if you are told lies to sign a contract, how is it valid??

El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
edited May 2007 in A Moving Train
just a thought i had...certain ppl say about the troops that they signed the contract so they get what they are given...but these same ppl will admit recruiters lie to get them to sign the contract...that they tell them whatever they think will get them to sign...so, then, how is the 'contract' valid if they were pretty much lied to and tricked into signing it??
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
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  • barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    El_Kabong wrote:
    just a thought i had...certain ppl say about the troops that they signed the contract so they get what they are given...but these same ppl will admit recruiters lie to get them to sign the contract...that they tell them whatever they think will get them to sign...so, then, how is the 'contract' valid if they were pretty much lied to and tricked into signing it??

    Hey Kabong!

    I think it is dependent on what the contract states. Sadly, folks sign contracts everyday without understanding the legal ramifications, either by being misled, or lack of understanding the language of the contract. I think once the contract is signed, it is valid, even if the individual was misled or simply didn't understand it. It's very important to understand what you are signing. Unfortunately, it seems one needs a lawyer sometimes to translate the meaning and we all know how expensive that can be. :eek:
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

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    ~Albert Einstein
  • sweet adelinesweet adeline Posts: 2,191
    i'm no lawyer, but i think it becomes null and void.
  • sonicreducersonicreducer Posts: 713
    willy korn signed a contract with clemson to play quarterback. this kid is a dual threat. like seriously, a gunslinger,... they promised him he would start, which obviously persuaded him among other promises. he even graduated high school early to learn the program. he is not listed as the starting quarterback this fall, though,...

    this shit happens all the time. we should be attacking the people who make the contracts, not the recruiters or the signees,...

    what do we accomplish otherwise?


    EDIT: i would assume the contract voided at this point, btw,...
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  • robis726robis726 Posts: 132
    Oh, if I knew where it was I would take you there...

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  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    we should be attacking the people who make the contracts, not the recruiters or the signees,...

    what do we accomplish otherwise?

    i'm not so sure i agree w/ you on this one...at least for the recruiters...if they are knowingly lying to ppl to get them sent to a war based on more lies and bullshit....i don't find them that innocent.

    if i set girls up w/ my friend who slipped them ruffies(sp) and raped them and i knew he was gonna do this...even if i don't rape them myself i am an accomplice in the act, right?

    and i'm not trying to pigeonhole all recruiters, just the ones who knowingly trick ppl into signing up for this shit
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    robis726 wrote:
    Fraudulent inducement is an independent tort in that it requires proof of facts separate and distinct from the breach of contract. It normally “occurs prior to the contract and the standard of truthful representation placed upon the defendant is not derived from the contract,” i.e., “whether the defendant was truthful during the formation of the contract is unrelated to the events giving rise to the breach of contract.”


    Fraud in the inducement requires proof of: (1) a false statement of material fact;(2) that the defendant knew or should have known was false; (3) that was made to induce the plaintiff to enter into a contract; and (4) that proximately caused injury to the plaintiff when acting in reliance on the misrepresentation

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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    From the standard contract for all enlistees of the Armed Forces of the United States:

    9. FOR ALL ENLISTEES OR REENLISTEES: Many laws,regulations, and military customs will govern my conduct and require me to do things a civilian does not have to do. The following statements are not promises or guarantees of any kind. They explain some of the present laws affecting the Armed Forces which I cannot change but which Congress can change at any time. a. My enlistment is more than an employment agreement. As a member of the Armed Forces of the United States, I will be:
    (1) Required to obey all lawful orders and perform all assigned duties.
    (2) Subject to separation during or at the end of my enlistment. If my behavior fails to meet acceptable military standards, I may be discharged and given acertificate for less than honorable service, which may hurt my future job opportunities and my claim for veteran's benefits.
    (3) Subject to the military justice system, which means, among other things, that I may be tried by military courts-martial.
    (4) Required upon order to serve in combat or other hazardous situations.
    (5) Entitled to receive pay, allowances, and other benefits as provided by law and regulation. b. Laws and regulations that govern military personnel may change without notice to me. Such changes may affect my status, pay, allowances, benefits, and responsibilities as a member of the Armed Forces REGARDLESS of the provisions of this enlistment/reenlistment document. c. In the event of war, my enlistment in the Armed Forces continues until six
    (6) months after the war ends, unless my enlistment is ended sooner by the President ofthe United States.

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  • MichaelMcKevinMichaelMcKevin Posts: 1,161
    You sign in agreement with what's on the paper... not what you're verbally told
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  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    El_Kabong wrote:
    just a thought i had...certain ppl say about the troops that they signed the contract so they get what they are given...but these same ppl will admit recruiters lie to get them to sign the contract...that they tell them whatever they think will get them to sign...so, then, how is the 'contract' valid if they were pretty much lied to and tricked into signing it??

    verbal lies are acceptable here.
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    Anyone who trusts a salesperson without reading a contract is setting themselves up. Recruiters are nothing more than salespeople.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    gue_barium wrote:
    Fraudulent inducement is an independent tort in that it requires proof of facts separate and distinct from the breach of contract. It normally “occurs prior to the contract and the standard of truthful representation placed upon the defendant is not derived from the contract,” i.e., “whether the defendant was truthful during the formation of the contract is unrelated to the events giving rise to the breach of contract.”


    Fraud in the inducement requires proof of: (1) a false statement of material fact;(2) that the defendant knew or should have known was false; (3) that was made to induce the plaintiff to enter into a contract; and (4) that proximately caused injury to the plaintiff when acting in reliance on the misrepresentation

    Both of these definitions, btw, have more to do with commercial law than anything else.

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  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    the biggest reason that the contract is not null and void is b/c in the contract you sign is this wording. In other words know that whatever anyone told you has the possibility to be BS.

    "The agreements in this section and attached annex(es) are all the promises made to me by the Government.
    ANYTHING ELSE ANYONE HAS PROMISED ME IS NOT VALID AND WILL NOT BE HONORED."
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • jeffbr wrote:
    Anyone who trusts a salesperson without reading a contract is setting themselves up. Recruiters are nothing more than salespeople.

    True but I don't think the average young, inexperienced and perhaps naive person who signs looks at them this way. I mean hell, they aren't even considered mature enough to buy beer but we'll trust them make these kind of huge decisions knowing how impressionable and impulsive they often are. It seems like taking advantage of them in more ways than one.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    True but I don't think the average young, inexperienced and perhaps naive person who signs looks at them this way. I mean hell, they aren't even considered mature enough to buy beer but we'll trust them make these kind of huge decisions knowing how impressionable and impulsive they often are. It seems like taking advantage of them in more ways than one.

    Kind of like letting them go to college and rack up huge student loans.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    By the way, what lies are being told? Is each recruiter telling the same lies?
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • even flow?even flow? Posts: 8,066
    Are they lies? Education? See the world? Play a live version of a video game? Sign out in a box? Seems like they are preaching everything in a truthful kind of fashion.

    But I do see the trouble with your government using you in an illegal situation that wasn't spelled out properly for you when the ink dried.
    You've changed your place in this world!
  • know1 wrote:
    Kind of like letting them go to college and rack up huge student loans.

    No, not like that at all...
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • dg1979usdg1979us Posts: 568
    True but I don't think the average young, inexperienced and perhaps naive person who signs looks at them this way. I mean hell, they aren't even considered mature enough to buy beer but we'll trust them make these kind of huge decisions knowing how impressionable and impulsive they often are. It seems like taking advantage of them in more ways than one.

    It might be taking advantage of them, but it isnt a fraudulent contract.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    No, not like that at all...

    I know what you're saying, but I meant from the standpoint of having a young person make a decision that has big ramifications to their life. Those student loan papers don't exactly spell things out in big, bold terms.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    dg1979us wrote:
    It might be taking advantage of them, but it isnt a fraudulent contract.

    The kicker is in proving that the Iraq war is illegal. In that case, those soldiers refusing deployment on the grounds the war is illegal, would not be in breach of the contract.

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  • dg1979usdg1979us Posts: 568
    gue_barium wrote:
    The kicker is in proving that the Iraq war is illegal. In that case, those soldiers refusing deployment on the grounds the war is illegal, would not be in breach of the contract.

    You could have a point there.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    How can a war that congress voted to engage in be illegal?

    (I'm still waiting to hear what lies are told and whether they are told by all recruiters...)
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Bu$chlagerBu$chlager Posts: 498
    gue_barium wrote:
    The kicker is in proving that the Iraq war is illegal. In that case, those soldiers refusing deployment on the grounds the war is illegal, would not be in breach of the contract.

    Too bad the war is legal. And lies are not lies because someone says they are, they have to be proven.
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    i fail to see how saying they signed voluntarily for the army means do whatever they are told regardless ...

    just makes no sense ... you can quit any job in this world why can't you quit the army especially when you realize the implications of what you are being told to do ...

    mind boggling reasoning
  • dg1979usdg1979us Posts: 568
    polaris wrote:
    i fail to see how saying they signed voluntarily for the army means do whatever they are told regardless ...

    just makes no sense ... you can quit any job in this world why can't you quit the army especially when you realize the implications of what you are being told to do ...

    mind boggling reasoning


    That isnt true. You cant quit any job in which a contract is involved without breaching that contract, which would involve some type of penalty, usually monetary. Now granted, the military has stiffer penalties, but there are punishments for quitting other jobs if your committments in the contract are not fulfilled.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    know1 wrote:
    By the way, what lies are being told? Is each recruiter telling the same lies?

    Recruiters try to be your new best friend. I still remember my recruiter's name, and I couldn't stand the guy. I was the one that went looking to enlist, not the other way around, but the way he behaved it seemed he had a set pattern on how to handle new prospects. He was calling the house every other day to see how I was doing, etc.. It was ridiculous. Whatever BS he told me went in one ear and out the other. Even at 16, I thought knew what I was getting in to, and the recruiter, at best, was just an unpleasant distraction.

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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    BUSH-lager wrote:
    Too bad the war is legal.

    That can change. The truth has a way.

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  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    dg1979us wrote:
    That isnt true. You cant quit any job in which a contract is involved without breaching that contract, which would involve some type of penalty, usually monetary. Now granted, the military has stiffer penalties, but there are punishments for quitting other jobs if your committments in the contract are not fulfilled.

    like what? ... so, you don't get paid the rest of your salary ... i'm sure the soldiers don't mind facing relative penalties ... but imprisonment? ... now, we're talking extortion in a way ...

    either way - what's the deal about living in a free country? ... what kind of system punishes a person for not wanting to do what is immoral?
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    gue_barium wrote:
    Recruiters try to be your new best friend. I still remember my recruiter's name, and I couldn't stand the guy. I was the one that went looking to enlist, not the other way around, but the way he behaved it seemed he had a set pattern on how to handle new prospects. He was calling the house every other day to see how I was doing, etc.. It was ridiculous. Whatever BS he told me went in one ear and out the other. Even at 16, I thought knew what I was getting in to, and the recruiter, at best, was just an unpleasant distraction.

    Were they lies? As someone else said, just because someone on here alleges that lies are being told, does not make it true.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • JOEJOEJOEJOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,612
    El_Kabong wrote:
    i'm not so sure i agree w/ you on this one...at least for the recruiters...if they are knowingly lying to ppl to get them sent to a war based on more lies and bullshit....i don't find them that innocent.

    if i set girls up w/ my friend who slipped them ruffies(sp) and raped them and i knew he was gonna do this...even if i don't rape them myself i am an accomplice in the act, right?

    and i'm not trying to pigeonhole all recruiters, just the ones who knowingly trick ppl into signing up for this shit

    depraved indifference
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