Why Do Athiests

Cosmo wrote:

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Well, you know... I'm pretty much a live and let live kinda guy. If someone believes in whatever faith... i say, "Great!". It works for you and you're happy... I'm happy. i don't expect anyone to adhere to my beliefs because I know that my beliefs are both... mine... and belief. It isn't the truth, so it does not apply to anyone else. And in the same manner... your faith is yours... not mine. And it is faith, not truth. Therefore, your faith does not necessarily apply to me. But, it works for you and I am glad it does.
I hope we all find the path to lead us to what we seek. The journey is our own... and who knows... maybe they all lead to the same destination. None of us will know until we get there. So, have a peaceful journey... that's what i say.

Very nicely said Cosmo.
That's pretty much my view on it all too. I think accepting other people regardless of our differences is a difficult thing to do but something we could all benefit from. And peace and love are always good things to take into the world. And hopefully out of it too.

Jeanie wrote:

Depends on the study doesn't it Ahnimus? As I've mentioned before, it's well worth knowing who did the study and any bias they may have before we accept the results as gospel, so to speak.

Frankly when you are ill, you don't really care so much what the people around you are doing in their inner world. You really don't have the energy to be "policing" the thoughts of those around you. You have your own to deal with. I'm quite sure that should you become seriously ill that the people around you know your views on prayer and religion and they won't be telling you that they will pray for you. But how they cope with the emotional fall out of your illness really is up to them. And I can't see you having the energy or the inclination to be debating with them about what you deem is the appropriate way for them to cope.

How do you know how I would think if I was ill? Based on your own personal experiences. That's the same old song Jeanie. It means sweet fuck all to me.

deadnothingbetter wrote:

i think the answer is faith. it's not the water that holds the power but faith alone. prayer is only evidence for your fervent faith... anyways, not that i care. i'm not really sure if the water story is true indeed.

i've never seen a miracle myself. i do believe in them though. but i think if someone has a miracle like a friend of mine who was almost stabbed to death... he crawled himself in the middle of the night 3 blocks away to his home till he could get someone to rescue him. they punctured his lungs, stabbed him on the side of the forehead, around the neck, around the stomache... geez they stabbed him in any other place you could think of. it took him 45 min to get to his house till they could call an ambulance. he doesn't remember much afterwards... just dreams. now he's alive and doing well. that's a miracle to me.

or like my mother... she had about 20 tumors in her head. she suffered from epilepsy because of that. for nearly 3 years, the doctors said she wouldn't make it. my father got scared, so that's when he started going to church. when she had her first visit in church she had an experience... call it what you will or call it the way Ahnimus explains it, it doesn't matter. but the next week when she had her doctor's appointment they were all freaked out that the tumors were all gone. not unless of course, my parents are lying to me.... although they've never lied.

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Great. I'm glad it all turned out for the better.
But, what does it say about the thousands of others who die... is their faith not as strong? And as for the power of faith by others... those miners in Virginia had the prayers of the entire nation working for them... and what happened? They all died. Was it because i didn't pray for them?
I am not trying to debunk your examples... I do believe that miracles do happen... but, they are anomalies, not the norm.
and trust me... no one wishes they could just believe more than me. Like a song my friend Jill sings,
...
I have a friend who swears she saw Jesus, Hovering above her lonely bed.
She said it changed her life forever, "Whatever works," I said.
I sit at home, changing channels, It's so hard to concentrate.
I laugh at her, but I'm pretty sure She's having a better day

Maybe I'll lay on the highway somewhere in New Mexico And wait for a strange light to come and take me home.
Maybe I'll stand by the statue and wait for her to cry... I wanna see real tears and be sincere once before I die.

The other night I talked to an old flame, Who finally said why she moved on.
She said I didn't have faith in anything, I knew she wasn't wrong.
I saw two lovers in the park With that dreamy look of lust in their eyes.
The whole world smiled as they passed by... They just make me mad.

Maybe I'll lay on the highway somewhere in New Mexico And wait for a strange light to come and take me home.
Maybe I'll stand by the statue and wait for her to cry... Take this jaded heart, blow it all apart, once before I...

I'll get down on my knees, something I don't believe...
Somebody help me, please, I'm starting to repeat myself... I'm starting to repeat...

So, I'll lay on the highway somewhere in New Mexico And wait for a strange light to come and take me home.
And I'll stand by the statue and wait for her to cry. I'd love to see a miracle once before I die...
Once before I die.

onelongsong wrote:

similar cases were discussed in the american medical journal. i believe december 2005. doctors are prescribing patients to eat buffalo meat all over the country. researchers are trying to isolate the compound that destroys the cancer. thanks to the chemical companies; you cannot claim a cure until you can precisely measure dosage. that's the law. so until the compound is isolated; and an exact dosage can be established; millions will die from cancer. this is why natural products cannot be advertised and medicines.

here's a breast cancer study you may be interested in. sorry to those who've already seen it.

CLA (conjugated linoleic acid) is a cancer-fighting fat that is most abundant in grassfed products. Two new European studies link a diet high in CLA with a lower risk of breast cancer. In Finland, researchers measured CLA levels in the serum of women with and without breast cancer. Those women with the most CLA had a significantly lower risk of the disease. Meanwhile, French researchers measured CLA levels in the breast tissues of 360 women. Once again, the women with the most CLA had the lowest risk of cancer. In fact, the women with the most CLA had a staggering 74% lower risk of breast cancer than the women with the least CLA.
The most natural and effective way to increase your intake of CLA is to eat the meat and dairy products of grassfed animals.
A. Aro et al, Kuopio University, Finland; Bougnoux, P, Lavillonniere F, Riboli E. "Inverse relation between CLA in adipose breast tissue and risk of breast cancer. A case-control study in France." Inform 10;5:S43, 1999

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So, did you give the old man and your mom and sister water from Lourdes and prayer... or buffalo meat and grassfed milk... or water from Lourdes, prayer, buffalo meat and grassfed milk??

Jeanie wrote:

Hi Cosmo.
Just if you could answer a couple of quick question please?
Do you have friends or family who are religious? And if so, do you find that as you care for them you are more likely to understand and accept their prayers in times of difficulty because you know that is a way for them to feel that they are helping you?
I'm just wondering.

hi jeanie,
i know i'm not cosmo but i feel the need to answer this question anyway. you know how i get girl.
i have friends and family who are religious, or who think they are anyway. they know that i am an atheist. what i would like from them is respect enough that they know how i would feel if i were aware they were praying for me. they know it would not be helping me. therefore i would assume, rightly or wrongly, that they would desist in 'wasting' their prayer on someone who believes they don't need saving nor the 'power' of prayer.

onelongsong wrote:

people of religion welcome death. the ultimate prize is to be with God. i'm only 51 yet i have a standing DNR order. i've done more than most people; now i want something better. you speak of death like it's something bad; to others; it's the best part of life.

although this is true, the topic is about miracles. i think cosmo wants answers for these proclaimed "miracles" that you've experienced.

onelongsong wrote:

everyone wants answers. why do you think we're doing so much research?

i thought miracles were due to unexplained "phenomena".

yes he wants answers but what i meant was he was asking, "why did those miners that were constantly prayed for hoping they would make it alive end up dying?"

onelongsong wrote:

right. water was only an example of how faith can heal.
the actual "cure" is something in buffalo meat. science says it's a compound and are trying to isolate it. i think it's the entire combination of everything available in buffalo meat. if and only if the buffalo are raised properly. the usda has a lot of information as well as the NIH.

our native American Indians did too.