Gun rampage in Nebraska shopping mall.

Cosmo · December 2007

Jeanie wrote:

I'm not the one that's been banging on for pages in this thread arguing away and completely forgetting that 9 people lost their lives going Christmas shopping. Where did I say that it's a good thing for a person inexperienced in handling guns to be racing around a shopping mall? All I said was if it was YOU that was there and you were being shot at I doubt VERY MUCH that you'd be wanting to put someone through rigorous IQ testing before you'd allow them to save you. If someone was shooting at me to kill me all I'd want to do is LIVE and I couldn't give a rats arse if it was a security guard on minimum wage with a low IQ that saved me or a bloody rocket scientist. I'd just want to live. I'd bet any money that the people that died in Nebraska wish that someone, ANYONE had saved them.

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Do you know how silly you sound? And I love all this... "If you were shot this... and if you were shot that..." bullshit. Like ANYONE could have prevented that nut from firing on those people. The only way to prevent it... make the mall as difficult to get into as the Green Zone in Baghdad.
so, guess what? We don't have armed guards at our Malls. It would be ridiculous to have armed guards at our malls. we have had shootings at our schools... we should have armed guards at our schools.. we have had shootings at McDonalds... we should have armed guards at our McDonalds.
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What YOU don't get... more guns in the hands of inexperienced people is MORE DANGEROUS.
What America need to do is accept guns in the hands of nuts are out there. We don't want to do anything about the guns... we don't want to do anything about the nuts.

Jeanie · December 2007

Cosmo wrote:

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Note to self: Austrailia... not a good place for children with special needs.. BUT, Great place to open 24/7 child labor sweat shop.
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Funny.. I always thought austrailia was a nice place with pleasant people. Learn something new every day, i suppose.

DOCS our Department of Child services has had a spate of incidents recently involving the deaths of children in their care or children that have died as a result of their lack of intervention.
Currently there are calls for a Royal Commission into the Department and I suspect we'll be having it shortly.

As to 24/7 child labor sweat shops, I doubt with the new Labor government's pledge to reverse the Industrial Relations laws of the outgoing Liberal government, that Australia would be a good place to open a sweat shop at this time. There will be far too much scrutiny going on.

Jeanie · December 2007

soulsinging wrote:

undoubtedly. but his point is, arming mall security is not the way to have saved these people. mall security is a shit paying job and the people doing it are not particularly qualified or trained. instead of one psycho once every 10 years pulling a stunt like this, you'd have dozens of shootings in malls all over the country becos mall security carrying guns fucked up and thought the guy pulling out his wallet was trying to rob the jewelry store.

So we'll sacrifice the 9 every ten years??? Is that what you're saying??
Instead of training mall security and setting benchmarks for performance. It's only 9 every 10 years so best we just leave it as it is now?

Coz the only other likely scenario I can see to stop it happening, if you're not going to train mall security guards, is to completely disarm the whole country, get everyone that needs psychiatric help the treatment they need. Destroy every gun ever made or exported into your country. Shut down the NRA, all the gun manufacturers, and complete re educate your population.

Hmmm....which one of those options sounds more feasible?

Cosmo · December 2007

onelongsong wrote:

i can give you a list of people working the system. i've got these neighbours that take in abused kids as foster parents. gread deed right? they use the kids as slave labour but they get $2400/month PER BLOODY CHILD. they don't work at all. recently they sent a girl back and traded her for 2 brothers. the brothers can stay in the same room and they needed to increase their income. these children get nothing from them. 1 new outfit for school. last year i spent more for the gifts i gave those children than they did. i later found out that after the neighbourhood christmas; they returned the kids presents. except the ones for their own daughter. she got a phone and a laptop. and 2 months ago their daughter got a brand new pick up truck for her 15th birthday. there's no law here so people don't worry about drivers licenses or things like that.
these are the kinds of things i see.

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Add: didn't you say you practiced Family Law?
Isn't there something you can do other than sending in photographs and stories to Child Protective Services and accepting "We can't find many families willing to accept children with special needs... so, we farm them out to abusive adults who trade them in as their work loade requires." as a response... and responding, "Okay.. that's good enough for me."?
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Tell you what.. send me all of that evidence... the photographs and documentations... the names of the kids and their abusers and I'll fucking do something about it.
There may not be good families in your state, but over here... we have thousands of families wiling to provide for these kids. If we can get kids out of abusive situations in other countries... i'm sure we can get those kids out of your do-nothing state.
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P.S. Get the name of that son of a bitch at your State Services and I'll see that he gets the recognition he deserves.

Collin · December 2007

Cosmo wrote:

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Add: didn't you say you practiced Family Law?
Isn't there something you can do other than sending in photographs and stories to Child Protective Services and accepting "We can't find many families willing to accept children with special needs... so, we farm them out to abusive adults who trade them in as their work loade requires." as a response... and responding, "Okay.. that's good enough for me."?
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Tell you what.. send me all of that evidence... the photographs and documentations... the names of the kids and their abusers and I'll fucking do something about it.
There may not be good families in your state, but over here... we have thousands of families wiling to provide for these kids. If we can get kids out of abusive situations in other countries... i'm sure we can get those kids out of your do-nothing state.

Weird, isn't it? They'd kill for their neighbours, no questions asked...

Jeanie · December 2007

Cosmo wrote:

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Do you know how silly you sound? And I love all this... "If you were shot this... and if you were shot that..." bullshit. Like ANYONE could have prevented that nut from firing on those people. The only way to prevent it... make the mall as difficult to get into as the Green Zone in Baghdad.
so, guess what? We don't have armed guards at our Malls. It would be ridiculous to have armed guards at our malls. we have had shootings at our schools... we should have armed guards at our schools.. we have had shootings at McDonalds... we should have armed guards at our McDonalds.
...
What YOU don't get... more guns in the hands of inexperienced people is MORE DANGEROUS.
What America need to do is accept guns in the hands of nuts are out there. We don't want to do anything about the guns... we don't want to do anything about the nuts.

Huh??? I sound silly? haha!

Yeah, coz you're making perfect sense. :rolleyes:
You seem to think that banning and ignoring is the answer. Fact is you do have guns. SHITLOADS of them. And you do have NUTJOBS. SHITLOADS of them too. I can't see you removing ALL the guns anytime soon and I can't see you being able to track the mental health status of every one of your population in order to prevent this kind of thing happening. So even supposing you started attempting to do that now, I reckon it'll keep you busy for 100s of years. In the meantime, your nuts and criminals are gonna keep shooting people. Innocent people, dead. So while it's admirable and wonderfully considerate of you to want to stop having guns in your country, it's not going to solve the problem in the short term OR save quite a few people that probably wish they were still alive. SO wouldn't it make more sense to be prepared????? I mean it's not like you don't have experience with this kind of shit. It's happening with alarming regularity lately. So yeah, train your bloody staff to use guns. Train them to take out a threat. Train them to respond to psycho nut jobs and criminals in an efficient and effective manner. Wake up and smell reality.

Cosmo · December 2007

Jeanie wrote:

So we'll sacrifice the 9 every ten years??? Is that what you're saying??
Instead of training mall security and setting benchmarks for performance. It's only 9 every 10 years so best we just leave it as it is now?

Coz the only other likely scenario I can see to stop it happening, if you're not going to train mall security guards, is to completely disarm the whole country, get everyone that needs psychiatric help the treatment they need. Destroy every gun ever made or exported into your country. Shut down the NRA, all the gun manufacturers, and complete re educate your population.

Hmmm....which one of those options sounds more feasible?

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Definatly not your option.
Do you know how many mall there are in the United States? Hell, I can't count the number of malls within a 15 mile radius of my house, let alone the entire nation.
Your option is worst at best. We do not have enough police officers... we do not have enough National Guardsmen to do what they're supposed to do... yet, an army of well paid, trainned mall security Guards is an option?
...
Sorry, Thanx for playing. Please, guess again.

Cosmo · December 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Huh??? I sound silly? haha! Yeah, coz you're making perfect sense. :rolleyes:
You seem to think that banning and ignoring is the answer. Fact is you do have guns. SHITLOADS of them. And you do have NUTJOBS. SHITLOADS of them too. I can't see you removing ALL the guns anytime soon and I can't see you being able to track the mental health status of every one of your population in order to prevent this kind of thing happening. So even supposing you started attempting to do that now, I reckon it'll keep you busy for 100s of years. In the meantime, your nuts and criminals are gonna keep shooting people. Innocent people, dead. So while it's admirable and wonderfully considerate of you to want to stop having guns in your country, it's not going to solve the problem in the short term OR save quite a few people that probably wish they were still alive. SO wouldn't it make more sense to be prepared????? I mean it's not like you don't have experience with this kind of shit. It's happening with alarming regularity lately. So yeah, train your bloody staff to use guns. Train them to take out a threat. Train them to respond to psycho nut jobs and criminals in an efficient and effective manner. Wake up and smell reality.

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Someone's off their meds, huh.
Tell you what... maybe we should give everyone a gun that walks into a Mall... that way... in case a nutjob sneaks in... they can all protect themselves.
**Note** In case you are off your meds and cannot tell the difference... the above statement was made in jest... and not to be taken as a serious arguing point.
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Train our security guards... in which mall? All of them? And how much training does it require? and are these minimum wage employees willing to put their lives on the line for strangers?
Not gonna happen. Americans need to simply accept the fact that at these thing wil occur as long as we have this love fests with guns.

Collin · December 2007

Yeah, I don't think mall security would change a lot. Malls are huge, I mean these people want to kill as many people as possible and then die. Mall security, no matter how trained they are (even if they can shoot a book of matches from two hundred feet away), won't solve anything.

And even if security is close by, once someone starts shooting there is panic, do you really want yet another person shooting around?

Jeanie · December 2007

Cosmo wrote:

...
Definatly not your option.
Do you know how many mall there are in the United States? Hell, I can't count the number of malls within a 15 mile radius of my house, let alone the entire nation.
Your option is worst at best. We do not have enough police officers... we do not have enough National Guardsmen to do what they're supposed to do... yet, an army of well paid, trainned mall security Guards is an option?
...
Sorry, Thanx for playing. Please, guess again.

Yeah, tell that to the people that died.
But let's keep sacrificing them because they're a statistical anomaly until we work out a real solution.

soulsinging · December 2007

Jeanie wrote:

So we'll sacrifice the 9 every ten years??? Is that what you're saying??
Instead of training mall security and setting benchmarks for performance. It's only 9 every 10 years so best we just leave it as it is now?

Coz the only other likely scenario I can see to stop it happening, if you're not going to train mall security guards, is to completely disarm the whole country, get everyone that needs psychiatric help the treatment they need. Destroy every gun ever made or exported into your country. Shut down the NRA, all the gun manufacturers, and complete re educate your population.

Hmmm....which one of those options sounds more feasible?

given the bottom line, which is profit margins, the latter option is more likely than mall owners taking $ out of their own pocket to give armed guards real training and better pay in accordance with high skill sets. welcome to america... where your life is only a variable in the cost-profit equation.

it's not going to happen, the extra cost and insurance premiums, not to mention settlements when one of their poorly paid guards guns down a kid, makes it more harmful than helpful. that kid could have opened fire anywhere... movie theater, zoo, museum. how do you stop that? you don't. americans are not, as a people, willing to give up the guns. as long as that is the case, things like this are going to happen.

Cosmo · December 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Yeah, tell that to the people that died.
But let's keep sacrificing them because they're a statistical anomaly until we work out a real solution.

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Oh... there is is... dragging the victims into the fray. What would you tell them?
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Please, Don't try playing that bullshit hand on me.
You think some security guard would have saved them? Only if it happened to be a Brinks Armoured Car crew member or a cop. Even then... they could have been saved... how? Because they knew in advance when the guy was going to fire? What if they were outside or on the other side of the mall? Cops are not Superman... and Mall Security Guards are not cops.
Your solutions are as good as anyone else's... never gonna happen. Just a lot of empty ideas that can never be implemented in the real world.
Why?
(For the 5th or 6th time...) Because we will never drop this love of guns we possess.

Jeanie · December 2007

soulsinging wrote:

given the bottom line, which is profit margins, the latter option is more likely than mall owners taking $ out of their own pocket to give armed guards real training and better pay in accordance with high skill sets. welcome to america... where your life is only a variable in the cost-profit equation.

Well if that's the case, then clearly one does need to carry a gun and know how to use it in your country.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=BE9i-NxAmNE

soulsinging · December 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Well if that's the case, then clearly one does need to carry a gun and know how to use it in your country.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=BE9i-NxAmNE

i don't feel the need for one and i've never felt unsafe without one. but if you do need one to feel safe, have at it. our laws allow it.

Jeanie · December 2007

Cosmo wrote:

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Oh... there is is... dragging the victims into the fray. What would you tell them?
...
Please, Don't try playing that bullshit hand on me.
You think some security guard would have saved them? Only if it happened to be a Brinks Armoured Car crew member or a cop. Even then... they could have been saved... how? Because they knew in advance when the guy was going to fire? What if they were outside or on the other side of the mall? Cops are not Superman... and Mall Security Guards are not cops.
Your solutions are as good as anyone else's... never gonna happen. Just a lot of empty ideas that can never be implemented in the real world.
Why?
(For the 5th or 6th time...) Because we will never drop this love of guns we possess.

So if you're not gonna drop your collective love of guns, then what's the problem with people being armed and trained to take care of themselves?
Seems to me the only other option.
You won't give up guns, you won't educate the public, you won't train security guards, you won't work to lower police response times, you won't ensure the mental health of your countrymen. It's not fiscally viable to worry about it from what I can gather so that leaves every man and woman for themselves doesn't it?

I think I'll take my chances with whatever keystone cop efforts the security guard could muster then thanks. Seems at least there's a chance then I'd still be alive. Over sitting and waiting for help that never comes while nutjob takes me out and a bored American public watches on.

Jeanie · December 2007

soulsinging wrote:

i don't feel the need for one and i've never felt unsafe without one. but if you do need one to feel safe, have at it. our laws allow it.

I doubt very much I'd be any more comfortable with a gun in America than I would be here in Australia. ie: not very comfortable. I'm more than handy with a baseball bat when I've had to be. Although I find communication a handy tool to utilize in threat situations, not that it works all the time.
But I can certainly understand WHY someone would have one and know how to use it. I'm probably one of the people that will end up shot though.

soulsinging · December 2007

Jeanie wrote:

I doubt very much I'd be any more comfortable with a gun in America than I would be here in Australia. ie: not very comfortable. I'm more than handy with a baseball bat when I've had to be. Although I find communication a handy tool to utilize in threat situations, not that it works all the time.
But I can certainly understand WHY someone would have one and know how to use it. I'm probably one of the people that will end up shot though.

so it would seem. cos i rather doubt you'd have had much luck convincing that kid not to shoot. so why should everyone else have to foot your bill? you're worried about mall shootings, pay your own way, buy a gun, and train until you're comfortable with it. don't go asking every mall in the country to pay out of their pocket to cover your irrational fear of being gunned down by a psycho in a shopping mall. cos they aren't gonna do it.

Jeanie · December 2007

Cosmo wrote:

..
Someone's off their meds, huh.
Tell you what... maybe we should give everyone a gun that walks into a Mall... that way... in case a nutjob sneaks in... they can all protect themselves.
**Note** In case you are off your meds and cannot tell the difference... the above statement was made in jest... and not to be taken as a serious arguing point.
...
Train our security guards... in which mall? All of them? And how much training does it require? and are these minimum wage employees willing to put their lives on the line for strangers?
Not gonna happen. Americans need to simply accept the fact that at these thing wil occur as long as we have this love fests with guns.

You throw your hands up and expect that people should just accept the status quo and I'm off my meds?
You surely must have laws in place about workplaces and employment?
You have to have gun training in order to carry a gun as a security guard here and you have to have passed all kinds of tests to get the job too. If a pissy little non entity country like Australia can manage some kind of regulation and training with regards to security guards how come the Great White Hope hasn't managed it?

Jeanie · December 2007

Collin wrote:

Yeah, I don't think mall security would change a lot. Malls are huge, I mean these people want to kill as many people as possible and then die. Mall security, no matter how trained they are (even if they can shoot a book of matches from two hundred feet away), won't solve anything.

And even if security is close by, once someone starts shooting there is panic, do you really want yet another person shooting around?

No thought to accepting that it's a possible scenario for people shopping and educating the general public about what to do in if they find themselves in that scenario?

Jeanie · December 2007

soulsinging wrote:

so it would seem. cos i rather doubt you'd have had much luck convincing that kid not to shoot. so why should everyone else have to foot your bill? you're worried about mall shootings, pay your own way, buy a gun, and train until you're comfortable with it. don't go asking every mall in the country to pay out of their pocket to cover your irrational fear of being gunned down by a psycho in a shopping mall. cos they aren't gonna do it.

yeah, there it is again. the worshipping of the almighty dollar over human beings. sad. very sad.

Gun rampage in Nebraska shopping mall.

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