Going to the US?

Heineken Helen

Don't make the decision lightly:

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/id_visa/esta/esta_faq.xml

ESTA application data will remain active for the period of time that the ESTA authorization is valid, which is generally two years, or until the traveler’s passport expires, whichever comes first. DHS will then maintain this information for an additional year after which it will be archived for twelve years to allow retrieval of the information for law enforcement, national security, and investigatory purposes.

Information may be shared with appropriate federal, state, local, tribal, and foreign governmental agencies or multilateral governmental organizations responsible for investigating or prosecuting the violations of, or for enforcing or implementing, a statute, rule, regulation, order or license, or where DHS believes information would assist enforcement of civil or criminal laws. Additionally, information may be shared when DHS reasonably believes such use is to assist in anti-terrorism efforts or intelligence gathering related to national or international security or transnational crime. All sharing will remain consistent with the Privacy Act System of Records Notice, which is available on the DHS Web site.

So basically... bring your kids to Disneyworld for a week... the US government keeps their details on file for 15 years :eek: Nice! Cos I can see how a 5 year old might be a threat to national or international security or transnational crime

And... yet... somehow... I'M the paranoid one?????????

Nemo

At least they keep it and don't lose it or leave it on a train or something like our English government does :rolleyes:

That Disneyworld thing is kinda freaky though...

DeLukin

Hey, in 15 years that 5 year old will be old enough to vote Democrat. We've got to stop that kind of madness before it starts.

Besides, if hoarding personal information for national security purposes keeps the lines at Epcot down, I'm all for it.

(Speaking as an ugly American, of course).

Heineken Helen

DeLukin wrote:

Hey, in 15 years that 5 year old will be old enough to vote Democrat. We've got to stop that kind of madness before it starts.

Besides, if hoarding personal information for national security purposes keeps the lines at Epcot down, I'm all for it.

(Speaking as an ugly American, of course).

I've nothing against Americans. I love your country and want to see all of it. But your government doesn't seem to want tourists... and this is making me think LONG and hard about ever going back... much as I want to... I have to consider how much IS a holiday worth? What should I give up in order to do a road trip on route 66? :(

Heineken Helen

Nemo wrote:

At least they keep it and don't lose it or leave it on a train or something like our English government does :rolleyes:

That Disneyworld thing is kinda freaky though...

Ya think? :eek: cos it says regardless of age... I just don't know why they need that info on kids. Whatever about them wanting or needing the info... the fact that they're keeping it for 15 years (a LOT can happen in that time) and can make it available to "appropriate federal, state, local, tribal, and foreign governmental agencies or multilateral governmental organizations" :eek:

Rhinocerous Surprise

It's a good thing you didn't tell me this four months ago, or else I would have had to think about my trip to Florida. :eek: I wonder who knows what about me at this point.

DeLukin

Heineken Helen wrote:

I've nothing against Americans. I love your country and want to see all of it. But your government doesn't seem to want tourists... and this is making me think LONG and hard about ever going back... much as I want to... I have to consider how much IS a holiday worth? What should I give up in order to do a road trip on route 66? :(

You're absolutely right, I was being sarcastic. It's ridiculous. I would be very alarmed if I was in the same position as someone outside of the US thinking about a visit and it's something that I'm sure a lot of people don't even know about.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

It's a good thing you didn't tell me this four months ago, or else I would have had to think about my trip to Florida. :eek: I wonder who knows what about me at this point.

It comes into effect on the 1st January 2009.

They already have your fingerprints and eye scan though I'm guessing. They have mine too. I feel violated every time I think about it :( . All I wanted to do was go see Pearl Jam in Chicago... and now they have my prints on file even though I did nothing wrong :(

dunkman

i just asked my 6 year old daughter

"hey you cant go to america cos they'll keep your record on file for 15 years and MAY use it in the EVENT you COMMIT and INTERNATIONAL CRIME!!!"

she said


"fuck off dad and book the holiday... i couldnt give a shit"


ok her language is pretty awesome... but I dont think she cares about her records being kept if it means going on the rides... and nor do i.

Heineken Helen

DeLukin wrote:

You're absolutely right, I was being sarcastic. It's ridiculous. I would be very alarmed if I was in the same position as someone outside of the US thinking about a visit and it's something that I'm sure a lot of people don't even know about.

well this is only cos I was thinking about visas today and thought I'd check a few different sites to see what the qualifications were these days, just as a matter of interest (we were discussing them over the weekend) and that was a new thing that I think was only posted yesterday :eek:

It's really not fair. Everyone knows about the fingerprint thing and they WILL know about this if they travel to the us cos they'll have to fill out the form. But it's really not fair. If I'm to REALLY follow my beliefs, it looks like I've paid my last visit to the US :( it's sad!

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

ok her language is pretty awesome... but I dont think she cares about her records being kept if it means going on the rides... and nor do i.

Obviously she's not old enough to make a decision... and this is one that I don't think I agree with parents being able to make for their children... they shouldn't have to.

Like I said dunk... and I'M the one that's paranoid? When you're the one who thinks it's ok that they take whatever information they need on your 6 year old. Without saying you don't care... defend them! Tell me why it's ok or try and explain the rational behind it please... cos I don't believe there IS any!

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

and now they have my prints on file even though I did nothing wrong :(

and in the event you maybe do do something wrong then they'll be able to match your fingerprints and catch you quicker.

i cant understand what the fuss is about.... you moan if the police dont catch criminals then moan if they put things into place to try and catch them?

all school janitors must go through the Disclosure Process now... this after the Soham murders a while back... are there rights being violated?? i for one couldnt give a fuck if they are... they are working with kids...

loony lefties are all for human rights and stuff... wait till there house is broken into and then here them cry on TV about how the police dont have a national DNA/fingerprint database... of course they dont... you didnt want one?!?

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

If I'm to REALLY follow my beliefs, it looks like I've paid my last visit to the US :( it's sad!

308 million americans just cheered.

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

and in the event you maybe do do something wrong then they'll be able to match your fingerprints and catch you quicker.

i cant understand what the fuss is about.... you moan if the police dont catch criminals then moan if they put things into place to try and catch them?

all school janitors must go through the Disclosure Process now... this after the Soham murders a while back... are there rights being violated?? i for one couldnt give a fuck if they are... they are working with kids...

loony lefties are all for human rights and stuff... wait till there house is broken into and then here them cry on TV about how the police dont have a national DNA/fingerprint database... of course they dont... you didnt want one?!?

When do you hear me crying about not having a national fingerprint/dna (don't get me started on DNA... what the fuck?) database? So you think we're all guilty til proven innocent? The vast vast vast majority of people will never do anything illegal... and yet we must give up quite a lot of information that is UNIQUE to us in case we MAY do something wrong in the future... to GOVERNMENTS????????? I would say that's MORE than an invasion of privacy. That's one step towards 1984. If I said 10 years ago that we'd have to give fingerprints to governments to travel... you woulda called me a loony leftie then :mad: thanks to people like you who simply don't give a fuck, we'll ALL have our rights taken away little by little.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

It comes into effect on the 1st January 2009.

They already have your fingerprints and eye scan though I'm guessing. They have mine too. I feel violated every time I think about it :( . All I wanted to do was go see Pearl Jam in Chicago... and now they have my prints on file even though I did nothing wrong :(

I should read links next time. On the plus side, any more visits to America would probably be made by the end of this year, so it shouldn't affect me... yet.

cincybearcat

Heineken Helen wrote:

I've nothing against Americans. I love your country and want to see all of it. But your government doesn't seem to want tourists... and this is making me think LONG and hard about ever going back... much as I want to... I have to consider how much IS a holiday worth? What should I give up in order to do a road trip on route 66? :(

Yeah, but with the weak dollar, a trip to the US is cheap!

Heineken Helen

cincybearcat wrote:

Yeah, but with the weak dollar, a trip to the US is cheap!

Depending on which values you're measuring the cost

see... they lure us in with their cheap money! :eek:

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I should read links next time. On the plus side, any more visits to America would probably be made by the end of this year, so it shouldn't affect me... yet.

See... this is one small step... scary enough but still not entirely monstrous enough to make people like dunk see what's going on. BUT imagine what measures will be in place in 5, 10, 15, 20 years time :eek: :(

cincybearcat

Heineken Helen wrote:

Depending on which values you're measuring the cost

see... they lure us in with their cheap money! :eek:

$ is the only cost...your freedom is an illusion...they already have all they need on you, so don't sweat the new stuff...

mammasan

I think this is a little excessive. I mean do we really need to finger print children just in case they decide to commit a crime later in life. In the grand scheme of things it's not a huge invasion of privacy but it's the fact that little by little they are taking a nibble here and a nibble there and before you know it they have bitten off a large portion of our personal freedoms.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

See... this is one small step... scary enough but still not entirely monstrous enough to make people like dunk see what's going on. BUT imagine what measures will be in place in 5, 10, 15, 20 years time :eek: :(

The sad part is, no one's gonna tell them where to stick it... people won't let a little thing like invasion of privacy stop them from seeing the good ol' USA.

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

When do you hear me crying about not having a national fingerprint/dna (don't get me started on DNA... what the fuck?) database? So you think we're all guilty til proven innocent? The vast vast vast majority of people will never do anything illegal... and yet we must give up quite a lot of information that is UNIQUE to us in case we MAY do something wrong in the future... to GOVERNMENTS????????? I would say that's MORE than an invasion of privacy. That's one step towards 1984. If I said 10 years ago that we'd have to give fingerprints to governments to travel... you woulda called me a loony leftie then :mad: thanks to people like you who simply don't give a fuck, we'll ALL have our rights taken away little by little.

the vast majority probably do illegal stuff all the time.. they just dont get caught

i.e. I turned my phone on in the car the other day... :eek:

look.. i understand what you are saying but my incredulity lies in the sheer fear you have of what the government is doing with this 'data' they have on you? what do you think they do with it??

it sits in a fookin computer and one day if you commit a huge crime then the Irish government may make a request to the US government to ascertain if you were there, when, where, etc...

but other than that, they do fuck all with it.

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

See... this is one small step... scary enough but still not entirely monstrous enough to make people like dunk see what's going on. BUT imagine what measures will be in place in 5, 10, 15, 20 years time :eek: :(

i do see whats going on... i just dont see the need to be scared of it.

i DONT CARE if the US government has my fingerprints... i simply dont give a shit... i dont plan to rob, rape, maim, torture, kill, embezzle, defraud anyone or anything when i'm in the US... i want to go on Splash Mountain... if i do commit a big crime when i'm out there then i deserve to be caught....

if i go to america and kill a nun then they dont have my fingerprints on their database... i'm harder to find....

i really dont see the need for the fear i'm afraid. (do you see what i did there... fear and afraid in the same sentence.. eh? did you see it? eh? thanks )

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

the vast majority probably do illegal stuff all the time.. they just dont get caught

i.e. I turned my phone on in the car the other day... :eek:

look.. i understand what you are saying but my incredulity lies in the sheer fear you have of what the government is doing with this 'data' they have on you? what do you think they do with it??

it sits in a fookin computer and one day if you commit a huge crime then the Irish government may make a request to the US government to ascertain if you were there, when, where, etc...

but other than that, they do fuck all with it.

THAT doesn't matter... They CAN do WHATEVER the fuck they want with it! Therein lies my problem dunk... what they CAN do with it does not necessarily equate what they WILL do with it... but I just feel like a little bit of self protection here and there ain't necessarily a bad thing!

Heineken Helen

mammasan wrote:

I think this is a little excessive. I mean do we really need to finger print children just in case they decide to commit a crime later in life. In the grand scheme of things it's not a huge invasion of privacy but it's the fact that little by little they are taking a nibble here and a nibble there and before you know it they have bitten off a large portion of our personal freedoms.

It's just weird how the process never reverses. A tiny bit here and there, not enough for the majority of people to notice... but they never give back.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

The sad part is, no one's gonna tell them where to stick it... people won't let a little thing like invasion of privacy stop them from seeing the good ol' USA.

I certainly didn't last year. I DID think about it but my need to see pearl jam was greater than my need to keep myself to myself. Will I regret that down the line? Who knows... but hopefully not.

dunkman

mammasan wrote:

I think this is a little excessive. I mean do we really need to finger print children just in case they decide to commit a crime later in life. In the grand scheme of things it's not a huge invasion of privacy but it's the fact that little by little they are taking a nibble here and a nibble there and before you know it they have bitten off a large portion of our personal freedoms.

i just searched that entire link Helen gave... i cant see anywhere where it says about fingerprints, DNA samples, blood, saliva, hair, etc....

its an electronic system which will allow the user access to America... all that will be stored will be your date of entry, departure and any flights.

all of which are stored on a travel agents system anyway.

why the fear?

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

I certainly didn't last year. I DID think about it but my need to see pearl jam was greater than my need to keep myself to myself. Will I regret that down the line? Who knows... but hopefully not.

I think the only reasonable solution is this: if they insist on taking all this information about every tourist... every tourist should go on a crime spree while they're over there. Make it all worthwhile.

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

i do see whats going on... i just dont see the need to be scared of it.

i DONT CARE if the US government has my fingerprints... i simply dont give a shit... i dont plan to rob, rape, maim, torture, kill, embezzle, defraud anyone or anything when i'm in the US... i want to go on Splash Mountain... if i do commit a big crime when i'm out there then i deserve to be caught....

if i go to america and kill a nun then they dont have my fingerprints on their database... i'm harder to find....

i really dont see the need for the fear i'm afraid. (do you see what i did there... fear and afraid in the same sentence.. eh? did you see it? eh? thanks )

dunk... people are set up for things they didn't do quite often... but the lack of dna/fingerprints sometimes means they get away with that which they didn't do. People in governments are JUST as likely IMO to commit a crime than the 'lesser people'. They just have access to information which could set someone up PROPERLY. Anything on computer has the potential of being hacked into also.

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

They CAN do WHATEVER the fuck they want with it! Therein lies my problem dunk... what they CAN do with it does not necessarily equate what they WILL do with it...

like what? thats what I'm asking... what do you think they'll do with it?

frame you for international espionage? blame the death of a russian diplomat on you? clone you? make fake passports for CIA agents in Libya?

maybe in the movies...

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

i just searched that entire link Helen gave... i cant see anywhere where it says about fingerprints, DNA samples, blood, saliva, hair, etc....

its an electronic system which will allow the user access to America... all that will be stored will be your date of entry, departure and any flights.

all of which are stored on a travel agents system anyway.

why the fear?

:rolleyes: You didn't read it at ALL:

The traveler must provide (in English) biographical data including name, birth date, and passport information, as well as travel information such as the flight number and destination address in the United States. The traveler will also be required to answer VWP eligibility questions regarding communicable diseases, arrests and convictions for certain crimes, and past history of visa revocation or deportation, among others.

Among others is pretty vague, huh? That's a bit more than flight information don't ya think? We mention fingerprints cos that's ALREADY in place... we already have to give prints to get into the states. YOU mentioned DNA, I told you not to get me started... but I'd imagine you think that's a good thing anyway.

READ the info before laughing it off in the future.