who is idealizing suicide? and clearly you've never been aywhere near suicide cos you dont fuck with people in that state of mind. they are down enough as it is, and calling them names like "coward" "weak" and "stupid" is the act of an asshole.
you're an asshole dude... speaking of which... refer to the thread "men suck" you have the same mindset i do
it's not like i'm gonna point the finger at their face and call them idiots... although, that is my opinion about them...
by the way... i work with suicidal patients all the time... i've found that when i'm straight up and honest with a patient they respond more positively rather than a person who tries to kiss their ass... i think you need to change your mindset of suicidal patients completely.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
you're an asshole dude... speaking of which... refer to the thread "men suck" you have the same mindset i do
it's not like i'm gonna point the finger at their face and call them idiots... although, that is my opinion about them...
by the way... i work with suicidal patients all the time... i've found that when i'm straight up and honest with a patient they respond more positively rather than a person who tries to kiss their ass... i think you need to change your mindset of suicidal patients completely.
i was one once chief. and if you'd have said shit like that to me, id have taken you down with me.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Of course it matters. Because this thread was originally started to comment on suicide from this perspective:
ironically, i was responding to all of your comments while at work with the "mentally ill" and "chemical dependent" patients... :rolleyes:
What i meant earlier was if a person kills themselves, I guess, there's just no knowing if they were mentally ill or just plain suicidal. The original question that started this thread was, "should we let them?" My response is... we can't force them but we should try to encourage them otherwise. Chemical imbalance or not, suicidal people need help. Wouldn't we all agree?
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
ironically, i was responding to all of your comments while at work with the "mentally ill" and "chemical dependent" patients... :rolleyes:
What i meant earlier was if a person kills themselves, I guess, there's just no knowing if they were mentally ill or just plain suicidal. The original question that started this thread was, "should we let them?" My response is... we can't force them but we should try to encourage them otherwise. Chemical imbalance or not, suicidal people need help. Wouldn't we all agree?
I figured this was the case. It's very hard when you're in the thick of it on a day to day basis. It must get very exhausting and frustrating.
Yes, I would agree that regardless of the cause we do need to try to find ways to help the suicidal.
ironically, i was responding to all of your comments while at work with the "mentally ill" and "chemical dependent" patients... :rolleyes:
What i meant earlier was if a person kills themselves, I guess, there's just no knowing if they were mentally ill or just plain suicidal. The original question that started this thread was, "should we let them?" My response is... we can't force them but we should try to encourage them otherwise. Chemical imbalance or not, suicidal people need help. Wouldn't we all agree?
yes, we would. i only disagree with your contention that the ones who try or succeed should be condemned, dismissed, belittled, or insulted for it.
nothing in life is so bad that it requires you to kill yourself.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
ironically, i was responding to all of your comments while at work with the "mentally ill" and "chemical dependent" patients... :rolleyes:
What i meant earlier was if a person kills themselves, I guess, there's just no knowing if they were mentally ill or just plain suicidal. The original question that started this thread was, "should we let them?" My response is... we can't force them but we should try to encourage them otherwise. Chemical imbalance or not, suicidal people need help. Wouldn't we all agree?
Yes, they should need help. But then if a person isn't mentally ill they shouldn't be labelled so. And certainly not labelled stupid, weak or coward.
Also if the doctors you work with label suicide as a mental illness, I feel sorry for each and every patient there. Perhaps you should consider a career change as well.
not noble, but potentially more considerate of the other person than someone denying a suffering person a way out is.
potentially yes, but the "other person" is often affected by the suicide as well left with questions, doubt, and a lifetime to ponder the what ifs (rather that is in the case of unexpected suicide). So while the person may be trying to be considerate it can lead to long term unforeseen consequences.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
Really? How many times have you said someone with a tooth ache is selfish for seeing a dentist?
Selfishness has a negative connotation and people tend to use that word when they disapprove or disagree with someone's actions...
... but it seems you label almost every action selfish, so I can't really disagree with you.
But if all actions are indeed selfish, why even consider it when discussing anything?
But I agree, suicide is a permanent choice and the fact that it cannot be reversed should be the focus in your argument, not the selfishness of the act.
selfishness does have a negative connotation to it and in this issue I'd say the negative connotation is far more applicable than saying, I want my tooth to stop hurting. One of the hard things about this topic is the myriad reasons for people committing suicide. It's not like suicide exists in a vacuum and is only applicable to medical suffering. So when I'm discussing it I'm trying to look at it as a whole rather than just one piece of the puzzle. If you think about teen suicide, how many of those are due to medical suffering (physical suffering of a terminal disease)? To lump that in with someone who is older and experiencing end stage cancer that isn't treatable isn't fair to the discussion, but that's what we have to do.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
painless? For who? The people they leave behind? I don't think so. I've gotten into this debate with others on here before but in my opinion suicide is a very selfish act and only hurts the people left behind.
Fear of one's mortality when someone close dies is what hurts. Not being able to be with the loved one (and not believing that maybe one day we will) is what is painful. We don't want to lose loved ones and therefore hang on to whatever little drop of life is left because WE don't want to hurt... that is selfish.
I don't believe that suicide is an easy way out, whether this 'suicide' is non-intervention, euthanasia, or more conventional suicide. When you know you are going to die, you also hurt knowing you are leaving loved ones, that you will not see a daughter/son, grand-daughter/grandson grow.... Those thoughts will be with the one going... But maybe the pain they are going through making them want to die is stronger.
"If someone chooses to end their life, should we allow them to?"
This question was asked in another thread.
There are a few things wrong with suicide:
1. The people that really loved you when you go. Leave a nice detailed note the exonerates anybody of your choice.
2. The fact that you may wake up and still be alive. That always sucks, unless you pussy out and are only seeking attention. Then you are just an attention whore, and chose the wrong way to get attention. But you will always be a good story among family and friends.
3. Suicide should be an option for people who are suffering. It would be more then a "suicide" as it would be discussed with close family and once a decision had been made would come to fruition. Which would not really be suicide as it would be a death by choice. If you don't call pulling the plug on somebody suicide, somebody suffering should have a choice to live or die.
selfishness does have a negative connotation to it and in this issue I'd say the negative connotation is far more applicable than saying, I want my tooth to stop hurting.
Perhaps. I don't like the connotation of selfishness because it paints the person who commits suicide as a selfish bastard, at least that's how it sounds to me. But suicide is never easy. To think a person who commits suicide doesn't care or think about anyone else besides himself (that's the connotation selfish has) isn't very realistic. They do think about ways to end their misery but that doesn't mean they don't think about their loved ones or don't care about their loved ones.
One of the hard things about this topic is the myriad reasons for people committing suicide. It's not like suicide exists in a vacuum and is only applicable to medical suffering. So when I'm discussing it I'm trying to look at it as a whole rather than just one piece of the puzzle.
True, but I still don't think people who commit suicide are necessarily selfish. You're right that the act itself might be selfish, but so is every other action. And then we're just talking about the act and not the person. Then again, you never said the people are selfish.
Like I said before I don't see the point in focusing on the selfishness of the act, it's more important to focus on the person.
If you think about teen suicide, how many of those are due to medical suffering (physical suffering of a terminal disease)? To lump that in with someone who is older and experiencing end stage cancer that isn't treatable isn't fair to the discussion, but that's what we have to do.
I agree, that's why I say we should focus on the person and not the act itself.
There are a few things wrong with suicide:
1. The people that really loved you when you go. Leave a nice detailed note the exonerates anybody of your choice.
2. The fact that you may wake up and still be alive. That always sucks, unless you pussy out and are only seeking attention. Then you are just an attention whore, and chose the wrong way to get attention. But you will always be a good story among family and friends.
3. Suicide should be an option for people who are suffering. It would be more then a "suicide" as it would be discussed with close family and once a decision had been made would come to fruition. Which would not really be suicide as it would be a death by choice. If you don't call pulling the plug on somebody suicide, somebody suffering should have a choice to live or die.
If I ever were to commit suicide it would be because of suffering and I would discuss it with the people closest to me. If they really love me they would respect my choice or at least understand it. I would call this suicide unless of course euthanasia is legal.
If people attempt "suicide" because they want attention, that's a different problem. If they really wanted to kill themselves, they'd be dead.
There has been much discussion in this thread about pain and its effect on the quality of life.
Has anyone considered the role th DEA and Justice Dept play in this? Our current policy of prosecuting doctors who will aggressively treat pain has maken it very difficult for people with serious pain to obtain the quantity of drugs required to maintain their quality of life.
We need to have the DEA stop practicing medicine.
painless? For who? The people they leave behind? I don't think so. I've gotten into this debate with others on here before but in my opinion suicide is a very selfish act and only hurts the people left behind.
It would be absurd to put people who attempt suicide in jail though. I can't think of any valid reasoning behind that one.
thinking its the people that are left behind that are selfish ones not the person that's committing suicide.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
yes, we would. i only disagree with your contention that the ones who try or succeed should be condemned, dismissed, belittled, or insulted for it.
not my intentions to dismiss or condemn... neither to insult... ok, maybe just a little... but that's not really my "policy"
i've just seen so many suicidal patients that for the most part are "blinded" by their own desires to rid of their own life... so their families take them to the facility, then at the facility they are difficult, complicated and hard to work with. i can't imagine what situations their families go through at home. if their suicide is caused by a mental illness i understand... mdd, schizoaffective d/o, mania... that's understandable. but if that's not the case, then what is? i'll be willing to work with the person wanting to suicide, but just so long as they are willing. can't work against their will.
that's my attitude though... "i'm here to help, if not... fuck it."
here in texas it's not illegal to try and commit suicide.... but what the law can do... or the judge... they can write a court-order to get the patient to go for a mental health treatment. in other states, the only reason why it's illegal is because it costs too much... not necessarily just cause it's "morally" wrong.
i don't know if these patients suffer either from a serious mental illness, or simply just want to end their lives. it's hard to say... and really there's a lot of debate on that. but i guess the law can only do so much in trying to help them out and well people like me, the social workers and the doctors all contribute for the purpose trying to change one person's life at a time.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
Yes, they should need help. But then if a person isn't mentally ill they shouldn't be labelled so. And certainly not labelled stupid, weak or coward.
Also if the doctors you work with label suicide as a mental illness, I feel sorry for each and every patient there. Perhaps you should consider a career change as well.
well, really, if a person goes to our hospital because they are suicidal that's already considering them "ill". there's no way out of that. otherwise, they wouldn't be "patients"... i don't know. i guess i see your point. but really suicide is sometimes labeled by a kind of chemical imbalance... as i've stated, major depressive disorder, schizoaffective disorder, bipolar.... all these things can contribute to a person being suicidal.
but as for a career change... i'm up for that... i want to get into film.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
Comments
it's not like i'm gonna point the finger at their face and call them idiots... although, that is my opinion about them...
by the way... i work with suicidal patients all the time... i've found that when i'm straight up and honest with a patient they respond more positively rather than a person who tries to kiss their ass... i think you need to change your mindset of suicidal patients completely.
i was one once chief. and if you'd have said shit like that to me, id have taken you down with me.
just don't go through the same shit again... or else i'll smack you
and it'll be the last thing you ever do, but at least you'd get to face that fear you referenced earlier.
and it's actually "referred" not referenced....
edit: no, actually, you're right :( it is referenced
Referenced is the correct word.
-Bill Hicks
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Who's pete?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
What i meant earlier was if a person kills themselves, I guess, there's just no knowing if they were mentally ill or just plain suicidal. The original question that started this thread was, "should we let them?" My response is... we can't force them but we should try to encourage them otherwise. Chemical imbalance or not, suicidal people need help. Wouldn't we all agree?
I figured this was the case.
Yes, I would agree that regardless of the cause we do need to try to find ways to help the suicidal.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
yes, we would. i only disagree with your contention that the ones who try or succeed should be condemned, dismissed, belittled, or insulted for it.
Yes, they should need help. But then if a person isn't mentally ill they shouldn't be labelled so. And certainly not labelled stupid, weak or coward.
Also if the doctors you work with label suicide as a mental illness, I feel sorry for each and every patient there. Perhaps you should consider a career change as well.
naděje umírá poslední
I was gonna suggest this as well. I'm currently reading it and I must say Camus makes some excellent points. Definitely an interesting read.
potentially yes, but the "other person" is often affected by the suicide as well left with questions, doubt, and a lifetime to ponder the what ifs (rather that is in the case of unexpected suicide). So while the person may be trying to be considerate it can lead to long term unforeseen consequences.
selfishness does have a negative connotation to it and in this issue I'd say the negative connotation is far more applicable than saying, I want my tooth to stop hurting. One of the hard things about this topic is the myriad reasons for people committing suicide. It's not like suicide exists in a vacuum and is only applicable to medical suffering. So when I'm discussing it I'm trying to look at it as a whole rather than just one piece of the puzzle. If you think about teen suicide, how many of those are due to medical suffering (physical suffering of a terminal disease)? To lump that in with someone who is older and experiencing end stage cancer that isn't treatable isn't fair to the discussion, but that's what we have to do.
I don't believe that suicide is an easy way out, whether this 'suicide' is non-intervention, euthanasia, or more conventional suicide. When you know you are going to die, you also hurt knowing you are leaving loved ones, that you will not see a daughter/son, grand-daughter/grandson grow.... Those thoughts will be with the one going... But maybe the pain they are going through making them want to die is stronger.
Yeah. It's a pretty amazing book. I think he wrote it in his early 20's.
There are a few things wrong with suicide:
1. The people that really loved you when you go. Leave a nice detailed note the exonerates anybody of your choice.
2. The fact that you may wake up and still be alive.
3. Suicide should be an option for people who are suffering. It would be more then a "suicide" as it would be discussed with close family and once a decision had been made would come to fruition. Which would not really be suicide as it would be a death by choice. If you don't call pulling the plug on somebody suicide, somebody suffering should have a choice to live or die.
Perhaps. I don't like the connotation of selfishness because it paints the person who commits suicide as a selfish bastard, at least that's how it sounds to me. But suicide is never easy. To think a person who commits suicide doesn't care or think about anyone else besides himself (that's the connotation selfish has) isn't very realistic. They do think about ways to end their misery but that doesn't mean they don't think about their loved ones or don't care about their loved ones.
True, but I still don't think people who commit suicide are necessarily selfish. You're right that the act itself might be selfish, but so is every other action. And then we're just talking about the act and not the person. Then again, you never said the people are selfish.
Like I said before I don't see the point in focusing on the selfishness of the act, it's more important to focus on the person.
I agree, that's why I say we should focus on the person and not the act itself.
naděje umírá poslední
If I ever were to commit suicide it would be because of suffering and I would discuss it with the people closest to me. If they really love me they would respect my choice or at least understand it. I would call this suicide unless of course euthanasia is legal.
If people attempt "suicide" because they want attention, that's a different problem. If they really wanted to kill themselves, they'd be dead.
naděje umírá poslední
Has anyone considered the role th DEA and Justice Dept play in this? Our current policy of prosecuting doctors who will aggressively treat pain has maken it very difficult for people with serious pain to obtain the quantity of drugs required to maintain their quality of life.
We need to have the DEA stop practicing medicine.
http://www.reason.com/news/show/121438.html
http://www.november.org/thewall/cases/paey-r/paey-r.html
thinking its the people that are left behind that are selfish ones not the person that's committing suicide.
well stop jigging around with his stuff then
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
naděje umírá poslední
i've just seen so many suicidal patients that for the most part are "blinded" by their own desires to rid of their own life... so their families take them to the facility, then at the facility they are difficult, complicated and hard to work with. i can't imagine what situations their families go through at home. if their suicide is caused by a mental illness i understand... mdd, schizoaffective d/o, mania... that's understandable. but if that's not the case, then what is? i'll be willing to work with the person wanting to suicide, but just so long as they are willing. can't work against their will.
that's my attitude though... "i'm here to help, if not... fuck it."
here in texas it's not illegal to try and commit suicide.... but what the law can do... or the judge... they can write a court-order to get the patient to go for a mental health treatment. in other states, the only reason why it's illegal is because it costs too much... not necessarily just cause it's "morally" wrong.
i don't know if these patients suffer either from a serious mental illness, or simply just want to end their lives. it's hard to say... and really there's a lot of debate on that. but i guess the law can only do so much in trying to help them out and well people like me, the social workers and the doctors all contribute for the purpose trying to change one person's life at a time.
but as for a career change... i'm up for that... i want to get into film.