Suicide

deadnothingbetter

Collin wrote:

Euthanasia is illegal in the States, right? To me that's also suicide. But you're right it is something different.

i don't think euthanasia is legal here in texas but i do know that suicide is legal here in texas. i mean, well, they'll send a person to the hospital on a court-order if they're suicidal but that's about it. they won't send them to jail or fine them. really, the only reason suicide is illegal in other states is cause it costs the states so much money when a person is caught trying to jump off a building, hang themselves, or about to blow their brains out.

Snake

Well its sad when someone really is pushed to the point of suicide, but
I dont think its the governments place to control someones life (literally). I think that if someone wants to commit suiced they have every right to (not that its the right choice). So all in all they should be given some kind of treatment, but it shouldnt be illegal.

deadnothingbetter

Snake wrote:

Well its sad when someone really is pushed to the point of suicide, but
I dont think its the governments place to control someones life (literally). I think that if someone wants to commit suiced they have every right to (not that its the right choice). So all in all they should be given some kind of treatment, but it shouldnt be illegal.

do you think it's ok if the law should place a court-order for a suicidal patient to get treatment?

gue_barium

Collin wrote:

What are your views on suicide?

"If someone chooses to end their life, should we allow them to?"

This question was asked in another thread.

If I chose to do myself in, there wouldn't be room for allowance.

Jeanie

deadnothingbetter wrote:

do you think it's ok if the law should place a court-order for a suicidal patient to get treatment?

That's a really interesting question dead.

I think I need to ponder it some more.

My first reaction is hell no! But then I can also see the practicality of it.

catefrances

deadnothingbetter wrote:

humor me for a second. what if that's not the case at all? what if it is for a trivial thing?

if they have cancer and want to end their life... that's a whooole other ballpark. that's euthanizing

what do you consider trivial?
waking up every morning and being angry that you have. being so angry that you hurt yourself just to get through. knowing that if you at least continue to do that then perhaps you can stay a bit longer. thinking of ways to end your life and then thinking of reasons to stay. thinking that your life is not worth living and then having to listen to people telling you otherwise cause they just don't get it.

Deni

Staceb10 wrote:

painless? For who? The people they leave behind? I don't think so. I've gotten into this debate with others on here before but in my opinion suicide is a very selfish act and only hurts the people left behind.


It would be absurd to put people who attempt suicide in jail though. I can't think of any valid reasoning behind that one.

Just so you guys know... the whole "suicide is painless" thing... that's a line from a song.

The music without words is actually the theme song to that old show M.A.S.H.

deadnothingbetter

catefrances wrote:

what do you consider trivial?
waking up every morning and being angry that you have. being so angry that you hurt yourself just to get through. knowing that if you at least continue to do that then perhaps you can stay a bit longer. thinking of ways to end your life and then thinking of reasons to stay. thinking that your life is not worth living and then having to listen to people telling you otherwise cause they just don't get it.

if someone wakes up angry every morning so much that they want to hurt themselves, or whatever, then by all means, i have every reason to suspect that it's caused by a mental illness.

there are people who get sad for actual and real things that every normal individual would get sad about. a relative died, bills are mounting up, your partner is cheating on you... these are all things that i wouldn't necessarily consider trivial.

ok...here's my theory about suicide...

it's a fact. there are certain psychosis that leads people to be suicidal. mdd, bad, etc.

but the debate goes along the lines that NOT every suicide is due to psychosis. or is it? so you have strong opposing sides... some think it's a chemical imbalance, others think it's not.

so what is suicide? when someone is suicidal what lead them to be suicidal? if a mental psychosis isn't linked then you have every reason to speculate that the person who is suicidal is perfectly normal in the head and is just basing on emotions. but isn't that kinda redundant??? isn't that already the case? a chemical imbalance? if a person is suicidal then it means they're depressed.... so depressed that they can't control their emotions... a chemical imbalance.

emotions are based on chemicals....everybody gets sad from the same "trivial" or "untrivial" things. whether your cat died, a friend died in a car accident, your mother passed away then two weeks later your father dies of a heart attack (this actually happened to one of our patients) all these things causes everybody to be sad. but when it comes to the point where they can't "deal" or "cope" with it then it means to me that they can't control their emotions. their chemicals are all screwed up in the head... it's not their fault

i mean otherwise if a person doesn't suffer from a chemical imbalance when they are suicidal then who in their right mind would ever think that dying is the ultimate choice? that sounds pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

deadnothingbetter

Jeanie wrote:

That's a really interesting question dead.

I think I need to ponder it some more.

My first reaction is hell no! But then I can also see the practicality of it.

at least, that's the law here in texas. if someone tries to hurt themselves they are sent to us so whether they can determine or not if the person suffers from a mental illness. but they stay, regardless, for 3 days or so. just so they can "rehabilitate" themselves. they have group therapy, one-on-one sessions with a really cool doctor, and they can make new friends. it's not jail. i'd say 7.5 out of 10 people are always willing to stay... the others that are not so willing to stay are the more aggressive ones, or really do suffer from a major psychosis.

i myself can't fathom how many patients out their are actually suicidal... cause the 95% of the patients that we get are suicidal. the other 5 are either chemical dependent or just aggressive.

catefrances

deadnothingbetter wrote:

if someone wakes up angry every morning so much that they want to hurt themselves, or whatever, then by all means, i have every reason to suspect that it's caused by a mental illness.

there are people who get sad for actual and real things that every normal individual would get sad about. a relative died, bills are mounting up, your partner is cheating on you... these are all things that i wouldn't necessarily consider trivial.

ok...here's my theory about suicide...

it's a fact. there are certain psychosis that leads people to be suicidal. mdd, bad, etc.

but the debate goes along the lines that NOT every suicide is due to psychosis. or is it? so you have strong opposing sides... some think it's a chemical imbalance, others think it's not.

so what is suicide? when someone is suicidal what lead them to be suicidal? if a mental psychosis isn't linked then you have every reason to speculate that the person who is suicidal is perfectly normal in the head and is just basing on emotions. but isn't that kinda redundant??? isn't that already the case? a chemical imbalance? if a person is suicidal then it means they're depressed.... so depressed that they can't control their emotions... a chemical imbalance.

emotions are based on chemicals....everybody gets sad from the same "trivial" or "untrivial" things. whether your cat died, a friend died in a car accident, your mother passed away then two weeks later your father dies of a heart attack (this actually happened to one of our patients) all these things causes everybody to be sad. but when it comes to the point where they can't "deal" or "cope" with it then it means to me that they can't control their emotions. their chemicals are all screwed up in the head... it's not their fault

i mean otherwise if a person doesn't suffer from a chemical imbalance when they are suicidal then who in their right mind would ever think that dying is the ultimate choice? that sounds pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

why is it ridiculous? the only life you lead is yours. you have no idea what goes through other people's minds. not even people you see everyday.

for example. today in class the prof was calling the roll. he asked everyone how they were and everyone said they were fine. everyone except me. i thought you have to be shitting me, how can they all sit there and say they are fine? is it some courtesy thing where they don't want to rock the boat? or do they all genuinely feel fine, thanks for asking?

you know i know something is wrong. i know i shouldn't wake up every day feeling the way i do. i know i need to deal with it. and i am. but what i won't do is have anyone get me into a situation where any mind altering will be going on. i have my methods and they aren't what would be considered successful i imagine, but they work for me, for now. i am still here and that is all anyone can ask of me right now.

deadnothingbetter

catefrances wrote:

why is it ridiculous? the only life you lead is yours. you have no idea what goes through other people's minds. not even people you see everyday.

for example. today in class the prof was calling the roll. he asked everyone how they were and everyone said they were fine. everyone except me. i thought you have to be shitting me, how can they all sit there and say they are fine? is it some courtesy thing where they don't want to rock the boat? or do they all genuinely feel fine, thanks for asking?

you know i know something is wrong. i know i shouldn't wake up every day feeling the way i do. i know i need to deal with it. and i am. but what i won't do is have anyone get me into a situation where any mind altering will be going on. i have my methods and they aren't what would be considered successful i imagine, but they work for me, for now. i am still here and that is all anyone can ask of me right now.

well, it's like you only read the last line i posted but failed to recognize the rest of my response.

i don't think you're ridiculous... i think that you're perceptions are obscurred and so you're dealing with situations in ways that like you said aren't what most would consider succesful. if your methods aren't taking that "pain" away in the first place why keep doing it?

catefrances

deadnothingbetter wrote:

well, it's like you only read the last line i posted but failed to recognize the rest of my response.

i don't think you're ridiculous... i think that you're perceptions are obscurred and so you're dealing with situations in ways that like you said aren't what most would consider succesful. if your methods aren't taking that "pain" away in the first place why keep doing it?

no i didn't fail to recognise the rest of your response. what i was doing was responding to this:

who in their right mind would ever think that dying is the ultimate choice? that sounds pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

i don't even know what 'in their right mind' means? how is it measured? i'll be the first to admit i don't see the world the same way as a lot of people. and just recently i was told that my family consider me dysfunctional. and while i know the pain of being 'left behind', i certainly don't think it selfish or cowardly when someone decides for whatever reason to take their own life. they are the only one who has to live it. they are the only person who can, so who are we to say they can't make that decision. sure we'd prefer they didn't but if the alternative is them feeling like they'd rather be dead while still living for whatever reasons, then i say we deal with our grief when they're gone.

deadnothingbetter

catefrances wrote:

no i didn't fail to recognise the rest of your response. what i was doing was responding to this:

who in their right mind would ever think that dying is the ultimate choice? that sounds pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

i don't even know what 'in their right mind' means? how is it measured? i'll be the first to admit i don't see the world the same way as a lot of people. and just recently i was told that my family consider me dysfunctional. and while i know the pain of being 'left behind', i certainly don't think it selfish or cowardly when someone decides for whatever reason to take their own life. they are the only one who has to live it. they are the only person who can, so who are we to say they can't make that decision. sure we'd prefer they didn't but if the alternative is them feeling like they'd rather be dead while still living for whatever reasons, then i say we deal with our grief when they're gone.

yes, maam, i repeat... who in their right mind would ever think that dying is the ultimate choice to rid of your "pain"? it was a rhetorical question. convince me that you're ok....

but on the contrary, you said that you "know you have a problem" and "you know you need to deal with it" and you conclude that you are. so what's your problem in particular? the fact that you wake up every morning? the fact that your prof said good morning? the fact that everybody responded? is that a problem? or is your problem something a little deeper?

again, i don't think you're ridiculous... i was trying to make a point. if someone is suicidal but is not suffering from a chemical imbalance how do they make sense that whatever it is their doing is actually working for them? lacerations on the wrists? arms? legs? that fixes your problems? how? how does it ease your emotions?

right minds are measured by the good they accomplish, whether to others or to themselves. the issue isn't about it being selfish or unselfish... or of the grief you left for others. the issue is about having one less person die for any insignificant reason.... it's like a nemesis... an invisible one. it seems the human objective is to accomplish things in life... we don't want to immortalize our names. we only want to die knowing that we lived for a reason. but then something obscures our objective then we begin to ask ourselves what the point is. and conclude that there is no reason for living, that is our nemesis. a little stitch on our sides that lives with everybody till the day we die. well, why not portray this nemesis as a visible one? something literal that you can put in front of you and say to yourself that you'll fight it and you'll win it. afterall, when were you making sense? maybe to yourself you were but trade your concepts for this one. why not give it a chance?

catefrances

deadnothingbetter wrote:

yes, maam, i repeat... who in their right mind would ever think that dying is the ultimate choice to rid of your "pain"? it was a rhetorical question. convince me that you're ok....

i can't convince you that i'm okay. i have enough trouble convincing myself. and sure there are those times when i laugh and i smile. but it never feels right. it feels like a betrayal.

deadnothingbetter wrote:

again, i don't think you're ridiculous... i was trying to make a point. if someone is suicidal but is not suffering from a chemical imbalance how do they make sense that whatever it is their doing is actually working for them? lacerations on the wrists? arms? legs? that fixes your problems? how? how does it ease your emotions?

no cutting doesn't fix the problems. it keeps them at bay so you can maintain some sort of function. and i can't explain how it eases emotions. it just dulls them i think. i guess it's a release. there are times when you feel so low and such a fool cause you don't know exactly why you feel the way you do. and you can't figure out any other way to work through it. you get this screaming in your head that you wish would go away. it hurts, but then you feel numb. you feel ashamed because you know no one will understand. you know that if you chose to you could cause some real permanent damage. it is the lesser of two evils if you want it put that way.
and all i know is right now what i do is working for me cause i am still here.

catefrances

deadnothingbetter wrote:

it seems the human objective is to accomplish things in life... we don't want to immortalize our names. we only want to die knowing that we lived for a reason. but then something obscures our objective then we begin to ask ourselves what the point is. and conclude that there is no reason for living, that is our nemesis. a little stitch on our sides that lives with everybody till the day we die. well, why not portray this nemesis as a visible one? something literal that you can put in front of you and say to yourself that you'll fight it and you'll win it. afterall, when were you making sense? maybe to yourself you were but trade your concepts for this one. why not give it a chance?

the nemesis is myself. that's what i'm fighting against. it's got nothing to do with anybody else. i think that's what most people can't understand.

deadnothingbetter

catefrances wrote:

the nemesis is myself. that's what i'm fighting against. it's got nothing to do with anybody else. i think that's what most people can't understand.

yes the nemesis is yourself... but be creative... put it as a separate form... a separate being.

callen

catefrances wrote:

the nemesis is myself. that's what i'm fighting against. it's got nothing to do with anybody else. i think that's what most people can't understand.

I do understand...along with the rest of your posts on page...as with other subjects discussed on this board....there's a level most will never attain.

genie

Collin wrote:

What are your views on suicide?

"If someone chooses to end their life, should we allow them to?"

This question was asked in another thread.

it's rather sensitive topic.

on one hand, in certain situation certain person should be allowed to kill themselves or with help of others, on the other hand it shouldn't

there are two situations:

one is where person is severely disabled, and every day in their life is literally a pain to them, mentally and physically then suicide is the only thing that's going to make them free from their pain and problems they have to face every day.

another one is where a person has a very bad patch in their life and can see no way out, like a person who broke up with their loved one, who has no friends, who has no family and no one to turn to when their down, someone who thinks the whole world is against them and that no one loves them, who think that there is not way out. those people should be talked out of suicide, and helped with, and help doesn't even have to come from psychiatrist

Jeanie

deadnothingbetter wrote:

at least, that's the law here in texas. if someone tries to hurt themselves they are sent to us so whether they can determine or not if the person suffers from a mental illness. but they stay, regardless, for 3 days or so. just so they can "rehabilitate" themselves. they have group therapy, one-on-one sessions with a really cool doctor, and they can make new friends. it's not jail. i'd say 7.5 out of 10 people are always willing to stay... the others that are not so willing to stay are the more aggressive ones, or really do suffer from a major psychosis.

i myself can't fathom how many patients out their are actually suicidal... cause the 95% of the patients that we get are suicidal. the other 5 are either chemical dependent or just aggressive.

Yeah, that's why I said hell no and then reconsidered.
Of the people that you get in, how many of them are completely pissed off and acting out because they've been institutionalized? I'm just curious.
Coz I know that had I been sent off by court order after my little episode with the medication I'd have got out and sued the court, the institution, my doctor and the pharmaceutical company.

Snake

deadnothingbetter wrote:

do you think it's ok if the law should place a court-order for a suicidal patient to get treatment?

Yeah thats more reasonable.
But at the same time I still dont think its the place of the government. Maybe if a family member requests something like that then that might work out better. But definitly a good point!