints taken to go to the states... don't you know this? I gave MY print last year to go to Chicago.

YOU were the one who brought up DNA... not me!

when you're finished googling come back and tell us how much you 'know' about it :rolleyes:

dunkman · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

DUNK... a 5 year old ALREADY has her fingerprints taken to go to the states... don't you know this? I gave MY print last year to go to Chicago.

YOU were the one who brought up DNA... not me!

my post was directed at Mammasan who in response to this thread about ESTA mentioned fingerprints... the ESTA doesnt include fingerprinting as its a procedure you do PRIOR to even arriving in the US.

the info you give on a ESTA is the info you give your travel agent, its on your passport, etc etc etc...

its no more or no less than that.

fingerprinting and eyeball scanning are clearly already in operation.... this NEW procedure doesnt even mention those things... hence my skepticism at all this hoo-hah about it all.

EDIT: i brought up DNA in relation to something totally out of context with this thread... you've made it into a thing... this thread is about the ESTA... which isnt a fingerprint/DNA storage procedure.. Australia already has something like it... go lambast them

dunkman · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

when you're finished googling come back and tell us how much you 'know' about it :rolleyes:

its maybe something you should do once in a while before going apeshit about a procedure thats not even in place yet.

they dont do a visa debit card in Ireland apparently

:rolleyes:

it's called reading about the subject matter... like you 'know' any more about it than me.. you just read the same fucking website?

Heineken Helen · July 2008

dunkman wrote:

my post was directed at Mammasan who in response to this thread about ESTA mentioned fingerprints... the ESTA doesnt include fingerprinting as its a procedure you do PRIOR to even arriving in the US.

the info you give on a ESTA is the info you give your travel agent, its on your passport, etc etc etc...

its no more or no less than that.

fingerprinting and eyeball scanning are clearly already in operation.... this NEW procedure doesnt even mention those things... hence my skepticism at all this hoo-hah about it all.

Hang on... I've mentioned at least three times how fingerprinting and eye scanning is already in operation IN THIS THREAD! :rolleyes:

That's fine... you just continue to hand over whatever info you want... if you're happy with that... but don't expect everyone else to be :mad:

Heineken Helen · July 2008

dunkman wrote:

EDIT: i brought up DNA in relation to something totally out of context with this thread... you've made it into a thing... this thread is about the ESTA... which isnt a fingerprint/DNA storage procedure.. Australia already has something like it... go lambast them

YOU mentioned DNA first... I said don't get me started... next post you mentioned how it has nothing to do with DNA, I said 'I know, you brought it up'... then NEXT post you mentioned AGAIN how it has nothing to do with DNA... again, I said 'I know, you brought it up'... so how I made it into a thing is beyond me

Heineken Helen · July 2008

dunkman wrote:

its maybe something you should do once in a while before going apeshit about a procedure thats not even in place yet.

they dont do a visa debit card in Ireland apparently :rolleyes:

it's called reading about the subject matter... like you 'know' any more about it than me.. you just read the same fucking website?

what are you getting so fucking annoyed about? You seem to enjoy taking the piss out of me on these matters and it's getting really really fucking old and boring dunk!

I'm sure everyone else was willing to have a grown up conversation about it til you bring your little issues into it.

dunkman · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

Hang on... I've mentioned at least three times how fingerprinting and eye scanning is already in operation IN THIS THREAD! :rolleyes:

yeah, i think we can drop this.. you've misinterpreted what i was saying (in reply to someone else's post) but anyhoo

Heineken Helen wrote:

That's fine... you just continue to hand over whatever info you want... if you're happy with that... but don't expect everyone else to be :mad:

and conversely you cant get mad at people who just dont see it as a big thing... i'm not expecting people to be happy about it but if you want to go to america then fill in the fuckin forms... if you dont then just dont fill them in... dont go?!

i WANT to go to the US and if it means telling them that 13 years ago i got fined £50 for pissing in the street than thats what i'll do... if it means telling them my height, eye colour, fingerprints, etc.. then thats ok for me (and obviously it is for about 30 million other people who visit each year)

i dont plan any major terrorist activity on my travels, dont want to murder anyone... i doubt they'll use my ID to conduct international murder and intrigue using spies and aliases etc etc...

mammasan · July 2008

I will just let the Scot and Irish duke this one out.

dunkman · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

YOU mentioned DNA first... I said don't get me started... next post you mentioned how it has nothing to do with DNA, I said 'I know, you brought it up'... then NEXT post you mentioned AGAIN how it has nothing to do with DNA... again, I said 'I know, you brought it up'... so how I made it into a thing is beyond me

i mentioned DNA in relation to this:-

Heineken Helen wrote:

and now they have my prints on file even though I did nothing wrong :(

to which i answered:-

dunkman wrote:

and in the event you maybe do do something wrong then they'll be able to match your fingerprints and catch you quicker.

i cant understand what the fuss is about.... you moan if the police dont catch criminals then moan if they put things into place to try and catch them?

all school janitors must go through the Disclosure Process now... this after the Soham murders a while back... are there rights being violated?? i for one couldnt give a fuck if they are... they are working with kids...

loony lefties are all for human rights and stuff... wait till there house is broken into and then here them cry on TV about how the police dont have a national DNA/fingerprint database... of course they dont... you didnt want one?!?

Heineken Helen · July 2008

dunkman wrote:

and conversely you cant get mad at people who just dont see it as a big thing... i'm not expecting people to be happy about it but if you want to go to america then fill in the fuckin forms... if you dont then just dont fill them in... dont go?!

but don't you see... there's a lot of instances that equate. Like it's as simple as if you don't wanna give them that information, don't go. My point is why the hell should I have to? Why should it BE a choice... why do I have to give up private information on myself that they will hold for 15 years just cos I want to do a week long roadtrip. NOT even getting into the finger print thing :eek:

dunkman · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

I'm sure everyone else was willing to have a grown up conversation about it til you bring your little issues into it.

its the message pit.. i seriously doubt that

Heineken Helen · July 2008

mammasan wrote:

I will just let the Scot and Irish duke this one out.

Nah, I'm done! Was hoping we could have a mature discussion for once... but when someone mentions 'loony lefties' in their first post... and comes into any thread like this to simply take the piss out of me... it gets pretty fucking tiring :(

dunkman · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

but don't you see... there's a lot of instances that equate. Like it's as simple as if you don't wanna give them that information, don't go. My point is why the hell should I have to? Why should it BE a choice... why do I have to give up private information on myself that they will hold for 15 years just cos I want to do a week long roadtrip. NOT even getting into the finger print thing :eek:

i understand what you're saying but in strange way its like this forum... those are the rules you must adhere to be on here... thats what the US wants from you to enter into its borders...

lets say a man was being tracked for terrorism related activities, and he gained entry into the US somehow.. wouldnt it be in their best interests to know where this guy had been, was going, what flights he was due on, had been on, his prints (sorry!

) etc etc...

dunkman · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

Nah, I'm done! Was hoping we could have a mature discussion for once... but when someone mentions 'loony lefties' in their first post... and comes into any thread like this to simply take the piss out of me... it gets pretty fucking tiring :(

i didnt come in to take the piss... but it was you who says things like 'still googling dunk' then ... kettle black etc...

i came onto this thread as I am totally against conspiracy theorists and all their scaremongering and worry about things that dont actually happen except in the movies...

you fill out your details in every aspect of daily life.. car, passport, bank, tv licence, doctors, prescriptions, blah blah... totally endless... filling in a an electronic form about you travel plans when visiting another country is microscopic in its annoyance in comparison to normal daily life.

Heineken Helen · July 2008

dunkman wrote:

i understand what you're saying but in strange way its like this forum... those are the rules you must adhere to be on here... thats what the US wants from you to enter into its borders...

lets say a man was being tracked for terrorism related activities, and he gained entry into the US somehow.. wouldnt it be in their best interests to know where this guy had been, was going, what flights he was due on, had been on, his prints (sorry! ) etc etc...

I know it's the rules I must adhere to if I want to go there... I've made the point that I'm now going to have to consider whether I want to go there THAT much! And just cos rules are in place... doesn't mean I have to agree to them... and doesn't make them right.

I can understand background checks if you want to work with kids... but a background check simply to go on holiday is a whole different story :eek:

dunkman · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

I know it's the rules I must adhere to if I want to go there... I've made the point that I'm now going to have to consider whether I want to go there THAT much! And just cos rules are in place... doesn't mean I have to agree to them... and doesn't make them right.

like i said.. i understand that.. i truly do.. I and many others like me are ok with giving out their info if thats what the destination country wants.. you and others like you arent. fair enough

Heineken Helen wrote:

I can understand background checks if you want to work with kids... but a background check simply to go on holiday is a whole different story :eek:

hmmm.. i dunno... i'd be safer in the knowledge that the Scottish government refused entry to a suspected/convicted paedophile than i would be if we didnt have such checks...

ESTA adds another layer of security that allows DHS to determine, in advance of travel, whether an individual is eligible to travel to the United States under the VWP and whether such travel poses a law enforcement or security risk.

i'm sorry, but i just dont think that this is such a bad idea... if i was a muslim guy from Oman then i might think differently... but i'm not so its not a big deal to me

Heineken Helen · July 2008

dunkman wrote:

like i said.. i understand that.. i truly do.. I and many others like me are ok with giving out their info if thats what the destination country wants.. you and others like you arent. fair enough

hmmm.. i dunno... i'd be safer in the knowledge that the Scottish government refused entry to a suspected/convicted paedophile than i would be if we didnt have such checks...

ESTA adds another layer of security that allows DHS to determine, in advance of travel, whether an individual is eligible to travel to the United States under the VWP and whether such travel poses a law enforcement or security risk.

i'm sorry, but i just dont think that this is such a bad idea... if i was a muslim guy from Oman then i might think differently... but i'm not so its not a big deal to me

I think your last paragraph kinda sums up where I think you're coming from on this.

Collin · July 2008

dunkman wrote:

lets say a man was being tracked for terrorism related activities, and he gained entry into the US somehow.. wouldnt it be in their best interests to know where this guy had been, was going, what flights he was due on, had been on, his prints (sorry! ) etc etc...

So where do you draw the line, dunk?

dunkman · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

I think your last paragraph kinda sums up where I think you're coming from on this.

well all i'm saying is that the procedures they put in place will be 'used' more on specific target groups... and history kinda shows that past terrorists incidents have, in the vast majority, been carried out by Middle Eastern men who follow Islam.

it's a situation thats been created for the US.. not by them.

Going to the US?

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