like what? ... so, you don't get paid the rest of your salary ... i'm sure the soldiers don't mind facing relative penalties ... but imprisonment? ... now, we're talking extortion in a way ...
either way - what's the deal about living in a free country? ... what kind of system punishes a person for not wanting to do what is immoral?
I said the military penalties are more harsh, but the idea that you can walk away from any job at will with no penalty is not accurate at all. Most of your typical jobs yes, but there are plenty of jobs with contracts involved that limit your ability to just quit and go on your way.
You sign in agreement with what's on the paper... not what you're verbally told
bottomline...i believe this is the truth. thus why there ARE written contracts, so that one has a tangible copy of said agreement, no matter what verbal comments/promises may or may not be shared. caveat emptor.
I said the military penalties are more harsh, but the idea that you can walk away from any job at will with no penalty is not accurate at all. Most of your typical jobs yes, but there are plenty of jobs with contracts involved that limit your ability to just quit and go on your way.
name me one job that would penalize you for quitting on moral grounds? ... all those companies would just be happy you didn't tell the media ...
i fail to see how saying they signed voluntarily for the army means do whatever they are told regardless ...
just makes no sense ... you can quit any job in this world why can't you quit the army especially when you realize the implications of what you are being told to do ...
mind boggling reasoning
If you have a contract, they can't really force you to perform, but the employer would be in an actionable position if you are in breach.
When you enlist, you agree to the Military's terms, which are obviously more strict.
Were they lies? As someone else said, just because someone on here alleges that lies are being told, does not make it true.
I've been trying to make the point on this thread that the onus of guilt in regard to military enlistment and the contract isn't on the recruiters and their tactics, it is on the legality of the war itself.
name me one job that would penalize you for quitting on moral grounds? ... all those companies would just be happy you didn't tell the media ...
Dude, if you sign a contract with a company, and you dont fulfill your committment, you can either be sued, forced to pay back a possible signing bonus, not be allowed to work for a competitor for so many years, etc etc. What the hell is the purpose of a contract if they can be opted out of at any given time?
I've been trying to make the point on this thread that the onus of guilt military enlistments to the contract isn't on the recruiters and their tactics, it is on the legality of the war itself.
The thread title asks specifically about lies told to sign a contract. That has nothing to do whether this war was legal or not. Besides the legality of the war means nothing to whether there were lies told in the recruiting process.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
You have to be able to prove fraud or coercion to get them to enlist. As soon as someone can do that then they can get the contract voided.
But let me ask you this..do you honestly believe that people that enlist don't realize that if we go to war they would have to fight? That's just ridiculous.
name me one job that would penalize you for quitting on moral grounds? ... all those companies would just be happy you didn't tell the media ...
if nothing else, i think we all could be in agreement that being in the military is NOT at all like a 'typical job'...so such comparisions not quite on par. i would think the 'moral grounds' should come BEFORE enlisting, not after...although i am sure it is impossible to truly imagine the horrors of being involved in a war, but nonetheless.....especially with a volunteer army, i think it difficult at best to argue as such.
and..it all depends on what kind of contract one signs, for any job...how detailed, what's involved, etc, etc...there's no saying w/o details of contracts......
if nothing else, i think we all could be in agreement that being in the military is NOT at all like a 'typical job'...so such comparisions not quite on par. i would think the 'moral grounds' should come BEFORE enlisting, not after...although i am sure it is impossible to truly imagine the horrors of being involved in a war, but nonetheless.....especially with a volunteer army, i think it difficult at best to argue as such.
and..it all depends on what kind of contract one signs, for any job...how detailed, what's involved, etc, etc...there's no saying w/o details of contracts......
Well the "moral grounds" argument is pretty much thrown out the window for anyone who has enlisted in the last 4 or 5 years anyway, because they knew they were going to be headed to war. The guys that have been the military longer could make that case, but it would be a lot more difficult to prove they were lied to since their enlistment was further back.
Dude, if you sign a contract with a company, and you dont fulfill your committment, you can either be sued, forced to pay back a possible signing bonus, not be allowed to work for a competitor for so many years, etc etc. What the hell is the purpose of a contract if they can be opted out of at any given time?
pls answer the question - name one job where if you guit for moral reasons they would punish you? ... aside from the standard loss of remaining pay, etc ...
a contract is based on a mutually agreed understanding ... no one will sign a contract that says - u will be asked to shoot pregnant women and babies in the head ... so, using fine print and semantics just doesn't cut it ...
take for example waivers people sign when going whitewater rafting ... if you hurt yourself during the course of the event - you can STILL sue ... the waiver means nothing in court ...
i fail to see how saying they signed voluntarily for the army means do whatever they are told regardless ...
just makes no sense ... you can quit any job in this world why can't you quit the army especially when you realize the implications of what you are being told to do ...
mind boggling reasoning
They didn't just sign an employment contract. They enlisted in the Military. Anyone with an IQ above 70 should be able to comprehend what the military requires when you join. The point is that the US Government didn't force them into the military..they JOINED on their own.
They didn't just sign an employment contract. They enlisted in the Military. Anyone with an IQ above 70 should be able to comprehend what the military requires when you join. The point is that the US Government didn't force them into the military..they JOINED on their own.
I honestly don't even remember reading and signing that contract at 16. I looked it up today and it only looks vaguely familiar.
pls answer the question - name one job where if you guit for moral reasons they would punish you? ... aside from the standard loss of remaining pay, etc ...
a contract is based on a mutually agreed understanding ... no one will sign a contract that says - u will be asked to shoot pregnant women and babies in the head ... so, using fine print and semantics just doesn't cut it ...
take for example waivers people sign when going whitewater rafting ... if you hurt yourself during the course of the event - you can STILL sue ... the waiver means nothing in court ...
There are tons. If I sign a contract to build a house, and quit halfway through, I can be sued for breach of contract. There are tons of examples. And shooting a pregnant woman is against the law, therefore an invalid contract to begin with. And the whitewater rafting example isnt about employment, it is about entertainment so it doesnt fit.
But again, what moral reasons are you talking about? If you go sign up for the military today not knowing that you have a 99% chance of getting sent to war, and then you want to quit once you are deployed is that not really your fault for signing up? And I am not for this war, and am not suggesting our troops should be used carelessly. But, you have to keep in mind at this stage especially, that those signing up know they are going to war before they sign up.
There are tons. If I sign a contract to build a house, and quit halfway through, I can be sued for breach of contract. There are tons of examples. And shooting a pregnant woman is against the law, therefore an invalid contract to begin with. And the whitewater rafting example isnt about employment, it is about entertainment so it doesnt fit.
But again, what moral reasons are you talking about? If you go sign up for the military today not knowing that you have a 99% chance of getting sent to war, and then you want to quit once you are deployed is that not really your fault for signing up? And I am not for this war, and am not suggesting our troops should be used carelessly. But, you have to keep in mind at this stage especially, that those signing up know they are going to war before they sign up.
again - you aren't answering the question ... if you worked for a mining company and they told you to lie about whether they are performing illegal practices - you CAN quit ... they'll just be happy that you keep quiet ...
a waiver is a form of a contract ...
i'm not talking about people who are quitting because they don't want to serve ... i'm talking about people who went over there - and decided what they were doing was wrong ... to the iraqi people and to the american public ... this war has been proven to be faulty in all aspects ... no matter how you rationalize it - it is wrong ... many have suffered because of the will of a few men ... no person should have to support that whether with their lives or someone else'
again - you aren't answering the question ... if you worked for a mining company and they told you to lie about whether they are performing illegal practices - you CAN quit ... they'll just be happy that you keep quiet ...
a waiver is a form of a contract ...
i'm not talking about people who are quitting because they don't want to serve ... i'm talking about people who went over there - and decided what they were doing was wrong ... to the iraqi people and to the american public ... this war has been proven to be faulty in all aspects ... no matter how you rationalize it - it is wrong ... many have suffered because of the will of a few men ... no person should have to support that whether with their lives or someone else'
But you have to prove what the military is doing is illegal before you can quit, am I not right? And you didnt ask the question based around legalities, you asked it based around morals. Of course you dont have to do anything illegal just because it is in a contract, I thought we understood that as a given.
And I just said I am not for this war, so not sure what you think I am rationalizing. But I just dont see how you can accept someone breaching a contract because of the war, when they knew they were going to war when signing up.
And like someone else mentioned, like it or not, the military is not a typical job. There is no way the military could stage any excercises, whether you thiknk just or not, if they could not depend on the troops staying involved.
again - you aren't answering the question ... if you worked for a mining company and they told you to lie about whether they are performing illegal practices - you CAN quit ... they'll just be happy that you keep quiet ...
a waiver is a form of a contract ...
i'm not talking about people who are quitting because they don't want to serve ... i'm talking about people who went over there - and decided what they were doing was wrong ... to the iraqi people and to the american public ... this war has been proven to be faulty in all aspects ... no matter how you rationalize it - it is wrong ... many have suffered because of the will of a few men ... no person should have to support that whether with their lives or someone else'
they don't have to...they can quit, and sadly yes...suffer the consequences. so if that means prision time, then there it is. i give a lot of credit to those who sign up for the military, for whatever personal reasons they choose b/c i KNOW it is not something i could do. i have many relatives who have, and luckily never served during wartime...i had a father serve in WW2, drafted. however, when one willingly enters into a contract....if ya change your mind down the road....then you deal with whatever consequences that are outlined in said contract if it is broken. it doesn't matter if NO other contract in the world has the same rules...it's the military, it IS going to be different...and thus, different rules. i mean, it's war...what would one expect? agreed, it's an unjust war...but i don't believe anywhere in any contract that would give the soldier the right to decide if the war they participate in is unjust or just...and if they can or will participate. that's why they have contracts in the first place. bottomline, if one joins not realizing there may be times they will do things they don't want to...might feel wrong about.....etc.....i'd say, don't join the military in the first place. me, i can't imagine ever feeling *right* about killing anyone, so yea...i couldn't do it even if somehow i felt a just war, or at the very least...i would not voluntarily join.....
again - you aren't answering the question ... if you worked for a mining company and they told you to lie about whether they are performing illegal practices - you CAN quit ... they'll just be happy that you keep quiet ...
a waiver is a form of a contract ...
i'm not talking about people who are quitting because they don't want to serve ... i'm talking about people who went over there - and decided what they were doing was wrong ... to the iraqi people and to the american public ... this war has been proven to be faulty in all aspects ... no matter how you rationalize it - it is wrong ... many have suffered because of the will of a few men ... no person should have to support that whether with their lives or someone else'
Do people sign contracts to work for mining companies?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
But you have to prove what the military is doing is illegal before you can quit, am I not right? And you didnt ask the question based around legalities, you asked it based around morals. Of course you dont have to do anything illegal just because it is in a contract, I thought we understood that as a given.
And I just said I am not for this war, so not sure what you think I am rationalizing. But I just dont see how you can accept someone breaching a contract because of the war, when they knew they were going to war when signing up.
And like someone else mentioned, like it or not, the military is not a typical job. There is no way the military could stage any excercises, whether you thiknk just or not, if they could not depend on the troops staying involved.
there is more than enough proof of that to go around ...
i never said you are for or against this war - i am just debating my position that soldiers should be allowed to break a contract without imprisonment being the punishment ... how many of these so-called deserters are doing it because they didn't think they'd get sent to a war-zone??
i just don't accept the reasoning that just because i soldier volunteered into the army - he isn't allowed out ...
they don't have to...they can quit, and sadly yes...suffer the consequences. so if that means prision time, then there it is. i give a lot of credit to those who sign up for the military, for whatever personal reasons they choose b/c i KNOW it is not something i could do. i have many relatives who have, and luckily never served during wartime...i had a father serve in WW2, drafted. however, when one willingly enters into a contract....if ya change your mind down the road....then you deal with whatever consequences that are outlined in said contract if it is broken. it doesn't matter if NO other contract in the world has the same rules...it's the military, it IS going to be different...and thus, different rules. i mean, it's war...what would one expect? agreed, it's an unjust war...but i don't believe anywhere in any contract that would give the soldier the right to decide if the war they participate in is unjust or just...and if they can or will participate. that's why they have contracts in the first place. bottomline, if one joins not realizing there may be times they will do things they don't want to...might feel wrong about.....etc.....i'd say, don't join the military in the first place. me, i can't imagine ever feeling *right* about killing anyone, so yea...i couldn't do it even if somehow i felt a just war, or at the very least...i would not voluntarily join.....
well ... from what i can gather - your point boils down to it is the military therefore they operate with different rules ...
i don't accept that
contracts get broken every day in every form of relationship ... nowhere else (in n. america) is the breach resulting in imprisonment ...
But you have to prove what the military is doing is illegal before you can quit, am I not right? And you didnt ask the question based around legalities, you asked it based around morals. Of course you dont have to do anything illegal just because it is in a contract, I thought we understood that as a given.
And I just said I am not for this war, so not sure what you think I am rationalizing. But I just dont see how you can accept someone breaching a contract because of the war, when they knew they were going to war when signing up.
And like someone else mentioned, like it or not, the military is not a typical job. There is no way the military could stage any excercises, whether you thiknk just or not, if they could not depend on the troops staying involved.
In the case of a few US soldiers contesting the war on those grounds, they are not attempting to quit, they are simply refusing deployment to Iraq on the grounds that it is illegal. They want to continue to serve in the US military.
there is more than enough proof of that to go around ...
i never said you are for or against this war - i am just debating my position that soldiers should be allowed to break a contract without imprisonment being the punishment ... how many of these so-called deserters are doing it because they didn't think they'd get sent to a war-zone??
i just don't accept the reasoning that just because i soldier volunteered into the army - he isn't allowed out ...
You dont have to accept the reasoning, but it is what it is, and you know that going in. Obviously we all want the government to be responsible with our troops, especially since they volunteered to do what many of us wouldnt. But at some point in this, there is some personal responsibility on the troops for fulfilling their committments. You know there is a possibility of going to war when signing up, and in this day you know its almost a certainty.
In the case of a few US soldiers contesting the war on those grounds, they are not attempting to quit, they are simply refusing deployment to Iraq on the grounds that it is illegal. They want to continue to serve in the US military.
But HOW can they contend that it's illegal if it's not?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Yes. After signing the contract (I've got to assume the contract was signed in that time frame somewhere)and taking all the tests, I took the oath at 10 in the morning...technically 10 minutes before my 17th birthday. About 2 hours later I was on a plane to MCRD, San Diego to start boot camp.
In the case of a few US soldiers contesting the war on those grounds, they are not attempting to quit, they are simply refusing deployment to Iraq on the grounds that it is illegal. They want to continue to serve in the US military.
But who has declared it illegal? I respect their opinion, and really dont disagree, but individual soldiers dont get to decide what military operations are and arent illegal.
well ... from what i can gather - your point boils down to it is the military therefore they operate with different rules ...
i don't accept that
contracts get broken every day in every form of relationship ... nowhere else (in n. america) is the breach resulting in imprisonment ...
i think they do......whether that is *right* or not, i am not even attempting to discuss. i am focusing on the issue of their contracts, and the initial premise of the thread, the verbal discussion before signing, etc. and i would fully agree, i cannot imagine any other contract that would state such....but i do believe the military contract does in fact state such...so yea....i DO believe, one knows of this beforehand, at the very least should know what they are signing....and yes, it is NOT something i would ever volunteer to do. so legally, they are made aware of this beforehand, sign a contract saying they agree to such...so that's that. now you want to argue if it's RIGHT for such a clause to BE in that contract, another conversation entirely....
Comments
I said the military penalties are more harsh, but the idea that you can walk away from any job at will with no penalty is not accurate at all. Most of your typical jobs yes, but there are plenty of jobs with contracts involved that limit your ability to just quit and go on your way.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
bottomline...i believe this is the truth. thus why there ARE written contracts, so that one has a tangible copy of said agreement, no matter what verbal comments/promises may or may not be shared. caveat emptor.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
name me one job that would penalize you for quitting on moral grounds? ... all those companies would just be happy you didn't tell the media ...
If you have a contract, they can't really force you to perform, but the employer would be in an actionable position if you are in breach.
When you enlist, you agree to the Military's terms, which are obviously more strict.
I've been trying to make the point on this thread that the onus of guilt in regard to military enlistment and the contract isn't on the recruiters and their tactics, it is on the legality of the war itself.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Dude, if you sign a contract with a company, and you dont fulfill your committment, you can either be sued, forced to pay back a possible signing bonus, not be allowed to work for a competitor for so many years, etc etc. What the hell is the purpose of a contract if they can be opted out of at any given time?
The thread title asks specifically about lies told to sign a contract. That has nothing to do whether this war was legal or not. Besides the legality of the war means nothing to whether there were lies told in the recruiting process.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
But let me ask you this..do you honestly believe that people that enlist don't realize that if we go to war they would have to fight? That's just ridiculous.
if nothing else, i think we all could be in agreement that being in the military is NOT at all like a 'typical job'...so such comparisions not quite on par. i would think the 'moral grounds' should come BEFORE enlisting, not after...although i am sure it is impossible to truly imagine the horrors of being involved in a war, but nonetheless.....especially with a volunteer army, i think it difficult at best to argue as such.
and..it all depends on what kind of contract one signs, for any job...how detailed, what's involved, etc, etc...there's no saying w/o details of contracts......
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
He said that I'd be able to smoke pot. LOL. Man, he wasn't lying about that. They had the best marijuana in the marine corps that i'd ever seen.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Well the "moral grounds" argument is pretty much thrown out the window for anyone who has enlisted in the last 4 or 5 years anyway, because they knew they were going to be headed to war. The guys that have been the military longer could make that case, but it would be a lot more difficult to prove they were lied to since their enlistment was further back.
Since smoking pot is illegal, you would not have been able to sue if you actually weren't allowed to smoke!
All of this brings me back to the day of business law classes in college!
pls answer the question - name one job where if you guit for moral reasons they would punish you? ... aside from the standard loss of remaining pay, etc ...
a contract is based on a mutually agreed understanding ... no one will sign a contract that says - u will be asked to shoot pregnant women and babies in the head ... so, using fine print and semantics just doesn't cut it ...
take for example waivers people sign when going whitewater rafting ... if you hurt yourself during the course of the event - you can STILL sue ... the waiver means nothing in court ...
They didn't just sign an employment contract. They enlisted in the Military. Anyone with an IQ above 70 should be able to comprehend what the military requires when you join. The point is that the US Government didn't force them into the military..they JOINED on their own.
I honestly don't even remember reading and signing that contract at 16. I looked it up today and it only looks vaguely familiar.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
There are tons. If I sign a contract to build a house, and quit halfway through, I can be sued for breach of contract. There are tons of examples. And shooting a pregnant woman is against the law, therefore an invalid contract to begin with. And the whitewater rafting example isnt about employment, it is about entertainment so it doesnt fit.
But again, what moral reasons are you talking about? If you go sign up for the military today not knowing that you have a 99% chance of getting sent to war, and then you want to quit once you are deployed is that not really your fault for signing up? And I am not for this war, and am not suggesting our troops should be used carelessly. But, you have to keep in mind at this stage especially, that those signing up know they are going to war before they sign up.
again - you aren't answering the question ... if you worked for a mining company and they told you to lie about whether they are performing illegal practices - you CAN quit ... they'll just be happy that you keep quiet ...
a waiver is a form of a contract ...
i'm not talking about people who are quitting because they don't want to serve ... i'm talking about people who went over there - and decided what they were doing was wrong ... to the iraqi people and to the american public ... this war has been proven to be faulty in all aspects ... no matter how you rationalize it - it is wrong ... many have suffered because of the will of a few men ... no person should have to support that whether with their lives or someone else'
But you have to prove what the military is doing is illegal before you can quit, am I not right? And you didnt ask the question based around legalities, you asked it based around morals. Of course you dont have to do anything illegal just because it is in a contract, I thought we understood that as a given.
And I just said I am not for this war, so not sure what you think I am rationalizing. But I just dont see how you can accept someone breaching a contract because of the war, when they knew they were going to war when signing up.
And like someone else mentioned, like it or not, the military is not a typical job. There is no way the military could stage any excercises, whether you thiknk just or not, if they could not depend on the troops staying involved.
they don't have to...they can quit, and sadly yes...suffer the consequences. so if that means prision time, then there it is. i give a lot of credit to those who sign up for the military, for whatever personal reasons they choose b/c i KNOW it is not something i could do. i have many relatives who have, and luckily never served during wartime...i had a father serve in WW2, drafted. however, when one willingly enters into a contract....if ya change your mind down the road....then you deal with whatever consequences that are outlined in said contract if it is broken. it doesn't matter if NO other contract in the world has the same rules...it's the military, it IS going to be different...and thus, different rules. i mean, it's war...what would one expect? agreed, it's an unjust war...but i don't believe anywhere in any contract that would give the soldier the right to decide if the war they participate in is unjust or just...and if they can or will participate. that's why they have contracts in the first place. bottomline, if one joins not realizing there may be times they will do things they don't want to...might feel wrong about.....etc.....i'd say, don't join the military in the first place. me, i can't imagine ever feeling *right* about killing anyone, so yea...i couldn't do it even if somehow i felt a just war, or at the very least...i would not voluntarily join.....
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Do people sign contracts to work for mining companies?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
there is more than enough proof of that to go around ...
i never said you are for or against this war - i am just debating my position that soldiers should be allowed to break a contract without imprisonment being the punishment ... how many of these so-called deserters are doing it because they didn't think they'd get sent to a war-zone??
i just don't accept the reasoning that just because i soldier volunteered into the army - he isn't allowed out ...
well ... from what i can gather - your point boils down to it is the military therefore they operate with different rules ...
i don't accept that
contracts get broken every day in every form of relationship ... nowhere else (in n. america) is the breach resulting in imprisonment ...
In the case of a few US soldiers contesting the war on those grounds, they are not attempting to quit, they are simply refusing deployment to Iraq on the grounds that it is illegal. They want to continue to serve in the US military.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
16??
You dont have to accept the reasoning, but it is what it is, and you know that going in. Obviously we all want the government to be responsible with our troops, especially since they volunteered to do what many of us wouldnt. But at some point in this, there is some personal responsibility on the troops for fulfilling their committments. You know there is a possibility of going to war when signing up, and in this day you know its almost a certainty.
But HOW can they contend that it's illegal if it's not?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Yes. After signing the contract (I've got to assume the contract was signed in that time frame somewhere)and taking all the tests, I took the oath at 10 in the morning...technically 10 minutes before my 17th birthday. About 2 hours later I was on a plane to MCRD, San Diego to start boot camp.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
But who has declared it illegal? I respect their opinion, and really dont disagree, but individual soldiers dont get to decide what military operations are and arent illegal.
i think they do......whether that is *right* or not, i am not even attempting to discuss. i am focusing on the issue of their contracts, and the initial premise of the thread, the verbal discussion before signing, etc. and i would fully agree, i cannot imagine any other contract that would state such....but i do believe the military contract does in fact state such...so yea....i DO believe, one knows of this beforehand, at the very least should know what they are signing....and yes, it is NOT something i would ever volunteer to do. so legally, they are made aware of this beforehand, sign a contract saying they agree to such...so that's that. now you want to argue if it's RIGHT for such a clause to BE in that contract, another conversation entirely....
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow