Its Time To talk About Water...

MakingWaves · October 2007

jlew24asu wrote:

haha yea I know. I was wondering if you or anyone knows why.

I agree but it seems pointless to not do it anyway. oceans are rather large :-) and we're surrounded by them. which makes me think, how does Hawaii get fresh water?

My bad, I don't really know how to explain it but this site i went to does a good job. http://www.coastal.ca.gov/desalrpt/dchap1.html

And that is a very good question about hawaii. Now i have to go find out the answer to that.

MakingWaves · October 2007

MakingWaves wrote:

My bad, I don't really know how to explain it but this site i went to does a good job. http://www.coastal.ca.gov/desalrpt/dchap1.html

And that is a very good question about hawaii. Now i have to go find out the answer to that.

And the answer is ground water but it seems that could become a big problem in about 20 years.

jlew24asu · October 2007

MakingWaves wrote:

http://www.coastal.ca.gov/desalrpt/dchap1.html

cool, thanks. thats a very good site. and quite encouraging. seems like we are already pretty good desalination and RO. now we just need to collaborate with those in the middle east and try to find ways to reduce the amount of energy and costs associated with the process.

when push comes to shove, I'm confident we can figure it out.

hippiemom · October 2007

Way too long to reprint here ....

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/21/magazine/21water-t.html

decides2dream · October 2007

surferdude wrote:

We should be smarter with water just like we should be smarter with every scarce resource.

ain't that the truth!

this is yet another one of those issues that is just so far-reaching and into ALL areas of life. poison the water, poison the world. it's a shmae that far too much that is cost-effective for the bottom-line, is NOT cost-effective for the earth. there has to be a better balance!

Yoyoyo · October 2007

Jeanie wrote:

No Scott. It's not all in my head. I have very real concerns about the efficacy and efficiency of recycled water. My main one being that like everything else even if the plan starts out as a government initiative it will fast become privatised and I'm sorry but given the track record of these private companies when it comes to infrastructure and the public good, not to mention successive governments continual refusal to hold private companies accountable for the havoc they wreak I really have NO CONFIDENCE in the recycled water program as it has been presented to me at this time.

Now if someone wanted to present a plan that was to be kept in public hands, for recycled water that WASN'T added to the drinking water, I might reconsider. But until such times as we can be 100% certain that there will be no side effects or ill health from this process then I cannot get behind the plan as it stands..

Where do you get your drinking water from now? Fact of the matter is most of the water consumed is in fact "recycled water", if it comes from a river, aquifer or lake it is recycled. Many rivers are used as a potable water source for towns and cities AS WELL as a dumping ground for waste. Drinking water is treated, but for a very large % of the population they are only one broken chlorine injector away from drinking river water that can be loaded with E-coli found in cow shit run off.

The only "clean" water you will find comes out of an RO unit or through condensation. Most bottled waters have chlorine injected to kill the bugs!

Yoyoyo · October 2007

jlew24asu wrote:

haha yea I know. I was wondering if you or anyone knows why.

I agree but it seems pointless to not do it anyway. oceans are rather large :-) and we're surrounded by them. which makes me think, how does Hawaii get fresh water?

Salt water is a solution of both salt and water. One way to get salt out of solution is to boil the water and capture the evaporation through condensation. The problem with this method is, it takes a shit ton of energy to boil off enough water for consumption and it takes more energy to force the evaporated vapor to condense. Reverse osmosis is another method. It is a system of having a very thin membrane and two different concentrations of water on both sides of this membrane. Pressure is exerted on the highly concentrated water(salt water) forcing it through the membrane to the less concentrated membrane leaving the salt molecules behind. The problem with this method is those membrane cartridges are very expensive and do not last very long. As well the amount of pressure required is very large and it takes alot of energy to pressurize the one side of the system.

Jeanie · October 2007

Mestophar wrote:

Where do you get your drinking water from now? Fact of the matter is most of the water consumed is in fact "recycled water", if it comes from a river, aquifer or lake it is recycled. Many rivers are used as a potable water source for towns and cities AS WELL as a dumping ground for waste. Drinking water is treated, but for a very large % of the population they are only one broken chlorine injector away from drinking river water that can be loaded with E-coli found in cow shit run off.

The only "clean" water you will find comes out of an RO unit or through condensation. Most bottled waters have chlorine injected to kill the bugs!

http://www.melbwater.com.au/content/publications/fact_sheets/water/protecting_melbournes_water_catchments.asp?bhcp=1

When I say recycled water I am talking of two things.
1) the grey water we recycle on our properties and how it can be better utilized. We meaning us here in Australia.
2) in terms of drinking recycled water, I'm referring to the government plan to treat effluent with the process of reverse osmosis and then pump it into our natural water supply.

I am not unaware of the current situation with regard to "natural" water in this country. But I do live in a state with one of the cleanest drinking water supplies in the world all of which comes from water catchments managed very strictly to ensure the quality of the water. Actually I'd go so far as to say that the water is cleaner in the catchments than it is by the time it makes it to my glass, simply because of the old gal pipes it travels through just at this end.

We have the water resources that we have. It seems pointless to me to keep trying to find ways to make MORE water when we haven't mastered the art of utilizing efficiently the water that we already have.

And I'm not drinking effluent that has been throught the process of reverse osmosis and added to the natural supply until all other avenues have been exhausted AND for all the reasons I previously posted in this thread.

Yoyoyo · October 2007

Your water tested 3 times to have Ecoli in it this year.

Jeanie · October 2007

Mestophar wrote:

Your water tested 3 times to have Ecoli in it this year.

Yep.

So what?

Yoyoyo · October 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Yep.

So what?

Ecoli comes from poop. You are drinking poop water. Recycled grey water put through an RO system would have less poop in it than the stuff your drinking now.

jlew24asu · October 2007

Mestophar wrote:

Salt water is a solution of both salt and water. One way to get salt out of solution is to boil the water and capture the evaporation through condensation. The problem with this method is, it takes a shit ton of energy to boil off enough water for consumption and it takes more energy to force the evaporated vapor to condense. Reverse osmosis is another method. It is a system of having a very thin membrane and two different concentrations of water on both sides of this membrane. Pressure is exerted on the highly concentrated water(salt water) forcing it through the membrane to the less concentrated membrane leaving the salt molecules behind. The problem with this method is those membrane cartridges are very expensive and do not last very long. As well the amount of pressure required is very large and it takes alot of energy to pressurize the one side of the system.

hmmm so what your telling me is Salt water is a solution of both salt and water. thats very interesting. :rolleyes:

not sure if I can take the rest of your post seriously but you've explained a process that undoubtedly can be improved. hopefully it will

Jeanie · October 2007

Mestophar wrote:

Ecoli comes from poop. You are drinking poop water. Recycled grey water put through an RO system would have less poop in it than the stuff your drinking now.

Where did I say I was drinking tap water?

I aint drinking shit.

And you seem to have completely missed the point. But then I'm starting to understand that about you.

onelongsong · October 2007

Truthmonger wrote:

Its disappearing like crazy, yet we use it like there's no fucking tomorrow (at least here in N. America). I don't wanna get into a debate about whether its a natural phenomenon or a man-made dilemma. That's moot at this point. But i do wanna discuss why current water conservation efforts are so laughable.

Consider : When are we going to SERIOUSLY curtail our use of water ? When will govt's stop allowing explosive growth in areas that are already short on water - especially in the U.S.? Will it ever reach the point of municipalities rationing water to its citizens ? If citizens of a particular jurisdiction are irresponsible with this resource, is it fair for such people to then go knocking on the doors of other jurisdictions to ask for more ?

DUDE; you have no idea about the mess we're about to enter. look at las vegas. fountains all over yet they don't have water. vegas is trying to take water from up north and is putting in a pipeline.

here's my question:
our fish and game departments regulate the size of the herds based on the resourses and habitat available. if they don't; ALL the animals will starve.
so why can't we regulate growth in cities and states? in the past; arizona and nevada sold water to california. now those states have grown and need that water so california cannot support it's population. that's why there's a big push in california to distill sea water.

too bad it's so late. i've got a lot of information on this subject. once again; you know the water situation. why do you need the government to tell you to conserve? people are plain stupid (not referring to you). again, look at vegas. people know they have a water problem yet they're building houses like there's no tomorrow. if you know there's no water; why are you building there?

Yoyoyo · October 2007

jlew24asu wrote:

hmmm so what your telling me is Salt water is a solution of both salt and water. thats very interesting. :rolleyes:

not sure if I can take the rest of your post seriously but you've explained a process that undoubtedly can be improved. hopefully it will

Salt water being a solution is the underlying principle of the problem... You asked.

Scientists from every century of human existence have been trying to remove salt from water and have found no efficient way of doing so. It really has been at the top of scientific matters, and if a breakthrough were found would change the course of human existence forever. But nothing has been found... How many people have died from thirst while floating on top of a gigantic mass of water?

onelongsong · October 2007

MakingWaves wrote:

And the answer is ground water but it seems that could become a big problem in about 20 years.

hello??? wells are being condemned constantly. the chemicals we've used over the last 100 years have seeped into the aquifer. most of the wells in my area have been condemned. that's why i'm outta here.

Jeanie · October 2007

From UNESCO

http://www.unesco.org/water/news/newsletter/117.shtml

DID YOU KNOW...? FACTS AND FIGURES ABOUT WATER AND SALINIZATION/DESALINATION

It is estimated that some 30% of the world's irrigated areas suffers from salinity problems and remediation is seen to be very costly.

Poor drainage and irrigation practices have led to waterlogging and salinization of about 10% of the world's irrigated lands, thereby reducing productivity.

There are significant areas of the globe where serious soil and groundwater salinization are present or have developed as a result of:
- rising groundwater tables, associated with the introduction of inefficient irrigation with imported surface water in areas of inadequate natural drainage
- natural salinity having been mobilized from the landscape, consequent upon vegetation clearing for farming development with increased rates of groundwater recharge
- excessive disturbance of natural groundwater salinity through uncontrolled well construction and pumping.

Waterlogging and salinization in large-scale irrigation projects are often the result of unavailable drainage infrastructure, which was not included in the engineering design in order to make projects look economically more attractive. These problems are generally associated with large-scale irrigation development under arid and semi-arid conditions, as in the Indus (Pakistan), the Tigris-Euphrates (Middle East) and the Nile (eastern Africa) river basins. The solutions to these problems are known, but their implementation is costly.

With population growth and concerns about water scarcity increasing, several countries, especially in the Middle East region, are developing desalination plants to convert saline water (e.g. sea-water, brackish water or treated wastewater) into freshwater.

The global market for desalination currently stands at about US $35 billion annually and could double over the next 15 years.

2002 there were about 12,500 desalination plants around the world in 120 countries. They produce some 14 million m³/day of freshwater, which is less than 1% of total world consumption.

The most important users of desalinated water are in the Middle East, (mainly Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar and Bahrain), which uses about 70% of worldwide capacity; and in North Africa (mainly Libya and Algeria), which uses about 6% of worldwide capacity.

Among industrialized countries, the United States is one of the most important users of desalinated water (6.5%), especially in California and parts of Florida.

Yoyoyo · October 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Where did I say I was drinking tap water?

I aint drinking shit.

And you seem to have completely missed the point. But then I'm starting to understand that about you.

You call it fresh drinking water... and refer to the creek water as not fit for human consumption, where the hauled water you get at the bush place is.

Yoyoyo · October 2007

onelongsong wrote:

hello??? wells are being condemned constantly. the chemicals we've used over the last 100 years have seeped into the aquifer. most of the wells in my area have been condemned. that's why i'm outta here.

Good point. Aquifers that have hundreds of wells tapped into them are being polluted because they are not capped off properly after they lose their water production ability. Many wells are actually found below grade level so that any and all runoff goes down into the underground streams. More poop going into our waters sources.

onelongsong · October 2007

Scubascott wrote:

The fear of recycled water is all in your head. I dare you to taste a sample of recycled water and a sample of treated water fresh from the storages and tell me that you can tell the difference. Recycled water is safe as far as I understand. The only potential risk that I've ever heard anyone argue is that some things like hormones might not be destroyed by the treatment process. That's easily fixed with ozone treatment anyway.

I for one, would be very happy to drink recycled sewerage water. . . and I'm a microbiologist . It makes far more sense to recycle water in the cites than to try to send it to agricultural areas. I'd need to see some numbers to be sure, but I can't imagine that it would be more efficient to send recycled water from Sydney or Melbourne to the irrigation areas in the M/D than it would be to keep it in the municipal water system.

As for growing rice and cotton. . . you're probably right, but until there are incentives for farmers to make a living doing something else, they'll continue to do what they can to produce a crop that is worth something.

hi scott. nice to see you. if anyone knows; you do. las vagas is building a pipeline for water so i'll keep you up with it. i think the big problem here is the chemicals that have leached into the aquifer. the coming problem is when the seas enter the cities along the coast and mix with sewage; oil; and chemicals. just as what happend in new orleans. the wells we've been emptying will then re-fill with this toxic water.

Its Time To talk About Water...

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