if you are told lies to sign a contract, how is it valid??

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  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    dg1979us wrote:
    But it is still just a guess. Im not saying you wouldnt be right. But what happens when a true war of necessity comes along and we have several thousand soldiers decide it is illegal and not fight?

    what does your knowledge of americans tell you? ... in a time of a righteous war - will they choose to fight or run?
  • dg1979us
    dg1979us Posts: 568
    polaris wrote:
    what does your knowledge of americans tell you? ... in a time of a righteous war - will they choose to fight or run?


    Most likely fight, but you are basing that off of generations past. Even today, most of the war supporters have not sacrificed a bit for this war. Honestly, there is no point getting into this, because neither of us can prove a hypothetical for one, and for 2, I actually dont disagree with you, I just dont think you can really take that chance when planning a war.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    dg1979us wrote:
    ANd thats fine, I certainly respect him acting on his beliefs. But, that still doesnt prove the war is illegal, which is basically the cruxt to all of this.

    And maybe I shouldnt have used the phrase "have to" look at it as being legal, but instead the word "should".

    How do you think we or anyone can prove this war is illegal in the courts, realistically?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • dg1979us
    dg1979us Posts: 568
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    How do you think we or anyone can prove this war is illegal in the courts, realistically?


    There in lies the problem, I dont discount that it might be next to impossible. But still, you are more or lessing leaving it up to the invidual troops to decide if you think they should get out of their committment because they think it is illegal. And generally speaking, I dont see how a military can effectively operate that way.
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    dg1979us wrote:
    Most likely fight, but you are basing that off of generations past. Even today, most of the war supporters have not sacrificed a bit for this war. Honestly, there is no point getting into this, because neither of us can prove a hypothetical for one, and for 2, I actually dont disagree with you, I just dont think you can really take that chance when planning a war.

    the only thing you need to consider is how many will quit during the time of a just war if given that option (not imprisonment as punishment) ...

    we can speculate that enrollment will go up but even if it didn't - the way to judge your numbers is simply by determining how many will quit ...
  • dg1979us
    dg1979us Posts: 568
    polaris wrote:
    the only thing you need to consider is how many will quit during the time of a just war if given that option (not imprisonment as punishment) ...

    we can speculate that enrollment will go up but even if it didn't - the way to judge your numbers is simply by determining how many will quit ...


    But you cant determine that until that policy is put in place. Meaning, you are going to be planning at least one war before you know the answer to your question.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    dg1979us wrote:
    There in lies the problem, I dont discount that it might be next to impossible. But still, you are more or lessing leaving it up to the invidual troops to decide if you think they should get out of their committment because they think it is illegal. And generally speaking, I dont see how a military can effectively operate that way.

    But they are doing all they can realistically do. What do you do when there's no way out and you strongly object to what you're being asked to do?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • 1970RR
    1970RR Posts: 281
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    How do you think we or anyone can prove this war is illegal in the courts, realistically?
    Maybe not illegal, but unconstitutional? The power to "declare war" rests with congress alone and too my knowledge, they have never issued a formal declaration of war.
    How is military action permitted without this declaration?
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    1970RR wrote:
    Maybe not illegal, but unconstitutional? The power to "declare war" rests with congress alone and too my knowledge, they have never issued a formal declaration of war.
    How is military action permitted without this declaration?

    I've wondered that as well. It doesn't get brought up enough.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • dg1979us
    dg1979us Posts: 568
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    But they are doing all they can realistically do. What do you do when there's no way out and you strongly object to what you're being asked to do?

    I guess you do what they are doing. That is a personal decision for them and if they think the penalty is worth their convictions then more power to them, I certainly cant disrespect that.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    dg1979us wrote:
    I guess you do what they are doing. That is a personal decision for them and if they think the penalty is worth their convictions then more power to them, I certainly cant disrespect that.

    Me either. The amount of disrespect I've read for these guys is unbelievable.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • decides2dream
    decides2dream Posts: 14,977
    dg1979us wrote:
    I guess you do what they are doing. That is a personal decision for them and if they think the penalty is worth their convictions then more power to them, I certainly cant disrespect that.


    absolutely!
    anyone who stands behind their convictions and willing accepts the consequences of their choices/actions...nothing but respect for that. far too few in any realm actually stand behind their convictions to such a degree so i too fail to see how one could disrespect such.
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


    I am myself like you somehow


  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Here is an interesting article in regard to the Geneva POW Convention and American Federal law. There is a protocol in American federal law that must abide by the Geneva Convention. I'm googling more about that relationship now.
    http://www.counterpunch.org/vanbergen01182005.html
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Now here's some good reading. This link provides many links that question the legality of the US-led invasion on Iraq. Most of them seem to be from 2003.

    http://www.robincmiller.com/ir-legal.htm
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,800
    What you should really be doing is working really hard to convince people not to enlist....not trying to harp about it being illegal or they were mislead (of which you will never convince more than a handful of people...myself included and I oppose war). If we could stop people from enlisting, then it would be a lot more difficult to conduct a war, huh?
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    know1 wrote:
    What you should really be doing is working really hard to convince people not to enlist....not trying to harp about it being illegal or they were mislead (of which you will never convince more than a handful of people...myself included and I oppose war). If we could stop people from enlisting, then it would be a lot more difficult to conduct a war, huh?

    I don't think there's anything wrong with men and women wanting to serve our country in a military role. I'm not a pacifist. We are a safer nation served honorably by our Armed Forces whether you want to believe that or not.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    know1 wrote:
    What you should really be doing is working really hard to convince people not to enlist....not trying to harp about it being illegal or they were mislead (of which you will never convince more than a handful of people...myself included and I oppose war). If we could stop people from enlisting, then it would be a lot more difficult to conduct a war, huh?
    ...and I'm not "harping" about the illegality of Iraq, and the chain of command having broken down. I believe the focus that Watada has chosen is the honorable one in terms of the way our soldiers could be considering this Iraq conflict and the roles they play in it.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • El_Kabong
    El_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    Staceb10 wrote:
    You have to be able to prove fraud or coercion to get them to enlist. As soon as someone can do that then they can get the contract voided.

    what about this?
    http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=4462729&postcount=33

    Staceb10 wrote:
    But let me ask you this..do you honestly believe that people that enlist don't realize that if we go to war they would have to fight? That's just ridiculous.


    no, but it seems like fraud to me, and it seems like if someone fraudulently gets you to sign a contract there should be some recourse
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • El_Kabong
    El_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    know1 wrote:
    (I'm still waiting to hear what lies are told and whether they are told by all recruiters...)


    really?? all you had to do was read post #6 to find at least one of the answers...
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • El_Kabong
    El_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    dg1979us wrote:
    I understand that. But who has declared Iraq illegal? Just because they "think" it is illegal doesnt make it so (though I agree with them). They need to go to court and prove that.


    i think the un did, didn't they? does it really matter? we pulled out of the international criminal court...we broke international law in this, as we have many times...we acted unilateraly. we act like a rogue nation, like the big kid on the block who can do what he wants b/c he has the force
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way

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