Suicide

hippiemom

deadnothingbetter wrote:

if they have cancer and want to end their life... that's a whooole other ballpark. that's euthanizing

Euthanasia is medically-assisted suicide. If the sick person takes their own life without any assistance from anyone, it's suicide. I think these types of suicides are completely rational and have nothing to do with mental illness. I also support euthanasia, although Oregon is the only state that currently allows any form of it, and even there a doctor cannot actively participate, he or she can only provide the means and the instructions to the patients so that they can carry it out on their own.

deadnothingbetter wrote:

do you think it's ok if the law should place a court-order for a suicidal patient to get treatment?

That's consistent with our other laws regarding the mentally ill. We don't allow people who are mentally incompetent to enter into contracts, for example, or to write a will. Frequently they are under guardianship and cannot make most decisions for themselves, such as where to live or how to spend their money, without having it approved by the guardian and overseen by the court.

This is a tricky area. We'd like to think that we can cure mental illnesses, but often we can't. If an incurable schizophrenic finds his life so miserable that he would rather it end, I don't see a huge difference between that and someone with cancer or Alzheimer's who wants to end their life, and I fully support their right to do so. I certainly wouldn't want to live 60 years with severe schizophrenia.

Depression, on the other hand, usually CAN be managed, and it's typically in the best interest of the depressed person for someone to intervene and get them the proper treatment so that they can enjoy life. If someone has been in treatment for years and nothing helps them and they have a joyless existence, I don't think it's my place to tell them they have to stay.

Jeanie

hippiemom wrote:

Euthanasia is medically-assisted suicide. If the sick person takes their own life without any assistance from anyone, it's suicide. I think these types of suicides are completely rational and have nothing to do with mental illness. I also support euthanasia, although Oregon is the only state that currently allows any form of it, and even there a doctor cannot actively participate, he or she can only provide the means and the instructions to the patients so that they can carry it out on their own.


That's consistent with our other laws regarding the mentally ill. We don't allow people who are mentally incompetent to enter into contracts, for example, or to write a will. Frequently they are under guardianship and cannot make most decisions for themselves, such as where to live or how to spend their money, without having it approved by the guardian and overseen by the court.

This is a tricky area. We'd like to think that we can cure mental illnesses, but often we can't. If an incurable schizophrenic finds his life so miserable that he would rather it end, I don't see a huge difference between that and someone with cancer or Alzheimer's who wants to end their life, and I fully support their right to do so. I certainly wouldn't want to live 60 years with severe schizophrenia.

Depression, on the other hand, usually CAN be managed, and it's typically in the best interest of the depressed person for someone to intervene and get them the proper treatment so that they can enjoy life. If someone has been in treatment for years and nothing helps them and they have a joyless existence, I don't think it's my place to tell them they have to stay.

Ah! Thanks mom!
That's pretty much my view too.

deadnothingbetter

Jeanie wrote:

Yeah, that's why I said hell no and then reconsidered.
Of the people that you get in, how many of them are completely pissed off and acting out because they've been institutionalized? I'm just curious.
Coz I know that had I been sent off by court order after my little episode with the medication I'd have got out and sued the court, the institution, my doctor and the pharmaceutical company.

about 95% come on a voluntary basis.... they usually want to stay there because they have no other place to stay. family members have grown tired of them, homeless, no friends... a place like this is a good place to make friends, i guess. in other words, about 95% of them usually end up liking it and they chose to come again on a frequent basis. the 5% have neither been here before so are kinda paranoid about being "institutionalized" or are just excessively psychotic.

have in mind, the one's who are more aggressive are the one's who really should be there... not all of them are suicidal... some are homocidal. i feel there is no law to defend those kinds except to be insitutionalized against their will if they are homocidal. like mother's idealizing of having their babies heads blown off... yeah, it's that serious.

deadnothingbetter

hippiemom wrote:

Euthanasia is medically-assisted suicide. If the sick person takes their own life without any assistance from anyone, it's suicide. I think these types of suicides are completely rational and have nothing to do with mental illness. I also support euthanasia, although Oregon is the only state that currently allows any form of it, and even there a doctor cannot actively participate, he or she can only provide the means and the instructions to the patients so that they can carry it out on their own.


That's consistent with our other laws regarding the mentally ill. We don't allow people who are mentally incompetent to enter into contracts, for example, or to write a will. Frequently they are under guardianship and cannot make most decisions for themselves, such as where to live or how to spend their money, without having it approved by the guardian and overseen by the court.

This is a tricky area. We'd like to think that we can cure mental illnesses, but often we can't. If an incurable schizophrenic finds his life so miserable that he would rather it end, I don't see a huge difference between that and someone with cancer or Alzheimer's who wants to end their life, and I fully support their right to do so. I certainly wouldn't want to live 60 years with severe schizophrenia.

Depression, on the other hand, usually CAN be managed, and it's typically in the best interest of the depressed person for someone to intervene and get them the proper treatment so that they can enjoy life. If someone has been in treatment for years and nothing helps them and they have a joyless existence, I don't think it's my place to tell them they have to stay.

i wouldn't deny any of it to anybody. if someone who isn't suffering from a mental illness wants to kill themselves.... well, go right ahead. i just think their choices aren't too "great"...

you're right tho... mentally ill patients aren't always cured... that's why i don't entirely agree with my line of work. especially the medications.

Jeanie

deadnothingbetter wrote:

about 95% come on a voluntary basis.... they usually want to stay there because they have no other place to stay. family members have grown tired of them, homeless, no friends... a place like this is a good place to make friends, i guess. in other words, about 95% of them usually end up liking it and they chose to come again on a frequent basis. the 5% have neither been here before so are kinda paranoid about being "institutionalized" or are just excessively psychotic.

have in mind, the one's who are more aggressive are the one's who really should be there... not all of them are suicidal... some are homocidal. i feel there is no law to defend those kinds except to be insitutionalized against their will if they are homocidal. like mother's idealizing of having their babies heads blown off... yeah, it's that serious.

My concern with regard to them being there dead is what impact is the 5% having on the other 95%? Because it doesn't sound like an environment condusive to healthy healing if those who are able to be helped are being exposed to those who are not? And I think the other thing I'm thinking about what you are saying here and referring back to the initial, should the court order them to be committed question, is do you think that perhaps there are other agencies that should have intervened long before the process of having them put into a court ordered institutionalization situation in the first place? I mean being homeless and having family difficulties are two things that can cause severe depression and suicidal tendencies. How is it that they are able to be in this situation in the first place, before they get sent to you by the court?
Just thinking out loud I guess, but those are two things that crossed my mind just for starters.

deadnothingbetter

Jeanie wrote:

My concern with regard to them being there dead is what impact is the 5% having on the other 95%? Because it doesn't sound like an environment condusive to healthy healing if those who are able to be helped are being exposed to those who are not? And I think the other thing I'm thinking about what you are saying here and referring back to the initial, should the court order them to be committed question, is do you think that perhaps there are other agencies that should have intervened long before the process of having them put into a court ordered institutionalization situation in the first place? I mean being homeless and having family difficulties are two things that can cause severe depression and suicidal tendencies. How is it that they are able to be in this situation in the first place, before they get sent to you by the court?
Just thinking out loud I guess, but those are two things that crossed my mind just for starters.

well, you said it yourself. there's a thin line between those who are suffering from a chemical imbalance and are suicidal and those who are not. i don't think there will ever be agencies who will support someone who is suffering from a mental illness and suicidal... obviously the person who is suffering from a form of mental illness is probably not functioning at a capacity to be able to think for themselvess. therefore, these places are here to help them. not to perform some mind altering experiments on them. just to hold them from causing harm to others and themselves.

although i see what you're saying, it's really not that big of a deal cause eventually these patients end up liking these places and find themselves visiting these facilities time and again.

i personally believe that anybody who is suicidal is already suffering from a chemical imbalance. but that's just me. just think about it. depression is caused by a chemical imbalance and someone who is suicidal are probably already suffering from depression. cause i don't think that a suicidal person wants to kill themselves just cause they are happy. so in that sense i feel that anybody who is suicidal should seek professional attention... although it's true they don't always get better... but it's still worth getting help.

Jeanie

deadnothingbetter wrote:

well, you said it yourself. there's a thin line between those who are suffering from a chemical imbalance and are suicidal and those who are not. i don't think there will ever be agencies who will support someone who is suffering from a mental illness and suicidal... obviously the person who is suffering from a form of mental illness is probably not functioning at a capacity to be able to think for themselvess. therefore, these places are here to help them. not to perform some mind altering experiments on them. just to hold them from causing harm to others and themselves.

although i see what you're saying, it's really not that big of a deal cause eventually these patients end up liking these places and find themselves visiting these facilities time and again.

i personally believe that anybody who is suicidal is already suffering from a chemical imbalance. but that's just me. just think about it. depression is caused by a chemical imbalance and someone who is suicidal are probably already suffering from depression. cause i don't think that a suicidal person wants to kill themselves just cause they are happy. so in that sense i feel that anybody who is suicidal should seek professional attention... although it's true they don't always get better... but it's still worth getting help.

No no! I'm not saying that treatment facilities such as the one you are at don't have a very valuable role to play, I'm simply wondering why kids are facing things like homelessness and family problems that can lead to depression and then require them to be institutionalized. I guess I'm wondering at why the system doesn't have more stop gaps in place to help them BEFORE it gets to that point.

gue_barium

deadnothingbetter wrote:

about 95% come on a voluntary basis.... they usually want to stay there because they have no other place to stay. family members have grown tired of them, homeless, no friends... a place like this is a good place to make friends, i guess. in other words, about 95% of them usually end up liking it and they chose to come again on a frequent basis. the 5% have neither been here before so are kinda paranoid about being "institutionalized" or are just excessively psychotic.

Have you ever heard that saying, in mental health circles, that goes something like, when suicidal feeelings become homicidal feelings.... It's a good sign.

I kid you not. I've read that somewhere. I think it mainly has to do with depression.

deadnothingbetter

Jeanie wrote:

No no! I'm not saying that treatment facilities such as the one you are at don't have a very valuable role to play, I'm simply wondering why kids are facing things like homelessness and family problems that can lead to depression and then require them to be institutionalized. I guess I'm wondering at why the system doesn't have more stop gaps in place to help them BEFORE it gets to that point.

i know what you mean... it would be awesome to avoid it before leading to that point. but i guess that's something that no system can ever or will ever fix for us... my firm belief is that these situations are completely avoidable but it has to do in your upbringing... or rather, let me rephrase that, in your own personal beliefs.

i have a hard time with people saying that they never achieved things in life because of their upbringing, their parents were abusive or whatever the thing might be. i'm a firm believer in creating your own destiny... in that same sense i believe depression is something that we as individuals have to overcome. above the medications and the systems, there is our own will. our problems shouldn't be blamed on society, religion, or even your upbringing... our problems should be blamed mainly on us. i mean, i understand if it's a child but in that sense i guess that's why we have agencies like cps or things of that nature to protect individuals who aren't mentally mature enough to make their own decisions.

like a social worker told me today... it's like survival of the fittest. there are people who don't have the coping skills as the majority would. they stack up all amount of reasoning that makes sense to them that the only solution they could find is to end their lives. in that sense, homelessness, or whatever problem maybe is a problem that's completely avoidable by us.

look at my father... he moved legally to the united states at age 16... and began renting his own apartment by 17... all while working as a bus boy in a restaurant getting paid $1.21/hour not to boast about, cause it's really in our nature. in every single individual.

i guess this reminds me of that one song by the flaming lips. "i was waiting for a moment, but the moment never came... all the billion other moments were just slipping all away." in my opinion, suicidal patients who for the most part fall into a deep depression found there were no other moments left, except for that one moment... like forgetting to pay the bills and their all stacking up, the death of a loved one, a brake up with boyfriend/girlfriend.... those are just moments we can easily overcome and just wait for all those billion other moments...

i dunno, just my point of view... i'm feeling kinda quasi today

deadnothingbetter

gue_barium wrote:

Have you ever heard that saying, in mental health circles, that goes something like, when suicidal feeelings become homicidal feelings.... It's a good sign.

I kid you not. I've read that somewhere. I think it mainly has to do with depression.

no, i never heard of it

#X.

I agree with WolfBear. I have told my husband, that if i ever get cancer we are moving to Oregon, where assistance is legal. Same with other forms of sucide, it doesn't need to be messy, to die is a natural form and expression of life. #X.

wolfbear

#X. wrote:

I agree with WolfBear. I have told my husband, that if i ever get cancer we are moving to Oregon, where assistance is legal. Same with other forms of sucide, it doesn't need to be messy, to die is a natural form and expression of life. #X.

Wow, I haven't checked this thread out for a long time, it just became to "political" for me, but when I clicked, there was your post. I hope that no one ever needs an assisted death, but, I sure hope if I do it's there. I truly don't understand why people want people, or anything for that matter, to suffer. :(

catefrances

wolfbear wrote:

Wow, I haven't checked this thread out for a long time, it just became to "political" for me, but when I clicked, there was your post. I hope that no one ever needs an assisted death, but, I sure hope if I do it's there. I truly don't understand why people want people, or anything for that matter, to suffer. :(

well we are prepared to put our pets out of their misery but not those we love the most. i understand we don't want them to leave our lives but what kind of exit from life is it for them to suffer.

nickcat0

This is such a difficult topic .

To prolong a terminally ill person's life , just so they can suffer more pain , seems almost inhuman .

On the other hand , my grandfather committed suicide , unable to live with the loneliness of being a widower . Unfortunately my mum found his body . That was in 1963 and she is still haunted by the memory .

wolfbear

catefrances wrote:

well we are prepared to put our pets out of their misery but not those we love the most. i understand we don't want them to leave our lives but what kind of exit from life is it for them to suffer.

Exactly!

wolfbear

nickcat0 wrote:

This is such a difficult topic .

To prolong a terminally ill person's life , just so they can suffer more pain , seems almost inhuman .

On the other hand , my grandfather committed suicide , unable to live with the loneliness of being a widower . Unfortunately my mum found his body . That was in 1963 and she is still haunted by the memory .

I have to ask, how haunted? I'm sorry and if it's too personal, just tell me so or don't respond. Why I ask is that my dad committed suicide and I too have been "haunted", but I was actually happy for him. He ended his life when he thought was best and I had no trouble with it. I also did find his body along with my mom. I did have dreams though for a long time but they have subsided and gradually gone away. He died in 1983. It's sad for me that your mom is still troubled. Does she have some guilt feelings or feels she could have somehow done something to prevented it? If so, please tell her that is not the case. He did what he felt was right for him and everyone involved.

Jeanie

nickcat0 wrote:

This is such a difficult topic .

To prolong a terminally ill person's life , just so they can suffer more pain , seems almost inhuman .

On the other hand , my grandfather committed suicide , unable to live with the loneliness of being a widower . Unfortunately my mum found his body . That was in 1963 and she is still haunted by the memory .

It is a difficult topic.

I guess when it comes to medically assisted suicide or ending a persons suffering I feel that it's not my place to expect other people to live simply because I cannot bear the pain of them dying. When people you love need to end their lives this way it's tragic and distressing but ultimately I have to choose their rights over mine. It's torturous watching a loved one suffer a lingering death. Never seeing them again is awful and the situation a difficult one to live through but I would rather lose some one knowing that they were no longer suffering.

I guess this probably applies to suicide for me as well. I'd prefer it didn't happen but I can see why it does and I know it's not a reflection on my relationship with that person. More a reflection on the relationship that they have with themselves and their thoughts on how they are in the world in general. Having said all that, I'm really sorry that your Mum had to live with your grandfather's choice in that way. I'm sure it was never his intention to make her suffer, he was just unable to think past alleviating his own suffering at the time.

I have made my thoughts and feelings on medically assisted suicide and euthanasia known to all my friends and family. I have made it very clear that if I ever needed to take that option that I love them and it would have nothing to do with me wishing to cause them pain or suffering but rather would be to alleviate my own. I think it's my responsibility to make sure that my feelings on this issue are known so that my family and those who love me that are left behind are never left asking why. But then if I chose to take this option I would hope that they would be with me anyway.

Anyway waffled on enough. Just really wanted to say I'm sorry nick that happened to your family. I hope you can find peace in some way.

nickcat0

Thanks for the good wishes Jeanie and wolfbear .

I think my mum suffers from a guilt that maybe she could have done more to support her father over his bereavement . That if she had "been there for him " a little bit more , he wouldn't have taken his life .

Then she also has the mental image of his body , slumped , with his head in the gas oven .

Finally , she was pregnant with me at the time , and I think she wishes that he'd stayed a little longer and maybe found some joy in his 1st grandchild , and started to enjoy life again .

Now don't get me wrong . This unhappy event hasn't clouded her entire life , but there are moments when something will remind her .

Jeanie

nickcat0 wrote:

Thanks for the good wishes Jeanie and wolfbear .

I think my mum suffers from a guilt that maybe she could have done more to support her father over his bereavement . That if she had "been there for him " a little bit more , he wouldn't have taken his life .

Then she also has the mental image of his body , slumped , with his head in the gas oven .

Finally , she was pregnant with me at the time , and I think she wishes that he'd stayed a little longer and maybe found some joy in his 1st grandchild , and started to enjoy life again .

Now don't get me wrong . This unhappy event hasn't clouded her entire life , but there are moments when something will remind her .

An awful thing for her nick. An awful thing for her to live with. And natural that she would feel how she does. Guess that's where the real sadness of that kind of thing comes into it. But I am quite sure that her father would never have wished to cause her such grief and trauma.
I recently lost my grandmother and was holding her hand when she took her last breath. I'm glad that she's no longer suffering but I'd do pretty much anything to have her back with me. And it is hard to try to wipe that last memory of her from my mind. I can't imagine what it must be like for your Mum. Death is a difficult thing for the living.

nickcat0

I'm certain my grandad had no intention of hurting anyone but himself . I'd suggest that the grief he was feeling led to some disturbed thinking .

Death can be a blessing . My wife and I watched her mother deteriorate over several years . To see her lying there , in her hospital bed , at peace , looking years younger , was strangely reassuring .