Going to the US?

dunkman · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

When do you hear me crying about not having a national fingerprint/dna (don't get me started on DNA... what the fuck?) database? So you think we're all guilty til proven innocent? The vast vast vast majority of people will never do anything illegal... and yet we must give up quite a lot of information that is UNIQUE to us in case we MAY do something wrong in the future... to GOVERNMENTS????????? I would say that's MORE than an invasion of privacy. That's one step towards 1984. If I said 10 years ago that we'd have to give fingerprints to governments to travel... you woulda called me a loony leftie then :mad: thanks to people like you who simply don't give a fuck, we'll ALL have our rights taken away little by little.

the vast majority probably do illegal stuff all the time.. they just dont get caught

i.e. I turned my phone on in the car the other day... :eek:

look.. i understand what you are saying but my incredulity lies in the sheer fear you have of what the government is doing with this 'data' they have on you? what do you think they do with it??

it sits in a fookin computer and one day if you commit a huge crime then the Irish government may make a request to the US government to ascertain if you were there, when, where, etc...

but other than that, they do fuck all with it.

dunkman · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

See... this is one small step... scary enough but still not entirely monstrous enough to make people like dunk see what's going on. BUT imagine what measures will be in place in 5, 10, 15, 20 years time :eek: :(

i do see whats going on... i just dont see the need to be scared of it.

i DONT CARE if the US government has my fingerprints... i simply dont give a shit... i dont plan to rob, rape, maim, torture, kill, embezzle, defraud anyone or anything when i'm in the US... i want to go on Splash Mountain... if i do commit a big crime when i'm out there then i deserve to be caught....

if i go to america and kill a nun then they dont have my fingerprints on their database... i'm harder to find....

i really dont see the need for the fear i'm afraid. (do you see what i did there... fear and afraid in the same sentence.. eh? did you see it? eh? thanks

)

Heineken Helen · July 2008

dunkman wrote:

the vast majority probably do illegal stuff all the time.. they just dont get caught

i.e. I turned my phone on in the car the other day... :eek:

look.. i understand what you are saying but my incredulity lies in the sheer fear you have of what the government is doing with this 'data' they have on you? what do you think they do with it??

it sits in a fookin computer and one day if you commit a huge crime then the Irish government may make a request to the US government to ascertain if you were there, when, where, etc...

but other than that, they do fuck all with it.

THAT doesn't matter... They CAN do WHATEVER the fuck they want with it! Therein lies my problem dunk... what they CAN do with it does not necessarily equate what they WILL do with it... but I just feel like a little bit of self protection here and there ain't necessarily a bad thing!

Heineken Helen · July 2008

mammasan wrote:

I think this is a little excessive. I mean do we really need to finger print children just in case they decide to commit a crime later in life. In the grand scheme of things it's not a huge invasion of privacy but it's the fact that little by little they are taking a nibble here and a nibble there and before you know it they have bitten off a large portion of our personal freedoms.

It's just weird how the process never reverses. A tiny bit here and there, not enough for the majority of people to notice... but they never give back.

Heineken Helen · July 2008

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

The sad part is, no one's gonna tell them where to stick it... people won't let a little thing like invasion of privacy stop them from seeing the good ol' USA.

I certainly didn't last year. I DID think about it but my need to see pearl jam was greater than my need to keep myself to myself. Will I regret that down the line? Who knows... but hopefully not.

dunkman · July 2008

mammasan wrote:

I think this is a little excessive. I mean do we really need to finger print children just in case they decide to commit a crime later in life. In the grand scheme of things it's not a huge invasion of privacy but it's the fact that little by little they are taking a nibble here and a nibble there and before you know it they have bitten off a large portion of our personal freedoms.

i just searched that entire link Helen gave... i cant see anywhere where it says about fingerprints, DNA samples, blood, saliva, hair, etc....

its an electronic system which will allow the user access to America... all that will be stored will be your date of entry, departure and any flights.

all of which are stored on a travel agents system anyway.

why the fear?

Rhinocerous Surprise · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

I certainly didn't last year. I DID think about it but my need to see pearl jam was greater than my need to keep myself to myself. Will I regret that down the line? Who knows... but hopefully not.

I think the only reasonable solution is this: if they insist on taking all this information about every tourist... every tourist should go on a crime spree while they're over there. Make it all worthwhile.

Heineken Helen · July 2008

dunkman wrote:

i do see whats going on... i just dont see the need to be scared of it.

i DONT CARE if the US government has my fingerprints... i simply dont give a shit... i dont plan to rob, rape, maim, torture, kill, embezzle, defraud anyone or anything when i'm in the US... i want to go on Splash Mountain... if i do commit a big crime when i'm out there then i deserve to be caught....

if i go to america and kill a nun then they dont have my fingerprints on their database... i'm harder to find....

i really dont see the need for the fear i'm afraid. (do you see what i did there... fear and afraid in the same sentence.. eh? did you see it? eh? thanks )

dunk... people are set up for things they didn't do quite often... but the lack of dna/fingerprints sometimes means they get away with that which they didn't do. People in governments are JUST as likely IMO to commit a crime than the 'lesser people'. They just have access to information which could set someone up PROPERLY. Anything on computer has the potential of being hacked into also.

dunkman · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

They CAN do WHATEVER the fuck they want with it! Therein lies my problem dunk... what they CAN do with it does not necessarily equate what they WILL do with it...

like what? thats what I'm asking... what do you think they'll do with it?

frame you for international espionage? blame the death of a russian diplomat on you? clone you? make fake passports for CIA agents in Libya?

maybe in the movies...

Heineken Helen · July 2008

dunkman wrote:

i just searched that entire link Helen gave... i cant see anywhere where it says about fingerprints, DNA samples, blood, saliva, hair, etc....

its an electronic system which will allow the user access to America... all that will be stored will be your date of entry, departure and any flights.

all of which are stored on a travel agents system anyway.

why the fear?

:rolleyes: You didn't read it at ALL:

The traveler must provide (in English) biographical data including name, birth date, and passport information, as well as travel information such as the flight number and destination address in the United States. The traveler will also be required to answer VWP eligibility questions regarding communicable diseases, arrests and convictions for certain crimes, and past history of visa revocation or deportation, among others.

Among others is pretty vague, huh? That's a bit more than flight information don't ya think? We mention fingerprints cos that's ALREADY in place... we already have to give prints to get into the states. YOU mentioned DNA, I told you not to get me started... but I'd imagine you think that's a good thing anyway.

READ the info before laughing it off in the future.

chime · July 2008

One of the main problems I have with the fingerprint/eyescan is why should I have to give to a foreign government something which they cannot demand of their own citizens and that my government cannot demand of me

EDIT: just read Hells post above. Other than the 'among others' isn't everything else on the visa waiver form you fill in already? ... been a few years since I visited the US

Heineken Helen · July 2008

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I think the only reasonable solution is this: if they insist on taking all this information about every tourist... every tourist should go on a crime spree while they're over there. Make it all worthwhile.

Or we should at least think about doing it in the future don't ya think

Heineken Helen · July 2008

dunkman wrote:

like what? thats what I'm asking... what do you think they'll do with it?

frame you for international espionage? blame the death of a russian diplomat on you? clone you? make fake passports for CIA agents in Libya?

maybe in the movies...

Hmmm... cos with the possible exception of cloning... I'm sure the rest has NEVER happened

The possibilities of what they could do with this information are ENDLESS dunk. And none of them seem very good really :cool: If I give specific examples you'll just call me a leftie loony!

Heineken Helen · July 2008

Chime wrote:

One of the main problems I have with the fingerprint/eyescan is why should I have to give to a foreign government something which they cannot demand of their own citizens and that my government cannot demand of me

EDIT: just read Hells post above. Other than the 'among others' isn't everything else already on the visa waiver form you fill in already? ... been a few years since I visited the US

Yes... but now they will keep it for 15 years... and allow everyone down to local governments and foreign governments (including your own, who don't have the right to ask you for it themselves). Also they can now contact everyone down to your local priest for information on you BEFORE you travel

AND they're taking the information on kids.

dunkman · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

:rolleyes: You didn't read it at ALL:

Among others is pretty vague, huh? That's a bit more than flight information don't ya think? We mention fingerprints cos that's ALREADY in place... we already have to give prints to get into the states. YOU mentioned DNA, I told you not to get me started... but I'd imagine you think that's a good thing anyway.

READ the info before laughing it off in the future.

i did read it all... 'among others' will not include the extraction of DNA

The traveler must provide (in English) biographical data including name, birth date, and passport information, as well as travel information such as the flight number and destination address in the United States. The traveler will also be required to answer VWP eligibility questions regarding communicable diseases, arrests and convictions for certain crimes, and past history of visa revocation or deportation, among others.

the 'among others' is directly related to the answering of QUESTIONS... it in no way says the removal of DNA and in relation to my reply of Mammasan's post it also doesnt say that a 5 year old child has her fingerprints taken.. the among others is just that... they may ask you OTHER QUESTIONS!!

Electronic System for Travel Authorization... its an electronic system you're talking about here... fingerprints are not yet taken electronically...

"Once ESTA is mandatory, all nationals or citizens of VWP countries who plan to travel to the United States for temporary business or pleasure under the VWP will be required to receive an electronic travel authorization through ESTA prior to boarding a U.S.-bound airplane or vessel. "

this is an electronic travel document that you fill in PRIOR to travelling... not something you fingerprint for at the airport.

READ things first.

dunkman · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

Hmmm... cos with the possible exception of cloning... I'm sure the rest has NEVER happened

The possibilities of what they could do with this information are ENDLESS dunk. And none of them seem very good really :cool: If I give specific examples you'll just call me a leftie loony!

for the 3rd time... what do YOU think they will DO with YOUR information?

mammasan · July 2008

dunkman wrote:

i just searched that entire link Helen gave... i cant see anywhere where it says about fingerprints, DNA samples, blood, saliva, hair, etc....

its an electronic system which will allow the user access to America... all that will be stored will be your date of entry, departure and any flights.

all of which are stored on a travel agents system anyway.

why the fear?

If that is the case then no there really is nothing to fear at all and as I mentioned even if they did finger print it is not a huge deal by itself but our government does have the nasty tendency of pushing the envelope when it comes to infringement on civil liberties and privacy. It's the whole slippery slope scenerio. Once you allow them to take an inch they will end up taking a mile.

Heineken Helen · July 2008

dunkman wrote:

the 'among others' is directly related to the answering of QUESTIONS... it in no way says the removal of DNA and in relation to my reply of Mammasan's post it also doesnt say that a 5 year old child has her fingerprints taken..

DUNK... a 5 year old ALREADY has her fingerprints taken to go to the states... don't you know this? I gave MY print last year to go to Chicago.

YOU were the one who brought up DNA... not me!

Heineken Helen · July 2008

dunkman wrote:

for the 3rd time... what do YOU think they will DO with YOUR information?

Much as I appreciate your constant efforts to make fun of me and my leftiness :rolleyes: ... you can just fuck right off if you want me to answer that

because where there are endless possibilities and where a specific answer indicates mental issues... in this case an answer just ain't worth it

Heineken Helen · July 2008

mammasan wrote:

If that is the case then no there really is nothing to fear at all and as I mentioned even if they did finger print it is not a huge deal by itself but our government does have the nasty tendency of pushing the envelope when it comes to infringement on civil liberties and privacy. It's the whole slippery slope scenerio. Once you allow them to take an inch they will end up taking a mile.

Last year when I went to the states and when everyone else travels to the states these days... they take your fingerprint AND scan your eyes. I don't see why they could POSSIBLY want any more once they have that

and dunk or anyone else has failed to come up with a good reason... apart from possible future crimes people MAY commit

Going to the US?

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