becos the women around here dont hate me enough already

catefrances wrote:

i never said women weren't complicit. i said our society was predominantly shaped by men.

It's just as much shaped by women, imo. We're all very potent in our choices and we own them.

catefrances wrote:

i just dont reckon that women are in the same positions of power that men are.

Women and men head all of our families. If a woman relinquishes her innate power, she doesn't relinquish the responsibility for her choices. Women raise and teach our children--they hold very much power doing so. They pass on gender roles and stereotypes just as the men do. It may be unspoken and yet the responsibility cannot be avoided from what I see. We are all where we are at, playing into the system, supporting and sustaining it.

catefrances wrote:

that is true. i am certainly the biggest influence in my childrens lives. their father is mostly absent and at best ineffectual anyway. and yet when we enter the bigger world all the best intensions and nongender raising can come to nought. an empowered child c regardless of gender can just as easily become disillusioned when faced with a bigger reality.

That's why its a social and cultural thing. It's individuals times many. We all do things unconsciously all the time as we perpetuate the cycles. Men pay the price for their support of the system, too, and there's just no way I can see that they are responsible and women are not. Women are just as powerful in their each choice.

Jeanie wrote:

So did we get anywhere here?

Just wondering.

Because I just feel like I'm supposed to be quiet because no one is really listening or interested in discussing ways of bringing about any real solutions or practical suggestions to the table.

And to me that would be the most important outcome.

Real suggestions, real understanding, real outcomes.

well what do you suggest jeanie.

This is pretty cool...

http://www.filecabi.net/video/hugs.html

-

catefrances wrote:

well what do you suggest jeanie.

Well I don't know cate. That's my point. I don't know what the answer is, and feel that some unemotive, sensible discussion might open the topic to suggestions, ideas and greater understanding.

I would like to see more information and education available to girls and women about how to recognize and avoid abusive relationships. I would like to see the objectification and the whole madonna/whore complex thing society has got going on with women completely eradicated. I can dream can't I?

I would like to see women raise more sensitive men and more self confident women. I'd like men to be more able to have actual conversations with their daughters, about what to avoid when it comes to men, while still letting a girl feel that her blossoming sexuality will not lose her Daddy's love. I'd like to see fathers stop patting their sons on the back and expecting them to treat sex as a conquest.
I'd really like parents to stop with the good girl/bad girl, good boy/bad boy routine they seem to have going on. I do realize that a lot of this is because of fears that parents have for their children. But raising happy, confident children, who are well educated in their ability to communicate with the opposite sex, would be a great start. AND I think that needs to be happening particularly in adolescence, but before it, in preparation for it would be better. Too late to expect easy, healthy, communication once the hormones kick in.
I would like to see more information available to men about what constitutes violent, controlling and abusive behaviour and how not to be a perpertrator.

I don't know what kinds of things men would see as important to them if they are the victims of domestic violence. I'll leave that to them to bring forward.

What I would like to see is an end to the mudslinging.

Jeanie wrote:

I can't download this because of the dial up Roland, but I do know the free hugs campaign and the song that came with it. And I think it's awesome.
And it started right here in Oz. A very valuable lesson for all to learn and a great way to go into the world! MORE HUGS!!

I like the simplicity of the concept.

I'd trade in my high speed for dial up anytime to hang out down there...I'd probably go diving for a solid week or two then explore inland for some wanton debauchery and pub prawns

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

I like the simplicity of the concept.

I'd trade in my high speed for dial up anytime to hang out down there...I'd probably go diving for a solid week or two then explore inland for some wanton debauchery and pub prawns

It's such a fantastic idea. I guess you didn't get to see the Chasers War on Everything send up of it? Also very uplifting, because it was so very fucking funny!! I think one of the signs read "FREE ROOTS"

Anyway, I've got broadband on the way Roland, BUT you my friend, are welcome anytime for PRAWNS and I guess we could muster up some debauchery!!! But you're on your own for the diving!!

So in the famous words of Erin McNaught, "Where the bloody hell are ya?"

catefrances wrote:

i'm sorry angelica but i vehemently disagree with you on this. tell me something please. who makes the laws? how many woman helped draft the constitution of the united states of america? how many woman were involved in drafting the australian constitution? does canada have a constitution? how many woman were involved in drafting it? how many woman are involved in maintaining the integrity of these constitutions? in the most free and democratic nation of earth(supposedly) how many woman have been voted into the top job? what is the percentage of woman running transnational companies? what is the percentage of women in charge of the media? what is the percentage of woman raising children? what is the percentage of woman employed in the so called nurturing vocations of nursing and teaching? exactly what price do men pay by maintaining a status quo in their favour?
i get tired of the illusion that if i raise my daughters to be powerful women, that is all that is required. the world is run by men. always has and always will be. unless we kill them all and just keep a breeding stock i cant see it changing.
yes it's a cultural thing. that was never in debate. but to suggest that women are just as powerful in their choices as men are, is delusional.

Fair enough if you see things differently. I understand that which is why I disagreed at the beginning of this line of discussion.

Women and men are equal and yet different. Women relinquish their equal power in each day. They vote for male figures, they work under them, they raise them how they see fit. They take great measures to attract these males, marry them, keep them, bear their children, etc. They take these actions in each day because they receive a payoff. I understand most women are unconscious of these dynamics and of the unconscious choices they make in each day, and that's exactly what Ahnimus refers to. We fit these roles that have been ascribed to us. We accept them and perpetuate them.

Again: we can relinquish our control and our power, yet we cannot relinquish our responsibility. No matter what our choices, we will get exactly what we are willing to accept. And when we imagine that the responsibility for our choices is on another person, we disempower ourselves. We reject our own power. We're each 100% responsible for our choices and our life. And when we recognize this, we own and wield that power consciously.

I personally don't support women rejecting their own power. I can't consciously play a part of the cycles. I understand why we do it. I do it myself to varying degrees and have done so much more in the past. and as I uncover these degrees, I endeavor to reclaim my own birthright and my power. It is exactly by our handing over of our power that we send very potent and powerful messages to men all the time. For example, linguistically speaking, when we speak in such terms, of our lack of power, these words are recognized by those in power in the corporations and in other positions of power--those with the power over our heads--we open our mouths and reveal we are not willing to accept roles that radiate power. It's all around us.

baraka wrote:

This mindset, though, makes you the victim. Personally, I'm not interested in being a victim. I think this is a bad cycle some tend to get caught up in and, therefor fulfill said stereotypes. For example, the profession I'm in is pretty much male dominated. However, I never focus on this fact and interestingly, I have been paid the same, if not more, than my male co-workers. That's because I did not expect anything less.

This doesn't negate the fact society is still a bit male dominated.

For sure society is male dominated. I hope more people focus on effectively breaking these cycles, not fueling them. I choose to support equality, and balance, which is what I believe Ahnimus is calling for as well, on all levels.