to some degree yes, I'm actually for withdrawing care on someone who is suffering AND (the and cant be big enough) is in the very end stage of disease. There is no need to prolong death and death isn't something to be feared, but in my opinion it is not something to be hastened either. But people commit suicide every day and their death won't affect me one bit and it is still selfish for that person.
Can you give a non-selfish argument against suicide?
......but the fact remains those left behind care only for their own pain at the loss.
I don't think that's correct ss.
Lot of things to think about when some commits suicide, lot of feelings, and to say that people are only absorbed in their own pain after the fact really is not correct.
this does not answer the question. i never said suicide wasn't selfish, im saying condemning it is just as if not more selfish. im well aware there are myriad reasons for it, but the fact remains those left behind care only for their own pain at the loss.
well, the way you came across implied that it was almost noble (the whole, I don't want you to see me suffer, so I will take that burden from you). I agree that society is selfish and people dont' want others to kill themselves for selfish reasons, but here is where we have our fundamental difference in re: to personal liberty. So we can agree it is selfish on both parts, but wont agree that people shouldn't do it, or at least is a quasi-legitimate option.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
Can you give a non-selfish argument against suicide?
nope, I also realize that every decision a person makes in life in some way can be considered selfish. But more of the other decisions can be changed and the gravity of the selfishness, i dare say is MUCH less.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
to some degree yes, I'm actually for withdrawing care on someone who is suffering AND (the and cant be big enough) is in the very end stage of disease. There is no need to prolong death and death isn't something to be feared, but in my opinion it is not something to be hastened either. But people commit suicide every day and their death won't affect me one bit and it is still selfish for that person.
Have you experienced a friend or loved one take their own life?
Perhaps you could reserve your comments about selfishness to their cases only?
You know jack shit about my friends or loved ones that have killed themselves or had their death hastened by medical intervention and quite frankly I find it highly offensive of you to call them selfish. I can't imagine what other people who have experiences similar circumstances must make of your choice of words.
Have you experienced a friend or loved one take their own life?
Perhaps you could reserve your comments about selfishness to their cases only?
You know jack shit about my friends or loved ones that have killed themselves or had their death hastened by medical intervention and quite frankly I find it highly offensive of you to call them selfish. I can't imagine what other people who have experiences similar circumstances must make of your choice of words.
i watched my grandmother die from bone / breast cancer (she battled it for 7 or 8 years). I watched my aunt die from gallbladder cancer. My friends mother killed herself. I can understand why each of those people probably would have welcomed suicide or relief. So I am not just making htings up out of thin air and trying to piss people off, there's no need for that, which is why every post that I've talked about it being selfish i've also made it very clear that i can see why, without a doubt, someone would want to do that. I made it a point to say that b/c i realize what I'm saying, so i'm sorry that I offended you and esp with this topic it is a very touchy topic and it's bound to spark serious debate and bring in personal stories etc... Please read my entire post and take both points away from the posts. I'm not some guy who thinks that the end of life is an easy decision; i don't assume that you take it lightly and flippantly, i don't want you to think that i do either. We just happen to have different views.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
i watched my grandmother die from bone / breast cancer (she battled it for 7 or 8 years). I watched my aunt die from gallbladder cancer. My friends mother killed herself. I can understand why each of those people probably would have welcomed suicide or relief. So I am not just making htings up out of thin air and trying to piss people off, there's no need for that, which is why every post that I've talked about it being selfish i've also made it very clear that i can see why, without a doubt, someone would want to do that. I made it a point to say that b/c i realize what I'm saying, so i'm sorry that I offended you and esp with this topic it is a very touchy topic and it's bound to spark serious debate and bring in personal stories etc... Please read my entire post and take both points away from the posts. I'm not some guy who thinks that the end of life is an easy decision; i don't assume that you take it lightly and flippantly, i don't want you to think that i do either. We just happen to have different views.
Fair enough. But I will admit to being sad for you, that selfish is the conclusion you have come to. By that rationale wouldn't anybody who died then be selfish?
The entire circumstance is all about pain and suffering...and for all parties involved.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Anyone who thinks they can control what other people do with their lives in private is a complete and utter fool. I cannot emphasize that sentiment enough.
That's reality. Accept it or not, but it's a proven fact and it will never ever change, nor will anyone ever, ever be able to change it.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
That's a mash quote? I've watched every episode practically twice and never pulled that from the show... must have been that episode I missed.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
i watched my grandmother die from bone / breast cancer (she battled it for 7 or 8 years). I watched my aunt die from gallbladder cancer. My friends mother killed herself. I can understand why each of those people probably would have welcomed suicide or relief. So I am not just making htings up out of thin air and trying to piss people off, there's no need for that, which is why every post that I've talked about it being selfish i've also made it very clear that i can see why, without a doubt, someone would want to do that. I made it a point to say that b/c i realize what I'm saying, so i'm sorry that I offended you and esp with this topic it is a very touchy topic and it's bound to spark serious debate and bring in personal stories etc... Please read my entire post and take both points away from the posts. I'm not some guy who thinks that the end of life is an easy decision; i don't assume that you take it lightly and flippantly, i don't want you to think that i do either. We just happen to have different views.
I don't understand. You say you understand why someone in great pain would want a way out, why they would want to relieve the pain.
Yet a solution, a way to relieve that pain is the ultimate selfish act?
When you hurt yourself and you want relief, is that selfish?
Fair enough. But I will admit to being sad for you, that selfish is the conclusion you have come to. By that rationale wouldn't anybody who died then be selfish?
please don't be sad for me, saying it's selfish is the easiest conclusion to state knowing that it's selfish with an asterisk and a laundry list of qualifiers. My last rebuttal, if you will to anybody who dies being selfish, is if it's from natural causes it's not selfish, if you're murdered or killed it's not selfish...i guess you could say that since the brain quit getting oxygen at some point the cells got selfish and quit working, but I think that's kind of a stretch
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
It's in the song at the beginning, if I'm not mistaken.
Never thought to look up the title to the theme song probably because it was all instrumental.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
I don't understand. You say you understand why someone in great pain would want a way out, why they would want to relieve the pain.
Yet a solution, a way to relieve that pain is the ultimate selfish act?
When you hurt yourself and you want relief, is that selfish?
yes, wanting relief from pain is selfish b/c you are putting your needs or desires above anyone elses. Selfishness is not always bad. If people weren't selfish on some level they wouldn't' work, eat, etc... The magnitude of the selfishness changes. In essence wanting to live could be construed as selfish, so there is nothing inherently wrong with selfishness. But if I'm selfish to my girlfriend I can change and become selfless but the reason i think suicide is the ultimate selfish act is b/c it leaves no room for change or for changing that one action.
Take the people in the great depression who committed suicide over money (we're leaving healthcare out of it) was it not a selfish act to end that "pain"? They thought there was no other way out, and instead of dealing with it they took a different way out so they didn't have to deal with it. It is much easier in my mind and from my view to justify suicide for despair of end stage diseases than it is for other things.
But there is also a component that is underlying as well, something that shapes my view is that there is something greater than ones self. But that is a different topic and will require much more time than I'm able to spend right now.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
please don't be sad for me, saying it's selfish is the easiest conclusion to state knowing that it's selfish with an asterisk and a laundry list of qualifiers. My last rebuttal, if you will to anybody who dies being selfish, is if it's from natural causes it's not selfish, if you're murdered or killed it's not selfish...i guess you could say that since the brain quit getting oxygen at some point the cells got selfish and quit working, but I think that's kind of a stretch
I just think it's sad because clearly you have emotions that a person has died and selfish just seems to be a hurt and angry response to that death. Of all the conclusions you could come to about the death of another, why is not sadness, grief, loss and love and thankfulness that the person meant anything to you at all the overriding emotions? Why not celebrate who they were and what they meant to you and all the things you learned from them living? Death just is. It will happen to all of us. To be hurt and angry at a person for their death seems an exercise in futility to me. A person's life is their own, just as their death is their own. And if one suffers pain at the suicide or medically assisted death of another, then how is this different from suffering the pain of them simply dying? I'm curious chopit, because it's not the first time that I've heard the term "selfish" levelled at someone who commits suicide or seeks to end their suffering through medical assistance. and I really don't understand it. Labelling someone for how they die, well it changes nothing. Sorry. Just how I see it.
yes, wanting relief from pain is selfish b/c you are putting your needs or desires above anyone elses. Selfishness is not always bad. If people weren't selfish on some level they wouldn't' work, eat, etc... The magnitude of the selfishness changes. In essence wanting to live could be construed as selfish, so there is nothing inherently wrong with selfishness. But if I'm selfish to my girlfriend I can change and become selfless but the reason i think suicide is the ultimate selfish act is b/c it leaves no room for change or for changing that one action.
Take the people in the great depression who committed suicide over money (we're leaving healthcare out of it) was it not a selfish act to end that "pain"? They thought there was no other way out, and instead of dealing with it they took a different way out so they didn't have to deal with it. It is much easier in my mind and from my view to justify suicide for despair of end stage diseases than it is for other things.
But there is also a component that is underlying as well, something that shapes my view is that there is something greater than ones self. But that is a different topic and will require much more time than I'm able to spend right now.
Ok what about if you want to die because you know you are a burden to your loved ones?
^ youtube link posted up above roland. With lyrics.
Thanks Jeanie. I hope you are well.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
I have never even seen an episode of mash. I have no idea why I know it's the theme song.
Remind me never to play trivial pursuit against you for money
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
I see a big difference between people killing themselves for reasons that can be treated (most mental illnesses) and things that can't (end stage cancer, Alzheimer's, etc.) I can't say I see the point in making it illegal, what's the sense in that? But definitely, an otherwise healthy person who wants to kill themselves because of a mental illness should be stopped and given treatment to alleviate the mental illness.
Sane and rational people who wants to end their lives because they are in tremendous pain that can't be treated, or because they know that they're about to lose control of their minds ... that's an entirely different matter and those people should be able to get assistance in ending their lives if they need it.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Comments
Can you give a non-selfish argument against suicide?
naděje umírá poslední
I don't think that's correct ss.
Lot of things to think about when some commits suicide, lot of feelings, and to say that people are only absorbed in their own pain after the fact really is not correct.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
well, the way you came across implied that it was almost noble (the whole, I don't want you to see me suffer, so I will take that burden from you). I agree that society is selfish and people dont' want others to kill themselves for selfish reasons, but here is where we have our fundamental difference in re: to personal liberty. So we can agree it is selfish on both parts, but wont agree that people shouldn't do it, or at least is a quasi-legitimate option.
nope, I also realize that every decision a person makes in life in some way can be considered selfish. But more of the other decisions can be changed and the gravity of the selfishness, i dare say is MUCH less.
Have you experienced a friend or loved one take their own life?
Perhaps you could reserve your comments about selfishness to their cases only?
You know jack shit about my friends or loved ones that have killed themselves or had their death hastened by medical intervention and quite frankly I find it highly offensive of you to call them selfish. I can't imagine what other people who have experiences similar circumstances must make of your choice of words.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
i watched my grandmother die from bone / breast cancer (she battled it for 7 or 8 years). I watched my aunt die from gallbladder cancer. My friends mother killed herself. I can understand why each of those people probably would have welcomed suicide or relief. So I am not just making htings up out of thin air and trying to piss people off, there's no need for that, which is why every post that I've talked about it being selfish i've also made it very clear that i can see why, without a doubt, someone would want to do that. I made it a point to say that b/c i realize what I'm saying, so i'm sorry that I offended you and esp with this topic it is a very touchy topic and it's bound to spark serious debate and bring in personal stories etc... Please read my entire post and take both points away from the posts. I'm not some guy who thinks that the end of life is an easy decision; i don't assume that you take it lightly and flippantly, i don't want you to think that i do either. We just happen to have different views.
Fair enough. But I will admit to being sad for you, that selfish is the conclusion you have come to. By that rationale wouldn't anybody who died then be selfish?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Ask are you even close to being serious?
The entire circumstance is all about pain and suffering...and for all parties involved.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
I think he or she is a M*A*S*H fan.
naděje umírá poslední
That's reality. Accept it or not, but it's a proven fact and it will never ever change, nor will anyone ever, ever be able to change it.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
That's a mash quote? I've watched every episode practically twice and never pulled that from the show... must have been that episode I missed.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
I thought it was the theme song?
naděje umírá poslední
It's in the song at the beginning, if I'm not mistaken.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
jinx
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
That's correct Collin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICiFnQrHOrk
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I don't understand. You say you understand why someone in great pain would want a way out, why they would want to relieve the pain.
Yet a solution, a way to relieve that pain is the ultimate selfish act?
When you hurt yourself and you want relief, is that selfish?
naděje umírá poslední
I have never even seen an episode of mash. I have no idea why I know it's the theme song.
naděje umírá poslední
please don't be sad for me, saying it's selfish is the easiest conclusion to state knowing that it's selfish with an asterisk and a laundry list of qualifiers. My last rebuttal, if you will to anybody who dies being selfish, is if it's from natural causes it's not selfish, if you're murdered or killed it's not selfish...i guess you could say that since the brain quit getting oxygen at some point the cells got selfish and quit working, but I think that's kind of a stretch
Never thought to look up the title to the theme song probably because it was all instrumental.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
it was sung in the movie
Through early morning fog I see
Visions of the things to be
The things that are withheld for me
I realize and I can see
That suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please
The game of life is hard to play
I'm gonna lose it anyway
The losing card I'll someday lay
So this is all I have to say
Suicide is painless (Suicide)
It brings on many changes (Changes)
And I can take or leave it if I please
The sword of time will pierce our skins
It doesn't hurt when it begins
But as it works its way on in
The pain grows stronger watch it grin
Suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please
A brave man once requested me
To answer questions that are key
Is it to be or not to be
And I replied Oh why ask me
Suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please
And you can do the same thing if you please
That would be the one I missed then...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
yes, wanting relief from pain is selfish b/c you are putting your needs or desires above anyone elses. Selfishness is not always bad. If people weren't selfish on some level they wouldn't' work, eat, etc... The magnitude of the selfishness changes. In essence wanting to live could be construed as selfish, so there is nothing inherently wrong with selfishness. But if I'm selfish to my girlfriend I can change and become selfless but the reason i think suicide is the ultimate selfish act is b/c it leaves no room for change or for changing that one action.
Take the people in the great depression who committed suicide over money (we're leaving healthcare out of it) was it not a selfish act to end that "pain"? They thought there was no other way out, and instead of dealing with it they took a different way out so they didn't have to deal with it. It is much easier in my mind and from my view to justify suicide for despair of end stage diseases than it is for other things.
But there is also a component that is underlying as well, something that shapes my view is that there is something greater than ones self. But that is a different topic and will require much more time than I'm able to spend right now.
I just think it's sad because clearly you have emotions that a person has died and selfish just seems to be a hurt and angry response to that death. Of all the conclusions you could come to about the death of another, why is not sadness, grief, loss and love and thankfulness that the person meant anything to you at all the overriding emotions? Why not celebrate who they were and what they meant to you and all the things you learned from them living? Death just is. It will happen to all of us. To be hurt and angry at a person for their death seems an exercise in futility to me. A person's life is their own, just as their death is their own. And if one suffers pain at the suicide or medically assisted death of another, then how is this different from suffering the pain of them simply dying? I'm curious chopit, because it's not the first time that I've heard the term "selfish" levelled at someone who commits suicide or seeks to end their suffering through medical assistance. and I really don't understand it. Labelling someone for how they die, well it changes nothing. Sorry. Just how I see it.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
^ youtube link posted up above roland. With lyrics.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Ok what about if you want to die because you know you are a burden to your loved ones?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Thanks Jeanie. I hope you are well.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Read Albert Camus' 'The myth of Sisyphus'. It's a philosophical essay on the subject of suicide. Very interesting.
Remind me never to play trivial pursuit against you for money
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Sane and rational people who wants to end their lives because they are in tremendous pain that can't be treated, or because they know that they're about to lose control of their minds ... that's an entirely different matter and those people should be able to get assistance in ending their lives if they need it.
You're welcome.
ditto.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift