Suicide

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  • Jeanie
    Jeanie Posts: 9,446
    soulsinging wrote:
    ......certainly, some people could get past their desire to die with proper support, be it medical or emotional. but i dont think that means it is inherently wrong or evil or stupid or whatever else you want to call it. i think it is simply a desperate decision made my someone who felt they had no other way out. maybe they were right, maybe they were wrong. but there are worse things in life than death.

    Thank you. :)
    NOPE!!!

    *~You're IT Bert!~*

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  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    soulsinging wrote:
    ah... that is exactly what you DID say and when i said you were talking about mental illnesses like depression you insisted you were not. so i take you misspoke then?

    anyway, im not urging us to push people to suicide as a first tactic. certainly, some people could get past their desire to die with proper support, be it medical or emotional. but i dont think that means it is inherently wrong or evil or stupid or whatever else you want to call it. i think it is simply a desperate decision made my someone who felt they had no other way out. maybe they were right, maybe they were wrong. but there are worse things in life than death.
    i think everything that we fear is linked in some way to death... but that's a whole other thing.

    anyways... yes, i misspoke...

    i'm not speaking about suicide as some kind of "evil" here... that's totally out of the topic here.

    in any way, there are obviously better things in life to cope with issues... and count me in... if suicide isn't based on a mental illness... i'll just label them a complete and total jackass. but ONLY if it's not linked to some kind of chemical imbalance. i wouldn't waste a second hearing someone tell me about their troubles and then in the end they resolve to ending their life. so what did you need me for? it's like i wasted a precious half hour of my life hearing of all this gloom and doom. obviously, my shoulder was irrelevant to you. yeah, if someone rationalizes in their mind that they feel more dignified by ending their life, then in that case, i feel more dignified by not even wastingg a single moment with your fucked up ideas. life is way too precious... whether there be wars, famines, diseases or whatever, it's great to know that at some point we lived. whether it was fucked or not, my life is valuable.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • Jeanie
    Jeanie Posts: 9,446
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    technically, based on what you said earlier... that your doctor fucked up with your medications, then technically, it's not your choice. you'd be basing it on the fact that your brain isn't functioning right. it's a neurological disorder... if you are suicidal, then in this case you need to get help

    That's my point though dead. Doctor's prescribe shit all the time. And they cannot know what the individual outcome will be. So technically my doctor didn't fuck up either. None of which would have made me feel better had I ended up dead! Or him either for that matter. He may not have been able to conclude that the medication was what created the suicidal tendencies had I not been alive to tell him. :D

    If your brain isn't functioning right, most of the time, people don't know that. So how would they then seek help? It's not like you would wake up and go "I have a neurological disorder, therefore rationally I know I need to go see my doctor and he will solve this problem before I kill myself".
    NOPE!!!

    *~You're IT Bert!~*

    Hold on to the thread
    The currents will shift
  • Jeanie
    Jeanie Posts: 9,446
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    No one does: tradition decides it. Those who wish to overturn tradition must rationally determine why tradition is incorrect. Their reasons for opposing tradition are not good enough; therefore, traditional beliefs regarding suicide remain.

    Those who support suicide are not addressing the fact that the majority of suicides occur because the person is mentally ill. Legalizing it would do nothing to address their problems except make it socially acceptable.

    Explain to me then how it's illegal?

    Because if you are dead then the law does not apply to you anyway.
    NOPE!!!

    *~You're IT Bert!~*

    Hold on to the thread
    The currents will shift
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    Jeanie wrote:
    I know I'm not stupid. :) And I don't think my doctor was either. He prescribed what he thought would be the best course of treatment for me at that time. He could not know for a certainty that what he was prescribing would make me depressed and suicidal, and I'm quite sure if he'd known the outcome before he prescribed it, he wouldn't have done so. The only good thing about what happened to me is that it also happened to a lot of other people on the same medication and now doctors are more aware of the possible complications and are more pro active when prescribing it, and more vigilant for these side effects in individuals. My point being that science cannot as yet completely explain why someone would want to take their own life. They have good medical evidence that suggests why in a lot of cases, but as suicide is an individual thing, they will never know every reason, for every suicide. A person's reason for suiciding is as individual as the individual. And most doctors can't agree about reasons, or solutions. So with that in mind, and given the complete lack of mental health funding in most countries in the world, even the more "progressive" civilizations, I would have to say that we have a long way to go before we can simply call someone stupid or idiotic for killing themselves, or selfish for that matter. There will be reasons. We may just never know what they are. And they may not even be "mental illness" or "chemical imbalance". Suicide is an outcome. What we really need to understand is how an individual reached that outcome in order to prevent it happening to others.
    well.... if in some cases it's based on the prescriptions prescribed to you... then by all means, that's what led you to be suicidal. if it's for whatever reason, your grandma died, your cat died, your boyfriend left you, you've had bad luck... then sorry, but i don't feel sorry. like my friend who wanted to kill himself because he got his girl pregnant, or my other friend who wanted to kill himself because his girlfriend left him. yeah, i'm not feeling sorry for that.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    then sorry, but i don't feel sorry.

    But... you just... and... What?
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    Jeanie wrote:
    That's my point though dead. Doctor's prescribe shit all the time. And they cannot know what the individual outcome will be. So technically my doctor didn't fuck up either. None of which would have made me feel better had I ended up dead! Or him either for that matter. He may not have been able to conclude that the medication was what created the suicidal tendencies had I not been alive to tell him. :D

    If your brain isn't functioning right, most of the time, people don't know that. So how would they then seek help? It's not like you would wake up and go "I have a neurological disorder, therefore rationally I know I need to go see my doctor and he will solve this problem before I kill myself".
    well, i only said that cos you said your doctor fucked up... anyways, that's why i don't like the idea of drugs... at all.

    if someone's brain isnt' functioning right... i guess, we'll see weird things that the person does. like the place i work at... people just know when their relative, or boyfriend or girlfriend is being weird... even if they weren't previously diagnosed with a mental illness. like they stay up all night walking around the house, or they're acting more aggressively than before... things like that are big hints.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    But... you just... and... What?
    ;)
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    i think everything that we fear is linked in some way to death... but that's a whole other thing.

    anyways... yes, i misspoke...

    i'm not speaking about suicide as some kind of "evil" here... that's totally out of the topic here.

    in any way, there are obviously better things in life to cope with issues... and count me in... if suicide isn't based on a mental illness... i'll just label them a complete and total jackass. but ONLY if it's not linked to some kind of chemical imbalance. i wouldn't waste a second hearing someone tell me about their troubles and then in the end they resolve to ending their life. so what did you need me for? it's like i wasted a precious half hour of my life hearing of all this gloom and doom. obviously, my shoulder was irrelevant to you. yeah, if someone rationalizes in their mind that they feel more dignified by ending their life, then in that case, i feel more dignified by not even wastingg a single moment with your fucked up ideas. life is way too precious... whether there be wars, famines, diseases or whatever, it's great to know that at some point we lived. whether it was fucked or not, my life is valuable.

    how would you know you were wasting your time if you didnt know they would kill themselves until after? perhaps they wanted to find a reason and your intolerance and condescension pushed them over the edge and convinced them they truly had nothing to live for and no one who cared about them.
  • Jeanie
    Jeanie Posts: 9,446
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    well.... if in some cases it's based on the prescriptions prescribed to you... then by all means, that's what led you to be suicidal. if it's for whatever reason, your grandma died, your cat died, your boyfriend left you, you've had bad luck... then sorry, but i don't feel sorry. like my friend who wanted to kill himself because he got his girl pregnant, or my other friend who wanted to kill himself because his girlfriend left him. yeah, i'm not feeling sorry for that.

    So how come I get a "get out of jail free card"? Just as I don't get an extra pat on the back for being able to somehow resist the urge while on the meds.

    There are things in this life that you will have done dead, that I would not understand in a month of Sundays, just as I'm sure there are things that I have done that you could never comprehend. However, I do not live in your body, in your life and I have not had to make the choices that you have had to make, so I would not presume to judge what is the appropriate course of action for you to take at any given time. And I realize that it's a pipe dream of mine, but I still expect the same courtesy from others.
    I mean to completely dismiss a human being and all that they achieved, all the good they did in a life time simply because they took themselves out of the picture seems much more selfish and less compassionate to me than actually committing suicide itself. If we cannot be sympathetic and empathetic to others, if we cannot try to understand and be compassionate, how are we any better?
    NOPE!!!

    *~You're IT Bert!~*

    Hold on to the thread
    The currents will shift
  • norm
    norm Posts: 31,146
    Jeanie wrote:
    There are things in this life that you will have done dead, that I would not understand in a month of Sundays, just as I'm sure there are things that I have done that you could never comprehend. However, I do not live in your body, in your life and I have not had to make the choices that you have had to make, so I would not presume to judge what is the appropriate course of action for you to take at any given time. And I realize that it's a pipe dream of mine, but I still expect the same courtesy from others.
    I mean to completely dismiss a human being and all that they achieved, all the good they did in a life time simply because they took themselves out of the picture seems much more selfish and less compassionate to me than actually committing suicide itself. If we cannot be sympathetic and empathetic to others, if we cannot try to understand and be compassionate, how are we any better?

    :o

    :)
  • Jeanie
    Jeanie Posts: 9,446
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    well, i only said that cos you said your doctor fucked up... anyways, that's why i don't like the idea of drugs... at all.

    if someone's brain isnt' functioning right... i guess, we'll see weird things that the person does. like the place i work at... people just know when their relative, or boyfriend or girlfriend is being weird... even if they weren't previously diagnosed with a mental illness. like they stay up all night walking around the house, or they're acting more aggressively than before... things like that are big hints.

    I'm not a fan of drugs myself, but I'm even less of a fan of the consequences of not taking them when they are a necessity.

    So if we are saying that we have to rely on the observations of those around us in order to know when someone's brain isn't functioning correctly how then can we blame the person who manages to slip through and commit suicide because they didn't have anyone around them to notice?
    NOPE!!!

    *~You're IT Bert!~*

    Hold on to the thread
    The currents will shift
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    soulsinging wrote:
    how would you know you were wasting your time if you didnt know they would kill themselves until after? perhaps they wanted to find a reason and your intolerance and condescension pushed them over the edge and convinced them they truly had nothing to live for and no one who cared about them.
    why should that be of any interest to you?
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • Jeanie
    Jeanie Posts: 9,446
    cutback wrote:
    :o

    :)

    :) Well I know you get me! :)

    Thank god! :o
    NOPE!!!

    *~You're IT Bert!~*

    Hold on to the thread
    The currents will shift
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    Jeanie wrote:
    So how come I get a "get out of jail free card"? Just as I don't get an extra pat on the back for being able to somehow resist the urge while on the meds.

    There are things in this life that you will have done dead, that I would not understand in a month of Sundays, just as I'm sure there are things that I have done that you could never comprehend. However, I do not live in your body, in your life and I have not had to make the choices that you have had to make, so I would not presume to judge what is the appropriate course of action for you to take at any given time. And I realize that it's a pipe dream of mine, but I still expect the same courtesy from others.
    I mean to completely dismiss a human being and all that they achieved, all the good they did in a life time simply because they took themselves out of the picture seems much more selfish and less compassionate to me than actually committing suicide itself. If we cannot be sympathetic and empathetic to others, if we cannot try to understand and be compassionate, how are we any better?
    i'm guessing you don't understand reverse psychology??? i pretend i don't care, although i do care, which then makes you want me to care... so you try to work up for it... like you are doing right now... ;):D
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    Jeanie wrote:
    how then can we blame the person who manages to slip through and commit suicide because they didn't have anyone around them to notice?
    why does that matter? geesh... the person slipped through and managed to kill themselves... all well, sucks... life goes on... just don't do it yourself.... let's work to avoid this problem
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • Jeanie
    Jeanie Posts: 9,446
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    i'm guessing you don't understand reverse psychology??? i pretend i don't care, although i do care, which then makes you want me to care... so you try to work up for it... like you are doing right now... ;):D

    Oh I understand it, I'm just thinking it's a mighty big risk to take when dealing with a suicidal person.

    Much and all as dealing with someone who is suicidal is exhausting and time consuming and quite the rollercoaster, be awful if your reverse psychology idea backfired yeah? :o
    NOPE!!!

    *~You're IT Bert!~*

    Hold on to the thread
    The currents will shift
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    Jeanie wrote:
    Oh I understand it, I'm just thinking it's a mighty big risk to take when dealing with a suicidal person.

    Much and all as dealing with someone who is suicidal is exhausting and time consuming and quite the rollercoaster, be awful if your reverse psychology idea backfired yeah? :o
    nope... i'm conscience free... they were idealizing suicide in the first place anyways... and by any means my words, whether harsh, were still uplifting and encouraging.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • Jeanie
    Jeanie Posts: 9,446
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    why does that matter? geesh... the person slipped through and managed to kill themselves... all well, sucks... life goes on... just don't do it yourself.... let's work to avoid this problem


    Of course it matters. Because this thread was originally started to comment on suicide from this perspective:
    Collin wrote:
    What are your views on suicide?

    "If someone chooses to end their life, should we allow them to?"

    This question was asked in another thread.

    And to my way of thinking if we don't do all that we can to stop it, if we don't find ways to treat people then we are allowing it.
    And while there are still people that openly blame others and belittle those who do succeed then we are perpetuating it to my mind.
    It's not enough to find the reasons why it happens, we need to educate people about how they view it, how they speak about it, otherwise we are allowing it to continue
    NOPE!!!

    *~You're IT Bert!~*

    Hold on to the thread
    The currents will shift
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    nope... i'm conscience free... they were idealizing suicide in the first place anyways... and by any means my words, whether harsh, were still uplifting and encouraging.

    who is idealizing suicide? and clearly you've never been aywhere near suicide cos you dont fuck with people in that state of mind. they are down enough as it is, and calling them names like "coward" "weak" and "stupid" is the act of an asshole.

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