Suicide

even flow? · July 2007

Collin wrote:

What are your views on suicide?

"If someone chooses to end their life, should we allow them to?"

This question was asked in another thread.

There are a few things wrong with suicide:
1. The people that really loved you when you go. Leave a nice detailed note the exonerates anybody of your choice.

2. The fact that you may wake up and still be alive.

That always sucks, unless you pussy out and are only seeking attention. Then you are just an attention whore, and chose the wrong way to get attention. But you will always be a good story among family and friends.

3. Suicide should be an option for people who are suffering. It would be more then a "suicide" as it would be discussed with close family and once a decision had been made would come to fruition. Which would not really be suicide as it would be a death by choice. If you don't call pulling the plug on somebody suicide, somebody suffering should have a choice to live or die.

Collin · July 2007

chopitdown wrote:

selfishness does have a negative connotation to it and in this issue I'd say the negative connotation is far more applicable than saying, I want my tooth to stop hurting.

Perhaps. I don't like the connotation of selfishness because it paints the person who commits suicide as a selfish bastard, at least that's how it sounds to me. But suicide is never easy. To think a person who commits suicide doesn't care or think about anyone else besides himself (that's the connotation selfish has) isn't very realistic. They do think about ways to end their misery but that doesn't mean they don't think about their loved ones or don't care about their loved ones.

One of the hard things about this topic is the myriad reasons for people committing suicide. It's not like suicide exists in a vacuum and is only applicable to medical suffering. So when I'm discussing it I'm trying to look at it as a whole rather than just one piece of the puzzle.

True, but I still don't think people who commit suicide are necessarily selfish. You're right that the act itself might be selfish, but so is every other action. And then we're just talking about the act and not the person. Then again, you never said the people are selfish.

Like I said before I don't see the point in focusing on the selfishness of the act, it's more important to focus on the person.

If you think about teen suicide, how many of those are due to medical suffering (physical suffering of a terminal disease)? To lump that in with someone who is older and experiencing end stage cancer that isn't treatable isn't fair to the discussion, but that's what we have to do.

I agree, that's why I say we should focus on the person and not the act itself.

Collin · July 2007

even flow? wrote:

There are a few things wrong with suicide:
1. The people that really loved you when you go. Leave a nice detailed note the exonerates anybody of your choice.

2. The fact that you may wake up and still be alive. That always sucks, unless you pussy out and are only seeking attention. Then you are just an attention whore, and chose the wrong way to get attention. But you will always be a good story among family and friends.

3. Suicide should be an option for people who are suffering. It would be more then a "suicide" as it would be discussed with close family and once a decision had been made would come to fruition. Which would not really be suicide as it would be a death by choice. If you don't call pulling the plug on somebody suicide, somebody suffering should have a choice to live or die.

If I ever were to commit suicide it would be because of suffering and I would discuss it with the people closest to me. If they really love me they would respect my choice or at least understand it. I would call this suicide unless of course euthanasia is legal.

If people attempt "suicide" because they want attention, that's a different problem. If they really wanted to kill themselves, they'd be dead.

1970RR · July 2007

There has been much discussion in this thread about pain and its effect on the quality of life.
Has anyone considered the role th DEA and Justice Dept play in this? Our current policy of prosecuting doctors who will aggressively treat pain has maken it very difficult for people with serious pain to obtain the quantity of drugs required to maintain their quality of life.
We need to have the DEA stop practicing medicine.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/121438.html

http://www.november.org/thewall/cases/paey-r/paey-r.html

callen · July 2007

Staceb10 wrote:

painless? For who? The people they leave behind? I don't think so. I've gotten into this debate with others on here before but in my opinion suicide is a very selfish act and only hurts the people left behind.

It would be absurd to put people who attempt suicide in jail though. I can't think of any valid reasoning behind that one.

thinking its the people that are left behind that are selfish ones not the person that's committing suicide.

RolandTD20Kdrummer · July 2007

deadnothingbetter wrote:

i don't love pete... i'm not gay

well stop jigging around with his stuff then

RolandTD20Kdrummer · July 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Who's pete?

Collin · July 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Remind me never to play trivial pursuit against you for money

Remind me to play for money more often

deadnothingbetter · July 2007

soulsinging wrote:

yes, we would. i only disagree with your contention that the ones who try or succeed should be condemned, dismissed, belittled, or insulted for it.

not my intentions to dismiss or condemn... neither to insult... ok, maybe just a little... but that's not really my "policy"

i've just seen so many suicidal patients that for the most part are "blinded" by their own desires to rid of their own life... so their families take them to the facility, then at the facility they are difficult, complicated and hard to work with. i can't imagine what situations their families go through at home. if their suicide is caused by a mental illness i understand... mdd, schizoaffective d/o, mania... that's understandable. but if that's not the case, then what is? i'll be willing to work with the person wanting to suicide, but just so long as they are willing. can't work against their will.

that's my attitude though... "i'm here to help, if not... fuck it."

here in texas it's not illegal to try and commit suicide.... but what the law can do... or the judge... they can write a court-order to get the patient to go for a mental health treatment. in other states, the only reason why it's illegal is because it costs too much... not necessarily just cause it's "morally" wrong.

i don't know if these patients suffer either from a serious mental illness, or simply just want to end their lives. it's hard to say... and really there's a lot of debate on that. but i guess the law can only do so much in trying to help them out and well people like me, the social workers and the doctors all contribute for the purpose trying to change one person's life at a time.

deadnothingbetter · July 2007

Collin wrote:

Yes, they should need help. But then if a person isn't mentally ill they shouldn't be labelled so. And certainly not labelled stupid, weak or coward.

Also if the doctors you work with label suicide as a mental illness, I feel sorry for each and every patient there. Perhaps you should consider a career change as well.

well, really, if a person goes to our hospital because they are suicidal that's already considering them "ill". there's no way out of that. otherwise, they wouldn't be "patients"... i don't know. i guess i see your point. but really suicide is sometimes labeled by a kind of chemical imbalance... as i've stated, major depressive disorder, schizoaffective disorder, bipolar.... all these things can contribute to a person being suicidal.

but as for a career change... i'm up for that... i want to get into film.

Collin · July 2007

deadnothingbetter wrote:

not my intentions to dismiss or condemn... neither to insult... ok, maybe just a little... but that's not really my "policy"

i've just seen so many suicidal patients that for the most part are "blinded" by their own desires to rid of their own life... so their families take them to the facility, then at the facility they are difficult, complicated and hard to work with. i can't imagine what situations their families go through at home. if their suicide is caused by a mental illness i understand... mdd, schizoaffective d/o, mania... that's understandable. but if that's not the case, then what is? i'll be willing to work with the person wanting to suicide, but just so long as they are willing. can't work against their will.

If the person isn't mentally ill, he shouldn't be in a mental health hospital.

edit:

Yes, I do think help should be offered, becauss you're right a lot of times the basis of suicidal tendencies is a problem that can be solved, but when they determine the person isn't mentally ill or that the problem cannot be solved what possible reason could you give for prohibiting them from taking their own life?

deadnothingbetter · July 2007

Collin wrote:

If I ever were to commit suicide it would be because of suffering and I would discuss it with the people closest to me. If they really love me they would respect my choice or at least understand it. I would call this suicide unless of course euthanasia is legal.

If people attempt "suicide" because they want attention, that's a different problem. If they really wanted to kill themselves, they'd be dead.

my friend had girl problems so he wanted to kill himself once.

so i gave him a copy of jay-z's "99 problems"

"i got 99 problems but a bitch ain't one... if you're having girl problems i feel bad for you son. cause i got 99 problems but a bitch ain't one"

he's doing fine now.

the same with you... if you ever were to discuss your suicidal idealogies with me... i'll report it to the cops so they can write you a court-order so you can see a mental health doctor. that way you don't go do something stupid. then i'll also burn you a copy of Jay-z's "99 problems"

Collin · July 2007

deadnothingbetter wrote:

well, really, if a person goes to our hospital because they are suicidal that's already considering them "ill". there's no way out of that. otherwise, they wouldn't be "patients"... i don't know. i guess i see your point. but really suicide is sometimes labeled by a kind of chemical imbalance... as i've stated, major depressive disorder, schizoaffective disorder, bipolar.... all these things can contribute to a person being suicidal.

but as for a career change... i'm up for that... i want to get into film.

If a person comes there voluntarily, he admits there's a problem and probably wants help or needs help.

If a person is forced to go there, you might be creating a bigger problem.

deadnothingbetter · July 2007

Collin wrote:

If the person isn't mentally ill, he shouldn't be in a mental health hospital.

well, that's why they have what we call "assessments" which includes a deputy, a social worker and a doctor who altogether try and figure to the best of their professional knowledge what needs to be done in order to save the patients life.

i mean, c'mon... if that's the case then... like i said, fuck it. i ain't gonna respect that choice if the person is mentally sane. i'll tell the person wanting to kill themselves... you're gonna kill yourself anyways... so here it goes dude. you're fuckin stuuuuuuuuupid.

Collin · July 2007

deadnothingbetter wrote:

my friend had girl problems so he wanted to kill himself once.

so i gave him a copy of jay-z's "99 problems"

"i got 99 problems but a bitch ain't one... if you're having girl problems i feel bad for you son. cause i got 99 problems but a bitch ain't one"

he's doing fine now.

the same with you... if you ever were to discuss your suicidal idealogies with me... i'll report it to the cops so they can write you a court-order so you can see a mental health doctor. that way you don't go do something stupid. then i'll also burn you a copy of Jay-z's "99 problems"

So what if I have cancer and I cannot be cured and I want to have some control over my life because wasting away to the point where you can't even get out of bed and have to piss in a tube and people need to wash and feed you, isn't what I want.

Will you give me a copy of Jay z's 99 problems too.

Not all suicide happen because of trivial things.

deadnothingbetter · July 2007

Collin wrote:

If a person comes there voluntarily, he admits there's a problem and probably wants help or needs help.

If a person is forced to go there, you might be creating a bigger problem.

yeah, a court-order... but you should see how these "court-ordered" patients are. pretty out of it... looking at the walls, claiming to see their dead sister, going by another name, threatening to harm you.

Collin · July 2007

deadnothingbetter wrote:

yeah, a court-order... but you should see how these "court-ordered" patients are. pretty out of it... looking at the walls, claiming to see their dead sister, going by another name, threatening to harm you.

If there's a mental problem, there's a mental problem and they need help. If not, why force them to stay alive? I'm not saying we should encourage them, definitely not. But ultimately, it's their choice.

deadnothingbetter · July 2007

Collin wrote:

So what if I have cancer and I cannot be cured and I want to have some control over my life because wasting away to the point where you can't even get out of bed and have to piss in a tube and people need to wash and feed you, isn't what I want.

Will you give me a copy of Jay z's 99 problems too.

Not all suicide happen because of trivial things.

humor me for a second. what if that's not the case at all? what if it is for a trivial thing?

if they have cancer and want to end their life... that's a whooole other ballpark. that's euthanizing

deadnothingbetter · July 2007

Collin wrote:

If there's a mental problem, there's a mental problem and they need help. If not, why force them to stay alive? I'm not saying we should encourage them, definitely not. But ultimately, it's their choice.

yeah, definitely, it is ultimately their choice. a choice that i would probably shrug my shoulders at and think, "damn, what a wasted life"

Collin · July 2007

deadnothingbetter wrote:

humor me for a second. what if that's not the case at all? what if it is for a trivial thing?

if they have cancer and want to end their life... that's a whooole other ballpark. that's euthanizing

collin wrote:

Yes, I do think help should be offered, becauss you're right a lot of times the basis of suicidal tendencies is a problem that can be solved

Euthanasia is illegal in the States, right? To me that's also suicide. But you're right it is something different.

Suicide

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