Suicide

Jeanie · July 2007

yosi wrote:

It kind of goes both ways. I don't think anyone who would be hurt by the person's death, wants them to live with pain. However, by committing suicide, they are causing pain and suffering in other people.

So then doesn't it get down to degrees of pain?

What if the pain of the person who commits suicide is greater than that of the people left behind?

soulsinging · July 2007

yosi wrote:

It kind of goes both ways. I don't think anyone who would be hurt by the person's death, wants them to live with pain. However, by committing suicide, they are causing pain and suffering in other people.

or perhaps they are saving them the extended pain and frustration of watching them suffer and being unable to help alleviate that suffering. instead, they opt for suicide, which is like tearing a bandaid off quick as opposed to a slow and agonizing pull.

jlew24asu · July 2007

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

It should be their choice, definitely. People that want to die are going to find a way to do it anyways. How many people do you think stop and say 'Well, it is illegal, so I guess I better not.' It's a ridiculous law.

hey looky here I agree with bookster. 'Well, it is illegal, so I guess I better not.' I know right? how dumb.

norm · July 2007

CorporateWhore wrote:

The vast majority of people who wish to or have committed suicide are mentally ill. They don't need to have another (literally!) nail in the coffin by making it legal.

The legality of it won't stop the mentally ill from committing suicide. They do it because they have a problem and making suicide legal does not help them with their problem, it only hurts them.

why do feel the need to control other people's lives?

Collin · July 2007

soulsinging wrote:

or perhaps they are saving them the extended pain and frustration of watching them suffer and being unable to help alleviate that suffering. instead, they opt for suicide, which is like tearing a bandaid off quick as opposed to a slow and agonizing pull.

Exactly, I saw cancer eat away both my grandparents (who practically raised me), they were in much pain, not just physically but also mentally, knowing that they were dying, that they wouldn't get to see their grandchildren's children, weddings etc.

I'm not saying they should have commited suicide, that should be their choice. But this whole experience was extremely painful for everyone in my family and knowing they suffered for so long did not ease the pain when they died at all. So perhaps a swift death would have been better...

chopitdown · July 2007

soulsinging wrote:

how selfish is it for you to force someone to keep living in unbearable pain just so that you don't have to be hurt by their death?

there are more reasons for suicide than "just" terminal disease. But to my original point. How is deciding to take ones own life NOT considered selfish? What reason would you give to commit suicide. It usually like, so I won't be in pain, so I won't have to take responsibility (debt, crime etc...) (edit: so I won't subject you to watching me suffer). Keeping emotion out of it, it IS a selfish act by that person and the ultimate selfish act b/c it cannot be undone. But I also know why someone would feel that is their only way out.

Jeanie · July 2007

cutback wrote:

why do feel the need to control other people's lives?

God's soldier.

norm · July 2007

chopitdown wrote:

there are more reasons for suicide than "just" terminal disease. But to my original point. How is deciding to take ones own life NOT considered selfish? What reason would you give to commit suicide. It usually like, so I won't be in pain, so I won't have to take responsibility (debt, crime etc...). Keeping emotion out of it, it IS a selfish act by that person and the ultimate selfish act b/c it cannot be undone. But I also know why someone would feel that is their only way out.

but isn't it just as selfish to force that person to live when they don't want to because you would be sad?

soulsinging · July 2007

chopitdown wrote:

there are more reasons for suicide than "just" terminal disease. But to my original point. How is deciding to take ones own life NOT considered selfish? What reason would you give to commit suicide. It usually like, so I won't be in pain, so I won't have to take responsibility (debt, crime etc...) (edit: so I won't subject you to watching me suffer). Keeping emotion out of it, it IS a selfish act by that person and the ultimate selfish act b/c it cannot be undone. But I also know why someone would feel that is their only way out.

this does not answer the question. i never said suicide wasn't selfish, im saying condemning it is just as if not more selfish. im well aware there are myriad reasons for it, but the fact remains those left behind care only for their own pain at the loss.

chopitdown · July 2007

cutback wrote:

but isn't it just as selfish to force that person to live when they don't want to because you would be sad?

to some degree yes, I'm actually for withdrawing care on someone who is suffering AND (the and cant be big enough) is in the very end stage of disease. There is no need to prolong death and death isn't something to be feared, but in my opinion it is not something to be hastened either. But people commit suicide every day and their death won't affect me one bit and it is still selfish for that person.

Collin · July 2007

chopitdown wrote:

to some degree yes, I'm actually for withdrawing care on someone who is suffering AND (the and cant be big enough) is in the very end stage of disease. There is no need to prolong death and death isn't something to be feared, but in my opinion it is not something to be hastened either. But people commit suicide every day and their death won't affect me one bit and it is still selfish for that person.

Can you give a non-selfish argument against suicide?

Jeanie · July 2007

soulsinging wrote:

......but the fact remains those left behind care only for their own pain at the loss.

I don't think that's correct ss.

Lot of things to think about when some commits suicide, lot of feelings, and to say that people are only absorbed in their own pain after the fact really is not correct.

chopitdown · July 2007

soulsinging wrote:

this does not answer the question. i never said suicide wasn't selfish, im saying condemning it is just as if not more selfish. im well aware there are myriad reasons for it, but the fact remains those left behind care only for their own pain at the loss.

well, the way you came across implied that it was almost noble (the whole, I don't want you to see me suffer, so I will take that burden from you). I agree that society is selfish and people dont' want others to kill themselves for selfish reasons, but here is where we have our fundamental difference in re: to personal liberty. So we can agree it is selfish on both parts, but wont agree that people shouldn't do it, or at least is a quasi-legitimate option.

chopitdown · July 2007

Collin wrote:

Can you give a non-selfish argument against suicide?

nope, I also realize that every decision a person makes in life in some way can be considered selfish. But more of the other decisions can be changed and the gravity of the selfishness, i dare say is MUCH less.

Jeanie · July 2007

chopitdown wrote:

to some degree yes, I'm actually for withdrawing care on someone who is suffering AND (the and cant be big enough) is in the very end stage of disease. There is no need to prolong death and death isn't something to be feared, but in my opinion it is not something to be hastened either. But people commit suicide every day and their death won't affect me one bit and it is still selfish for that person.

Have you experienced a friend or loved one take their own life?

Perhaps you could reserve your comments about selfishness to their cases only?

You know jack shit about my friends or loved ones that have killed themselves or had their death hastened by medical intervention and quite frankly I find it highly offensive of you to call them selfish. I can't imagine what other people who have experiences similar circumstances must make of your choice of words.

chopitdown · July 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Have you experienced a friend or loved one take their own life?

Perhaps you could reserve your comments about selfishness to their cases only?

You know jack shit about my friends or loved ones that have killed themselves or had their death hastened by medical intervention and quite frankly I find it highly offensive of you to call them selfish. I can't imagine what other people who have experiences similar circumstances must make of your choice of words.

i watched my grandmother die from bone / breast cancer (she battled it for 7 or 8 years). I watched my aunt die from gallbladder cancer. My friends mother killed herself. I can understand why each of those people probably would have welcomed suicide or relief. So I am not just making htings up out of thin air and trying to piss people off, there's no need for that, which is why every post that I've talked about it being selfish i've also made it very clear that i can see why, without a doubt, someone would want to do that. I made it a point to say that b/c i realize what I'm saying, so i'm sorry that I offended you and esp with this topic it is a very touchy topic and it's bound to spark serious debate and bring in personal stories etc... Please read my entire post and take both points away from the posts. I'm not some guy who thinks that the end of life is an easy decision; i don't assume that you take it lightly and flippantly, i don't want you to think that i do either. We just happen to have different views.

Jeanie · July 2007

chopitdown wrote:

i watched my grandmother die from bone / breast cancer (she battled it for 7 or 8 years). I watched my aunt die from gallbladder cancer. My friends mother killed herself. I can understand why each of those people probably would have welcomed suicide or relief. So I am not just making htings up out of thin air and trying to piss people off, there's no need for that, which is why every post that I've talked about it being selfish i've also made it very clear that i can see why, without a doubt, someone would want to do that. I made it a point to say that b/c i realize what I'm saying, so i'm sorry that I offended you and esp with this topic it is a very touchy topic and it's bound to spark serious debate and bring in personal stories etc... Please read my entire post and take both points away from the posts. I'm not some guy who thinks that the end of life is an easy decision; i don't assume that you take it lightly and flippantly, i don't want you to think that i do either. We just happen to have different views.

Fair enough. But I will admit to being sad for you, that selfish is the conclusion you have come to. By that rationale wouldn't anybody who died then be selfish?

RolandTD20Kdrummer · July 2007

godpt3 wrote:

suicide is painless... it brings on many changes

Ask are you even close to being serious?

The entire circumstance is all about pain and suffering...and for all parties involved.

Collin · July 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Ask are you even close to being serious?

The entire circumstance is all about pain and suffering...and for all parties involved.

I think he or she is a M*A*S*H fan.

RolandTD20Kdrummer · July 2007

Anyone who thinks they can control what other people do with their lives in private is a complete and utter fool. I cannot emphasize that sentiment enough.

That's reality. Accept it or not, but it's a proven fact and it will never ever change, nor will anyone ever, ever be able to change it.

Suicide

Comments

Categories