Humanitarian Aid - the myths!

redrock · January 2007

Collin wrote:

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp#ForeignAidNumbersinChartsandGraphs

Net ODA in 2005 as percent of GNI

Norway 0.93
Sweden 0.92
Luxembourg 0.87
Netherlands 0.82
Denmark 0.81
Belgium 0.53
Austria 0.52
UK 0.48
Finland 0.47
France 0.47
Switzerland 0.44
Ireland 0.41
Germany 0.35
Canada 0.34
Italy 0.29
Spain 0.29
Japan 0.28
New Zealand 0.27
Australia 0.25
Greece 0.24
USA 0.22
Portugal 0.21

I guess if the target is 0.7% of GNI, not many countries can be proud of themselves...

jlew24asu · January 2007

redrock wrote:

Your stats are probably correct too (the link didn't work for me), but the US are a huge (and rich?) country. Obviously the total $ amount is larger but, if we are looking at a percentage of gdp or per capita, it is true that there are other countries that are more generous. Whatever amount, any amount of aid is welcomed by the people who need it.

I'm not debating whether we give the most per capita. we dont. my point is in dollars and cents. the dollars that actually put food on the table. USA gives the most. and your last statement is correct

lukin2006 · January 2007

redrock wrote:

Here we go.. ww2 again...

No! Not here we go again, I used that as a reference point. And since that point they have given plenty. I personally don't care who gives the most or who gives the least, but lets be real, most of that money that goes into foreign aid does not reach the people its intended to help.

redrock · January 2007

jlew24asu wrote:

I'm not debating whether we give the most per capita. we dont. my point is in dollars and cents. the dollars that actually put food on the table. USA gives the most. and your last statement is correct

Yep.. in dollars and cents.

ThumbingMyWay32 · January 2007

lol Jlew says we give more humanitarian dollars than any other country in the world by far.

And what is the response to that?

"No you don't. Just look at these Per Capita figures."

Listen... If you're a dumbass, just say so. Otherwise, just shut up if you can't speak on topic.

farfromglorified · January 2007

Heineken Helen wrote:

EVERYBODY donated money to katrina victims... there were people collecting all over the place. Just like the tsunami. How teh fuck am I supposed to remember what I gave... it was ages ago. But I DID give and it was a lot at the time. Not that it's any of your business but I have a standing order to a charity every month - that's MY priority.

Awesome! Now, do you also recognize that millions of people in the United States share that priority?

What's yours? What percentage do you give and to what charity?

I am willing to give 50% of my income to charity. The government steals roughly 40% of that, so the remaining 10% goes to charities of my choosing.

Wow, even Sri Lanka were sending aid to Katrina victims... so don't gimme that 'how come we never got aid' bullshit...

I didn't give you that bullshit. I simply challenged your ridiculous generalization of the Katrina situation, ignoring the millions of incredibly generous people here who donated their time, money and efforts.

farfromglorified · January 2007

redrock wrote:

Why does this have to become personal? HH was stating a fact/statistics... can we stick to that? We are not talking specific individuals but nations.

Hehe..."nations" can't donate money friend.

When someone suggests that the United States is "uncharitable" or does not deserve credit for the charitable works it does throughout this world, they've made things personal.

miller8966 · January 2007

i personally dont think we should give any money.

farfromglorified · January 2007

I'm curious, would those of you who talk about "percent GDP" on this issue do the same with issues such as the national debt? For instance, the United State's national debt, as a percentage of GDP, is lower than most European nations. Also, what about on Education spending, where the US is tenth, ahead of many European nations? How come "percent GDP" never comes up in those discussions? What about the poverty issue? How come "per-capita GDP" doesn't come up there, where the US ranks third?

Furthermore, I don't see any mention at all of private donations in these figures. The United States citizenry donates nearly three times privately overseas than they do publicly through government institutions. Does this simply not count?

The fact remains is that the United States gives the most hard dollars to foreign aid, by far. You cannot feed people with "percent GDP". You feed them with food bought with money or harvested with time. The US leads the world in these donations. Should we be celebrated as wonderfully charitable people? Not necessarily, no. Should we be vilified for not "giving enough"? Of course not. Those who receive this aid should simply be thankful. In most cases, they've done nothing to earn it. Those who simply observe this aid are in no position to criticize -- they own their own behavior, not the behavior of others.

There is nothing more petty and disgusting than the child who will quibble with the giver over his charity. If you do not like it, do not accept it. If you do not think it's enough, supplement it. But do not pretend it is owed to you -- you've done nothing to earn it.

lalalalaaaaaaaa · January 2007

The U.S is the major provider of forgien aid (I think), but the majority of U.S. aid to other countries is typically not humanitarian...it's mostly economic aid that's given to a select few people and groups who use the money to increase their exports to the U.S. This makes money for rich investors, but does very little for the common people. Yeah, it provides jobs, but the jobs are usually terrible. And in countries where the main exports are agro-related, you see a large percentage of the population starving to death because all their farm land is being used up by the wealthy landowners making a killing with their U.S. exports (Honduras or Nicaragua are good examples). GDP and profits go way up, and the majority of the population plummets into disaster because there's no land left for domestic agriculture. So it's hardly humanitarian. This goes without even mentioning the military aid, which we all know is basically the opposite of humanitarian aid.

Collin · January 2007

farfromglorified wrote:

The fact remains is that the United States gives the most hard dollars to foreign aid, by far. You cannot feed people with "percent GDP". You feed them with food bought with money or harvested with time. The US leads the world in these donations. Should we be celebrated as wonderfully charitable people? Not necessarily, no.

I think Helen knows this, the point is Americans are boasting about how much they give, and how they give more than any other country in the world, well that's just stupid, imo. It's demographics, you didn't do anything spectacular you just happen to be the third most populated country in the world. Congratulations on being born there.

miller8966 · January 2007

Collin wrote:

I think Helen knows this, the point is Americans are boasting about how much they give, and how they give more than any other country in the world, well that's just stupid, imo. It's demographics, you didn't do anything spectacular you just happen to be the third most populated country in the world. Congratulations on being born there.

Yea but everybody wants to be us.

Collin · January 2007

miller8966 wrote:

Yea but everybody wants to be us.

I very much doubt that. Just talk to anyone in Europe.

NCfan · January 2007

Collin wrote:

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp#ForeignAidNumbersinChartsandGraphs

Net ODA in 2005 as percent of GNI

Norway 0.93
Sweden 0.92
Luxembourg 0.87
Netherlands 0.82
Denmark 0.81
Belgium 0.53
Austria 0.52
UK 0.48
Finland 0.47
France 0.47
Switzerland 0.44
Ireland 0.41
Germany 0.35
Canada 0.34
Italy 0.29
Spain 0.29
Japan 0.28
New Zealand 0.27
Australia 0.25
Greece 0.24
USA 0.22
Portugal 0.21

Hmmmmmmmm, has anybody asked themselves why there are no Middle Eastern countries on this list? I mean, many of them are drowning in oil. I think the king of Saudi Arabia recently ordered the most expensive personal yacht ever built - over $300 million by some estimates and over 500 ft long.

I'm not saying that is grounds to invade Iraq or anything - but I just hate it when people talking about pressuring countries over there to be more "progressive" and oponents shout back how we shouldn't judge them and if their governments oppress their people - who are we to say they shouldn't. Like we need to respect their culture or something if we disagree.

You have UAE, Saudi Arabia, Quater, Kuwait all these countries as rich as any Western nation - yet they don't help any of their neighbors and leave that to the West sort out. That's just classy huh?

angelica · January 2007

Collin wrote:

I very much doubt that. Just talk to anyone in Europe.

Or Canada.

jlew24asu · January 2007

NCfan wrote:

Hmmmmmmmm, has anybody asked themselves why there are no Middle Eastern countries on this list? I mean, many of them are drowning in oil. I think the king of Saudi Arabia recently ordered the most expensive personal yacht ever built - over $300 million by some estimates and over 500 ft long.

I'm not saying that is grounds to invade Iraq or anything - but I just hate it when people talking about pressuring countries over there to be more "progressive" and oponents shout back how we shouldn't judge them and if their governments oppress their people - who are we to say they shouldn't. Like we need to respect their culture or something if we disagree.

You have UAE, Saudi Arabia, Quater, Kuwait all these countries as rich as any Western nation - yet they don't help any of their neighbors and leave that to the West sort out. That's just classy huh?

Excellent point

farfromglorified · January 2007

Collin wrote:

I think Helen knows this, the point is Americans are boasting about how much they give, and how they give more than any other country in the world, well that's just stupid, imo. It's demographics, you didn't do anything spectacular you just happen to be the third most populated country in the world. Congratulations on being born there.

It isn't "stupid". It's true. We do give more than any other country in the world, in total dollars. Furthermore, many people in the United States did do something spectacular about it -- creating the value upon which those charitable dollars are based via their labors.

Certainly someone who runs around boasting about America's charitable giving is probably someone who has ulterior motives, but someone who runs around criticizing America's charitable giving is also highly questionable. Both behaviors are childish.

Charity is the act of giving based on generosity. And generosity, in any amount, should be commended. It is not something to be held on a relative scale and derided.

America, like all nations, is full of generous people. The fact that we handle more of our charitable giving privately than publicly is simply consistent with our political heritage. And the fact that we are sometimes interested in tying our charity or assessments of merit is simply consistent with our cultural heritage.

If I started a thread here telling people that I was sick of hearing that Irish people were hard working and then held up the fact that their per-capita GDP is less than ours (by a whopping $1k, no less), I'd hope people would strongly reject my claims. The sad fact of the matter is that any chance to criticize the United States here in the guise of "eye opening" information is welcomed.

dunkman · January 2007

NCfan wrote:

Hmmmmmmmm, has anybody asked themselves why there are no Middle Eastern countries on this list? I mean, many of them are drowning in oil. I think the king of Saudi Arabia recently ordered the most expensive personal yacht ever built - over $300 million by some estimates and over 500 ft long.

I'm not saying that is grounds to invade Iraq or anything - but I just hate it when people talking about pressuring countries over there to be more "progressive" and oponents shout back how we shouldn't judge them and if their governments oppress their people - who are we to say they shouldn't. Like we need to respect their culture or something if we disagree.

You have UAE, Saudi Arabia, Quater, Kuwait all these countries as rich as any Western nation - yet they don't help any of their neighbors and leave that to the West sort out. That's just classy huh?

If you'd read his link then you'd have seen that the stats were compiled by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development which is :-

The OECD groups 30 member countries sharing a commitment to democratic government and the market economy. With active relationships with some 70 other countries and economies, NGOs and civil society, it has a global reach. Best known for its publications and its statistics, its work covers economic and social issues from macroeconomics, to trade, education, development and science and innovation.

OECD MEMBER COUNTRIES

Twenty countries originally signed the Convention on the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development on 14 December 1960. Since then a further ten countries have become members of the Organisation. The Member countries of the Organisation and the dates on which they deposited their instruments of ratification are:

AUSTRALIA: 7 June 1971
AUSTRIA: 29 September 1961
BELGIUM: 13 September 1961
CANADA: 10 April 1961
CZECH REPUBLIC: 21 December 1995
DENMARK: 30 May 1961
FINLAND: 28 January 1969
FRANCE: 7 August 1961
GERMANY: 27 September 1961
GREECE: 27 September 1961
HUNGARY: 7 May 1996
ICELAND: 5 June 1961
IRELAND: 17 August 1961
ITALY: 29 March 1962
JAPAN: 28 April 1964
KOREA: 12 December 1996
LUXEMBOURG: 7 December 1961
MEXICO: 18 May 1994
NETHERLANDS: 13 November 1961
NEW ZEALAND: 29 May 1973
NORWAY: 4 July 1961
POLAND: 22 November 1996
PORTUGAL: 4 August 1961
SLOVAK REPUBLIC: 14 December 2000
SPAIN: 3 August 1961
SWEDEN: 28 September 1961
SWITZERLAND: 28 September 1961
TURKEY: 2 August 1961
UNITED KINGDOM: 2 May 1961
UNITED STATES: 12 April 1961

Collin · January 2007

farfromglorified wrote:

It isn't "stupid". It's true.

Something can be stupid and true, you know.

We do give more than any other country in the world, in total dollars. Furthermore, many people in the United States did do something spectacular about it -- creating the value upon which those charitable dollars are based via their labors.

I know you give more in total dollars but that's just because you have a bigger population. Everyone (most western countries) give money, so what's the point in acting all high and mighty about it?

They're boasting about something that everyone does. And ok, maybe they did do something spectecular, but again, all those countries did.

And the fact remains, if you look at percentages, the US is at the bottom of the list (which is still the top though).

NCfan · January 2007

dunkman1974 wrote:

If you'd read his link then you'd have seen that the stats were compiled by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development which is :-

The OECD groups 30 member countries sharing a commitment to democratic government and the market economy. With active relationships with some 70 other countries and economies, NGOs and civil society, it has a global reach. Best known for its publications and its statistics, its work covers economic and social issues from macroeconomics, to trade, education, development and science and innovation.

OECD MEMBER COUNTRIES

Twenty countries originally signed the Convention on the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development on 14 December 1960. Since then a further ten countries have become members of the Organisation. The Member countries of the Organisation and the dates on which they deposited their instruments of ratification are:

AUSTRALIA: 7 June 1971
AUSTRIA: 29 September 1961
BELGIUM: 13 September 1961
CANADA: 10 April 1961
CZECH REPUBLIC: 21 December 1995
DENMARK: 30 May 1961
FINLAND: 28 January 1969
FRANCE: 7 August 1961
GERMANY: 27 September 1961
GREECE: 27 September 1961
HUNGARY: 7 May 1996
ICELAND: 5 June 1961
IRELAND: 17 August 1961
ITALY: 29 March 1962
JAPAN: 28 April 1964
KOREA: 12 December 1996
LUXEMBOURG: 7 December 1961
MEXICO: 18 May 1994
NETHERLANDS: 13 November 1961
NEW ZEALAND: 29 May 1973
NORWAY: 4 July 1961
POLAND: 22 November 1996
PORTUGAL: 4 August 1961
SLOVAK REPUBLIC: 14 December 2000
SPAIN: 3 August 1961
SWEDEN: 28 September 1961
SWITZERLAND: 28 September 1961
TURKEY: 2 August 1961
UNITED KINGDOM: 2 May 1961
UNITED STATES: 12 April 1961

Ah, well I guess Middle Eastern nations wouldn't want to be involved anyways
because this group has a shared commitment to democratic government and the market economy. Not to mention their work in economic and social issues like education, development and science and innovation probably wouldn't sit well with the government.

Humanitarian Aid - the myths!

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