I guess you do what they are doing. That is a personal decision for them and if they think the penalty is worth their convictions then more power to them, I certainly cant disrespect that.
Me either. The amount of disrespect I've read for these guys is unbelievable.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I guess you do what they are doing. That is a personal decision for them and if they think the penalty is worth their convictions then more power to them, I certainly cant disrespect that.
absolutely!
anyone who stands behind their convictions and willing accepts the consequences of their choices/actions...nothing but respect for that. far too few in any realm actually stand behind their convictions to such a degree so i too fail to see how one could disrespect such.
Here is an interesting article in regard to the Geneva POW Convention and American Federal law. There is a protocol in American federal law that must abide by the Geneva Convention. I'm googling more about that relationship now. http://www.counterpunch.org/vanbergen01182005.html
Now here's some good reading. This link provides many links that question the legality of the US-led invasion on Iraq. Most of them seem to be from 2003.
What you should really be doing is working really hard to convince people not to enlist....not trying to harp about it being illegal or they were mislead (of which you will never convince more than a handful of people...myself included and I oppose war). If we could stop people from enlisting, then it would be a lot more difficult to conduct a war, huh?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
What you should really be doing is working really hard to convince people not to enlist....not trying to harp about it being illegal or they were mislead (of which you will never convince more than a handful of people...myself included and I oppose war). If we could stop people from enlisting, then it would be a lot more difficult to conduct a war, huh?
I don't think there's anything wrong with men and women wanting to serve our country in a military role. I'm not a pacifist. We are a safer nation served honorably by our Armed Forces whether you want to believe that or not.
What you should really be doing is working really hard to convince people not to enlist....not trying to harp about it being illegal or they were mislead (of which you will never convince more than a handful of people...myself included and I oppose war). If we could stop people from enlisting, then it would be a lot more difficult to conduct a war, huh?
...and I'm not "harping" about the illegality of Iraq, and the chain of command having broken down. I believe the focus that Watada has chosen is the honorable one in terms of the way our soldiers could be considering this Iraq conflict and the roles they play in it.
But let me ask you this..do you honestly believe that people that enlist don't realize that if we go to war they would have to fight? That's just ridiculous.
no, but it seems like fraud to me, and it seems like if someone fraudulently gets you to sign a contract there should be some recourse
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
(I'm still waiting to hear what lies are told and whether they are told by all recruiters...)
really?? all you had to do was read post #6 to find at least one of the answers...
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I understand that. But who has declared Iraq illegal? Just because they "think" it is illegal doesnt make it so (though I agree with them). They need to go to court and prove that.
i think the un did, didn't they? does it really matter? we pulled out of the international criminal court...we broke international law in this, as we have many times...we acted unilateraly. we act like a rogue nation, like the big kid on the block who can do what he wants b/c he has the force
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
your choice is to not volunarily sign up in the first place.
and i am not going to assume what soldiers are *made* to do......but first and foremost, for this discussion anyway...to me it's what you are given, your CHOICE to vountarily sign up or not......and agreed to said terms.....that's the legality of the contract, anything else imo is another discussion.
what if i sold you a car and told you it was in perfect condition and all that...so you buy the car and it breaks down and ends up being a peice of junk...could you not sue to get your money back?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I think it is dependent on what the contract states. Sadly, folks sign contracts everyday without understanding the legal ramifications, either by being misled, or lack of understanding the language of the contract. I think once the contract is signed, it is valid, even if the individual was misled or simply didn't understand it. It's very important to understand what you are signing. Unfortunately, it seems one needs a lawyer sometimes to translate the meaning and we all know how expensive that can be. :eek:
hiya baraka!
i guess so...but it seems like if i mislead someone into signing something there should be a recource...
i guess it would be hard to prove a recruiter lied to you, how would you prove it?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
what if i sold you a car and told you it was in perfect condition and all that...so you buy the car and it breaks down and ends up being a peice of junk...could you not sue to get your money back?
You can sue anybody for anything. Winning the suit is a different story, and I believe you would not win in the example above.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
really?? all you had to do was read post #6 to find at least one of the answers...
Here was post #6:
"i'm not so sure i agree w/ you on this one...at least for the recruiters...if they are knowingly lying to ppl to get them sent to a war based on more lies and bullshit....i don't find them that innocent.
if i set girls up w/ my friend who slipped them ruffies(sp) and raped them and i knew he was gonna do this...even if i don't rape them myself i am an accomplice in the act, right?
and i'm not trying to pigeonhole all recruiters, just the ones who knowingly trick ppl into signing up for this shit"
I guess I'm dense, but I do not see the specific lie that is being told.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
what if i sold you a car and told you it was in perfect condition and all that...so you buy the car and it breaks down and ends up being a peice of junk...could you not sue to get your money back?
you could sue and you may win especially since you don't say you have a written contract. The military is smart and they have very well-worded written contracts which are much easier to enforce. The lesson is read the contract and if you want to make sure something is there make it in the appendix that army contract offers. If it's not in the contract, it doesn't matter. Now, it is shady if they make promises to get you to sign that they have no intention of upholding but the contract states in bold letters that anything said or promised outside the contract is invalid.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
i'm not so sure i agree w/ you on this one...at least for the recruiters...if they are knowingly lying to ppl to get them sent to a war based on more lies and bullshit....i don't find them that innocent.
if i set girls up w/ my friend who slipped them ruffies(sp) and raped them and i knew he was gonna do this...even if i don't rape them myself i am an accomplice in the act, right?
and i'm not trying to pigeonhole all recruiters, just the ones who knowingly trick ppl into signing up for this shit
the recruiters are knowingly lying to people because of the orders they received and the bonuses they get for getting more recruits (speculating). if you find out who they answer to, attack them. if you attack the recruiters, their bosses will just replace them with someone else who does the same shit, right? i don't know how recruitment works up the ladder, but there has to be some type of document protecting citizens from those lies,... id like to do some research on it. my grandma has been a civilian on an AFB for 20+, so ill ask her and see what kind of info i can get,...
you're a real hooker. im gonna slap you in public.
~Ron Burgundy
just a thought i had...certain ppl say about the troops that they signed the contract so they get what they are given...but these same ppl will admit recruiters lie to get them to sign the contract...that they tell them whatever they think will get them to sign...so, then, how is the 'contract' valid if they were pretty much lied to and tricked into signing it??
this is TOO easy to answer...when you sign a contract you READ the contract...you DO NOT listen to what someone is SAYING! if you fail to read it, then you are at fault...not the recruiter.
What you should really be doing is working really hard to convince people not to enlist....not trying to harp about it being illegal or they were mislead (of which you will never convince more than a handful of people...myself included and I oppose war). If we could stop people from enlisting, then it would be a lot more difficult to conduct a war, huh?
so I'm just a bit curious as to what you'd suggest if we get attacked again.... and we have no military?? I'm fairly certain if an 18 year old is old enough to shoot someone, he is old enough to read a contract.
Comments
Me either. The amount of disrespect I've read for these guys is unbelievable.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
absolutely!
anyone who stands behind their convictions and willing accepts the consequences of their choices/actions...nothing but respect for that. far too few in any realm actually stand behind their convictions to such a degree so i too fail to see how one could disrespect such.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
http://www.counterpunch.org/vanbergen01182005.html
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except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
http://www.robincmiller.com/ir-legal.htm
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except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I don't think there's anything wrong with men and women wanting to serve our country in a military role. I'm not a pacifist. We are a safer nation served honorably by our Armed Forces whether you want to believe that or not.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
what about this?
http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=4462729&postcount=33
no, but it seems like fraud to me, and it seems like if someone fraudulently gets you to sign a contract there should be some recourse
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
really?? all you had to do was read post #6 to find at least one of the answers...
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i think the un did, didn't they? does it really matter? we pulled out of the international criminal court...we broke international law in this, as we have many times...we acted unilateraly. we act like a rogue nation, like the big kid on the block who can do what he wants b/c he has the force
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
what if i sold you a car and told you it was in perfect condition and all that...so you buy the car and it breaks down and ends up being a peice of junk...could you not sue to get your money back?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
hiya baraka!
i guess so...but it seems like if i mislead someone into signing something there should be a recource...
i guess it would be hard to prove a recruiter lied to you, how would you prove it?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
That Colonel is full of shit in his surprise.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
You can sue anybody for anything. Winning the suit is a different story, and I believe you would not win in the example above.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Here was post #6:
"i'm not so sure i agree w/ you on this one...at least for the recruiters...if they are knowingly lying to ppl to get them sent to a war based on more lies and bullshit....i don't find them that innocent.
if i set girls up w/ my friend who slipped them ruffies(sp) and raped them and i knew he was gonna do this...even if i don't rape them myself i am an accomplice in the act, right?
and i'm not trying to pigeonhole all recruiters, just the ones who knowingly trick ppl into signing up for this shit"
I guess I'm dense, but I do not see the specific lie that is being told.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
you could sue and you may win especially since you don't say you have a written contract. The military is smart and they have very well-worded written contracts which are much easier to enforce. The lesson is read the contract and if you want to make sure something is there make it in the appendix that army contract offers. If it's not in the contract, it doesn't matter. Now, it is shady if they make promises to get you to sign that they have no intention of upholding but the contract states in bold letters that anything said or promised outside the contract is invalid.
the recruiters are knowingly lying to people because of the orders they received and the bonuses they get for getting more recruits (speculating). if you find out who they answer to, attack them. if you attack the recruiters, their bosses will just replace them with someone else who does the same shit, right? i don't know how recruitment works up the ladder, but there has to be some type of document protecting citizens from those lies,... id like to do some research on it. my grandma has been a civilian on an AFB for 20+, so ill ask her and see what kind of info i can get,...
~Ron Burgundy
Very much so.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
this is TOO easy to answer...when you sign a contract you READ the contract...you DO NOT listen to what someone is SAYING! if you fail to read it, then you are at fault...not the recruiter.
NEXT!
from my window to yours
so I'm just a bit curious as to what you'd suggest if we get attacked again.... and we have no military?? I'm fairly certain if an 18 year old is old enough to shoot someone, he is old enough to read a contract.