Humanitarian Aid - the myths!

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  • beemster wrote:

    What we need is thread started that rags on Europeans, of course whats the point, after reading many posy by Europeans, we all know by now they are perfect.
    Yes... that's exactly what we need :confused: go start one, I won't be offended if you have a genuine point to make!
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • What you're looking for here is to link the simple fact of having to an obligation to those who do not have. That's commonly referred to as guilt, and as a good Irishperson you're probably quite familiar with that ;)

    Now, here's the fundamental problem with foreign aid. When foreign aid is motivated by guilt, it takes on the primary purpose of absolution. This is the problem that plagues foreign aid and leads to the thinking of those "braggarts" you speak of. If, tomorrow, the United States flushed an additional $50B down a toilet and filed that under the "foreign aid" category on a balance sheet, this thread wouldn't be possible. Yet no good would have come from the act.

    Charity, true charity, is never about absolution or guilt. Charity is about recognizing the path from sufferring to happiness within one man. In essence, charity is fundamentally about self-recognition. A meal granted does not accomplish much for the man who is starving, yet it can absolve you of your guilt. A dollar to the poor man does not accomplish much for the man who has no money, yet it can absolve you of your guilt. But reconizing, in your own efforts, where that meal or that dollar came from, and imparting that onto that starving man or poor man, is true charity.
    Noooo... that is what YOUR definition of charity is. It's too early in the morning for me to define what I think it is, but I'll say this, it's nothing to do with guilt. Guilt may be a factor that comes into it later, but any decent person could not bear to see somebody else suffering if there's something they can do abut it. Personally I'd rather GO to Africa than give my money... there must be something I can physically DO, whether it's teach or help with the sick or show them how to do things that will improve their way of life... I just don't have the resources to do this. I see a suffering person and I think 'if I were born in a different country or different situation, that could be me or somebody I love'.
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • evenkat wrote:

    The US is not that rich. Yes we have some millionaires and billionaires but the poor Americans actually out number them. We have millions of people unemployed and without health insurance. The US has a huge deficit and everyday the US borrows billions of dollars from China. We import way more than we export. So I am not sure if we actually are in the position to give more. Maybe if we stopped wasting money on bombs we could actually do some good.
    I find it's generally the poorer people who give more... I've collected for charities a couple of times and it's amazing the amount of elderly people who'll throw in 20euro or even 50. It's quite humbling... young people usually just walk past and pretend they can't see ya.
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • evenkatevenkat Posts: 380
    But you're willing to sacrifice economic freedom for socialist government spending policies.

    Constitutionally, the government has no right to spend any money on welfare, entitlements, or health care.

    I never said that so just stop.
    "...believe in lies...to get by...it's divine...whoa...oh, you know what its like..."
  • evenkatevenkat Posts: 380
    By your comments, you do not understand finance.

    Just because the U.S. borrows money does not mean it is not rich. Wealthy corporations borrow a lot of money too, but that's because they have the credit to do so. The U.S. has a perfect credit score and you will certainly get your money back if you invest in our government. Borrowing is a part of how an entity manages its capital. If wealthy companies didn't borrow money, they wouldn't be as successful as they are!

    You're right, real companies don't borrow more than they spend. Comparisons between governments and companies can be deceiving.

    Lol, you're the one who mentioned the US and corporations borrowing money in the first place.
    "...believe in lies...to get by...it's divine...whoa...oh, you know what its like..."
  • evenkatevenkat Posts: 380
    I find it's generally the poorer people who give more... I've collected for charities a couple of times and it's amazing the amount of elderly people who'll throw in 20euro or even 50. It's quite humbling... young people usually just walk past and pretend they can't see ya.

    I've collected for charity too and noticed the same thing.

    Ok I was being sidetracked. We are not a poor country but things are not what they seem sometimes. I wonder if Luxembourg, Norway and Denmark have a deficit like ours or even a deficit at all. Are we borrowing money to make the humanitarian aid in the first place?

    We should do more but we waste too much money in other areas like war and bombs instead.
    "...believe in lies...to get by...it's divine...whoa...oh, you know what its like..."
  • evenkatevenkat Posts: 380
    sponger wrote:
    That just gives you a more accurate GDP, but the fact is you still used GDP, which doesn't even take into account housing costs. And, again, it is merely an overall average that doesn't take into account wealth distribution.

    Exactly!
    "...believe in lies...to get by...it's divine...whoa...oh, you know what its like..."
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    evenkat wrote:
    Yes, it is shocking that we have so many poor people living the US. As for the unemployment, 4.5% may seem like a small number to you but tell that to the 14 million Americans without a job.
    some of those americans choose not to have a job. and 4.5% is not bad.
    evenkat wrote:
    You want to compare the US with Europe? Well at least most Europeans have free health care and free college education.
    well arent they special.
    evenkat wrote:
    You said we are rich country. Would a rich country have more poor people than millionaires and billionaires? Would a rich country have 14 million people without jobs and millions more without health care? Would a rich country have 37 million people living in poverty? Would a rich country have an 8.6 trillion dollar deficit? Would a rich country have to borrow billions of dollars everyday just to get by?
    you are talking about a country of 300,000,000 million people and a gross domestic product of $12,500,000,000,000.00.

    you still dont see how stupid this comment is.
    Would a rich country have more poor people than millionaires and billionaires?
    what is your definition of poor? but since you asked, there are 8 million millionaires in the US. and the most billionaires of any country.

    you cant compared #of (super) rich compared to #of (poverty)poor. how about the people inbetween? I dont have a million dollars but I live very comfortably here in the evil USA. I am no where near poor, yet not close to being a millionaire either.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    evenkat wrote:
    Lol, you obviously know nothing about me or what I do for a living but I actually do work with financing more than you will ever know.

    We are talking borrowing billions of dollars every single day and not just a loan here and there and a couple of credit cards. I would never let my company run up a huge deficit and just pay the interest. Listen, wealthy corporations don't spend way more than they bring in, well unless they want to file for chapter 11. That is exactly what our country does, we import way more than we export and we borrow and spend. It's actually very dangerous. What if China tells us one day they don't want to lend us any more money and by the way pay up?

    I'm not saying we are a poor country but I'm just saying we are not as rich as some people may believe.
    maybe its time you find a new job. yes we are rich and can afford our billion dollar payments. if china doesnt lend us money someone else will.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    sponger wrote:

    Over the years, the distribution of wealth has been shiting to fewer and fewer people. Fewer and fewer people are able to afford homes.
    are you talking about in the last few months? because before that this country went through the biggest housing boom of all time. I would say more and more people can afford homes instead of fewer an fewer.
    sponger wrote:
    People are working more hours to maintain the same standard of living. Unemployment may be low, but a big chunk of those who are "employed" are living way below the poverty level.
    people keep throwing this word around. does anyone know the poverty level? my grandma is almost considered poverty level and is doing just fine. when people see "living in poverty" they think it means they are living in the street
    sponger wrote:
    And if this was Canada, they'd at least have their medical care, which they are probably not getting here in the states.
    maybe soon we will have some healthcare reform in this country. but our system definitely protects the elderly. and offers some benefit to most people. it should be noted that the US government does do something regarding healthcare. as opposed to nothing. big difference
  • evenkatevenkat Posts: 380
    jlew24asu wrote:
    maybe its time you find a new job. yes we are rich and can afford our billion dollar payments. if china doesnt lend us money someone else will.

    Maybe instead of personal attacks you should post something useful.

    I'll tell ya what, you go out and take out a bunch of loans and get as many credit cards as possible and max them all out. Tell me is that really a smart thing to do because you are basically saying it is ok for our government to that. Credit can be a good thing but it should be used wisely. If you borrow too much eventually it will bankrupt you. It is a fact.

    By the way, we do not only borrow from China. Look into it.

    Anyhow we are derailing this thread so by now.
    "...believe in lies...to get by...it's divine...whoa...oh, you know what its like..."
  • evenkatevenkat Posts: 380
    jlew24asu wrote:
    some of those americans choose not to have a job. and 4.5% is not bad.
    well arent they special.

    you are talking about a country of 300,000,000 million people and a gross domestic product of $12,500,000,000,000.00.

    you still dont see how stupid this comment is. what is your definition of poor? but since you asked, there are 8 million millionaires in the US. and the most billionaires of any country.

    you cant compared #of (super) rich compared to #of (poverty)poor. how about the people inbetween? I dont have a million dollars but I live very comfortably here in the evil USA. I am no where near poor, yet not close to being a millionaire either.

    All I am saying if you take in account our huge deficit which is growing as we speak with the facts that we import way more than we export, we have 14 million people not working, 37 million people living in poverty which is by US standards (look it up) millions of people without healthcare and millions who can not afford higher education, we really don't look that rich or good in my opinion. I just think we can do much better than that. I know we are a very rich country but that seems to be slipping away from us.

    If you subtract our 8.6 trillion dollar deficit from the $12,500,000,000,000.00 GDP that leaves about 3.9 trillion dollars left. However I'm really not sure if that is considered because I don't know where you got the GDP figure from and I don't have time to look it up right now but I will.
    "...believe in lies...to get by...it's divine...whoa...oh, you know what its like..."
  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159
    jlew24asu wrote:
    are you talking about in the last few months? because before that this country went through the biggest housing boom of all time. I would say more and more people can afford homes instead of fewer an fewer.

    http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/07/real_estate/buying_selling/housing_affordability/index.htm

    http://realestate.msn.com/buying/Articlenewhome.aspx?cp-documentid=338165

    The only reason why more americans were buying homes is because of interest-only and negative amortization loans, which should really be illegal. As you can see in the second link, foreclosures went up 45% thanks to these types of loans, which rely heavily on anticipated equity and a borrower's ability to make payments for up to 40 years.

    Even in crappy places to live like Utah, the cost of living is soaring out of control.

    http://media.www.utahstatesman.com/media/storage/paper243/news/2001/10/22/CampusNews/Housing.Cost.Minimum.Wage.Gap.Increase-129924.shtml?sourcedomain=www.utahstatesman.com&MIIHost=media.collegepublisher.com
    jlew wrote:
    people keep throwing this word around. does anyone know the poverty level? my grandma is almost considered poverty level and is doing just fine. when people see "living in poverty" they think it means they are living in the street

    Poverty level in the states is gauged on a comparative level. It's gauged in terms of wealth distribution. People are not living on the street, but their income in terms of what they should be making had the gaps in income remained constant is the issue.

    An article from the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis Review

    http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/review/05/05/Wheeler.pdf

    Here is an excerpt from the article:
    The unionization rates enters negatively in 34 of 36 instances. Such a result, of course, reinforces the general view established in the inequality literature that the decline in union activity in the United States has been a major element in the rise of earnings disparity

    In other words, because workers in the United States are losing the protection of organized labor, business owners have taken the liberty to exploit them by steadily increasing the wage gaps over the years.

    Also:

    http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

    The distribution of wealth has been shifting towards the top 20% year after year. So, with the cost of owning a home already being out of reach for a growing number of people who are not in that top 20%, it will be a matter of time before they are homeless.

    maybe soon we will have some healthcare reform in this country. but our system definitely protects the elderly. and offers some benefit to most people. it should be noted that the US government does do something regarding healthcare. as opposed to nothing. big difference

    The issue is not the elderly, however. The issue is families with children.

    It's true that the US economy is flourishing, but it is flourishing in the same way that the economy of the southern states flourished during the slave era. Saying that your grandmother is doing OK because she's not living on the street is like saying that black slaves were doing OK because they weren't living in the African jungle -at least their meals were prepared instead of having to be hunted and dragged back to the village.
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