the pope is in hot water with the muslim world

hippiemom wrote:

Here's what I don't get ... why do Muslims care what the pope says? They don't believe in his authority, so who cares?

Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson blamed the collapse of the twin towers on me and people who think like me. I didn't go rioting in the street, I got a good laugh out of it and moved on. They are irrelevant to me, as is the pope, as the pope should be to Muslims. What are they all excited about?

Maybe they fear the western world makes decisions based on religious faith and leaders much the same way some of us fear they do.

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Maybe they fear the western world makes decisions based on religious faith and leaders much the same way some of us fear they do.

Most of the pope's power comes from people believing he has some sort of authority. They're only increasing his standing in the world by acting as though his opinion has any meaning for them.

The same can be said for cartoonists. No power, beyond what is given them by people screaming in the streets.

The Muslim world has a serious PR problem. A psych 101 class would do them a world of good. All their protests only give an unearned legitimacy to those who criticize them.

hippiemom wrote:

Most of the pope's power comes from people believing he has some sort of authority. They're only increasing his standing in the world by acting as though his opinion has any meaning for them.

The same can be said for cartoonists. No power, beyond what is given them by people screaming in the streets.

The Muslim world has a serious PR problem. A psych 101 class would do them a world of good. All their protests only give an unearned legitimacy to those who criticize them.

Oh, I'm not saying they should worry about the pope. I'm only figuring why they do. They do hold alot of stock in their religious leaders and so it might have something to do with it. I think they fear themselves being demonized any further, as well...and are act out in the wrong manner to offset it. Like you said, they act out of these fears and people say 'See!! See!! They're hostile animals!!' They see Islamic countries being blown to bits and want to this to stop. The problems lies in their highly religious society were fanaticism leads to highly emotional and over-played responses. It's happening here, too...but we also have a good portion of level headed people to keep things much, much more calm and civilized.

dg1979us wrote:

Its not happening here anywhere near the same level it happens in Islamic countries. Like hippiemom said, there religious leaders stir riots over a cartoon, where as the entire jewish world didnt care a bit about the holocaust cartoons. I think this type of thing is used as brainwashing, where their religiours leaders try and make there societies think the west is against Islam. When in reality, I think there real issue with the west should be our greed, not our desire to destory Islam.

I know it's not. I said that. It's fairly obvious many of us don't give a shit about religious leaders say. I see religions as cult like and often destructive, no question. People here at least for the most part don't let it rule their life. But people in countries where suffering is high almost always are highly religious. They are hoping in some kind of afterlife much better than the one they currently have. This causes them to make horrible decisions and not focus on working on the world we live in now and ways of making it better for future generations.

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I know it's not. I said that. It's fairly obvious many of us don't give a shit about religious leaders say. I see religions as cult like and often destructive, no question. People here at least for the most part don't let it rule their life. But people in countries where suffering is high almost always are highly religious. They are hoping in some kind of afterlife much better than the one they currently have. This causes them to make horrible decisions and not focus on working on the world we live in now and ways of making it better for future generations.

I understand that, and I'm not unsympathetic to their plight. I certainly do see that the average peaceable Muslim is being made to look bad. All I'm saying is that if they want to be seen differently by the world, they're going to have to present themselves differently to the world. What they say to their god is between them and their god, but what they say to the world is a public relations problem and they need to approach it from a public relations standpoint. And this nonsense of protesting every time someone says something they don't like is doing them way more harm than good. Just think how many people they'd win over if they'd laugh at the pope over something like this, rather than getting themselves all in an uproar.

hippiemom wrote:

I understand that, and I'm not unsympathetic to their plight. I certainly do see that the average peaceable Muslim is being made to look bad. All I'm saying is that if they want to be seen differently by the world, they're going to have to present themselves differently to the world. What they say to their god is between them and their god, but what they say to the world is a public relations problem and they need to approach it from a public relations standpoint. And this nonsense of protesting every time someone says something they don't like is doing them way more harm than good. Just think how many people they'd win over if they'd laugh at the pope over something like this, rather than getting themselves all in an uproar.

Yes, I agree. I'm not saying their methods are good by any means. I'm only trying to understand where they are coming from. If only they would apply more logical reasoning to life than religious craziness.

dg1979us wrote:

Its coming from brainwashing and not knowing anything different because their leaders close off their societies to the outside world.

You will never hear me argue that religions aren't a form of brainwashing.

dg1979us wrote:

I dont disagree, but what I am saying is living in an open society even the most christian or jewish people can cut through the bullshit of what there religious leaders say and become rational, informed people. Where as, when your religious leaders decide how society is run and operates and dont allow for the human nature aspect of life to bleed through, then you become really brainwashed and become the type of person who will riot because of a cartoon, or the type of person who will strap a bomb on you and blow yourself up for your religion. Our societies arent comparable and the western society, despite a lot of problems, is most definately a better society. And I dont blame the average saudi or iranian, because when your whole world is wrapped around religion, beyond your control, then there is no way to know any different. And that shows with the cartoon, and with the pope. For most rational societies the cartoon and the popes comments become a point of discussion, not a point of anger.

To which I point to suffering. The more suffering in a society, the higher the religious stronghold. Our society maybe religious but we don't take it so literal and let it consume us. We have other things to enjoy and live for.

dg1979us wrote:

I certainly agree, but it comes from their own leaders more than it comes from the west. Which going back to the pope, their anger should be at their own religious and government leaders, not an outsider who criticizes them.

I guess they think we give a shit like they do what these religious leaders have to say and fear more demonizing and suffering to come their way. They are simply too religious to see these problems are not being helped at all from within. How do you go about urging a people to be less religious for their own good? Man, that's seems tricky.

It's coming from anger and hate of anything or anyone who differs from them, whether it be culture or ideology.

There's no excuse or justification of their actions. These Islamic fundamentalists simply believe in imposing, intimidating, threatening and violently acting out against anyone who dares not believe as they do or question and criticize their history of intolerance and violence.

Realistically, they are no different than any other whackos from any other religion, who have in the past reacted and acted in the same manner.

Problem is, Muslims are currently the worst and most violent of them all.

It's interesting that a good friend of mine who is an immigrant from the Middle East (and Muslim), often claims much of their so-called claims of the West (or anyone else) attacking their religion or culture; are in fact based in contrived falsehoods and duplicitious manipulation by not only their Clerics; but by dangerous and violent groups of extreme or fundamentalist Muslims who pressure (through threats not only to them, but also their families) Clerics to manipulate the masses into hatred and violence.

He claims the objective or crusade has always been to target the west and manipulate and draw the West into a final showdown with Islam.

Long ago the West of their target was basically the UK, but they expanded their hate to the USA.

He also warns Americans of the danger of being seduced and swindled by the lies and propaganda of fundamentalist or extremist Muslims and their attempts to portray themselves as victims and extract sympathy and pity from the weak of mind.

His exact words: " You can not reason with them. You can not speak logic to them. You can not understand them. Because there is nothing more to understand. "