the pope is in hot water with the muslim world

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  • hippiemom wrote:
    I understand that, and I'm not unsympathetic to their plight. I certainly do see that the average peaceable Muslim is being made to look bad. All I'm saying is that if they want to be seen differently by the world, they're going to have to present themselves differently to the world. What they say to their god is between them and their god, but what they say to the world is a public relations problem and they need to approach it from a public relations standpoint. And this nonsense of protesting every time someone says something they don't like is doing them way more harm than good. Just think how many people they'd win over if they'd laugh at the pope over something like this, rather than getting themselves all in an uproar.

    Yes, I agree. I'm not saying their methods are good by any means. I'm only trying to understand where they are coming from. If only they would apply more logical reasoning to life than religious craziness.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Yes, I agree. I'm not saying their methods are good by any means. I'm only trying to understand where they are coming from. If only they would apply more logical reasoning to life than religious craziness.


    Its coming from brainwashing and not knowing anything different because their leaders close off their societies to the outside world.
  • dg1979us wrote:
    Its coming from brainwashing and not knowing anything different because their leaders close off their societies to the outside world.


    You will never hear me argue that religions aren't a form of brainwashing.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • You will never hear me argue that religions aren't a form of brainwashing.

    I dont disagree, but what I am saying is living in an open society even the most christian or jewish people can cut through the bullshit of what there religious leaders say and become rational, informed people. Where as, when your religious leaders decide how society is run and operates and dont allow for the human nature aspect of life to bleed through, then you become really brainwashed and become the type of person who will riot because of a cartoon, or the type of person who will strap a bomb on you and blow yourself up for your religion. Our societies arent comparable and the western society, despite a lot of problems, is most definately a better society. And I dont blame the average saudi or iranian, because when your whole world is wrapped around religion, beyond your control, then there is no way to know any different. And that shows with the cartoon, and with the pope. For most rational societies the cartoon and the popes comments become a point of discussion, not a point of anger.
  • dg1979us wrote:
    I dont disagree, but what I am saying is living in an open society even the most christian or jewish people can cut through the bullshit of what there religious leaders say and become rational, informed people. Where as, when your religious leaders decide how society is run and operates and dont allow for the human nature aspect of life to bleed through, then you become really brainwashed and become the type of person who will riot because of a cartoon, or the type of person who will strap a bomb on you and blow yourself up for your religion. Our societies arent comparable and the western society, despite a lot of problems, is most definately a better society. And I dont blame the average saudi or iranian, because when your whole world is wrapped around religion, beyond your control, then there is no way to know any different. And that shows with the cartoon, and with the pope. For most rational societies the cartoon and the popes comments become a point of discussion, not a point of anger.

    To which I point to suffering. The more suffering in a society, the higher the religious stronghold. Our society maybe religious but we don't take it so literal and let it consume us. We have other things to enjoy and live for.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • To which I point to suffering. The more suffering in a society, the higher the religious stronghold.


    I certainly agree, but it comes from their own leaders more than it comes from the west. Which going back to the pope, their anger should be at their own religious and government leaders, not an outsider who criticizes them.
  • dg1979us wrote:
    I certainly agree, but it comes from their own leaders more than it comes from the west. Which going back to the pope, their anger should be at their own religious and government leaders, not an outsider who criticizes them.

    I guess they think we give a shit like they do what these religious leaders have to say and fear more demonizing and suffering to come their way. They are simply too religious to see these problems are not being helped at all from within. How do you go about urging a people to be less religious for their own good? Man, that's seems tricky.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • I guess they think we give a shit like they do what these religious leaders have to say and fear more demonizing and suffering to come their way. They are simply too religious to see these problems are not being helped at all from within. How do you go about urging a people to be less religious for their own good? Man, that's seems tricky.


    Whoa, my anti-religion post was number 6,666. Freaky...I'm the anti-christ! :D
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • NMyTreeNMyTree Posts: 2,374
    It's coming from anger and hate of anything or anyone who differs from them, whether it be culture or ideology.

    There's no excuse or justification of their actions. These Islamic fundamentalists simply believe in imposing, intimidating, threatening and violently acting out against anyone who dares not believe as they do or question and criticize their history of intolerance and violence.

    Realistically, they are no different than any other whackos from any other religion, who have in the past reacted and acted in the same manner.

    Problem is, Muslims are currently the worst and most violent of them all.

    It's interesting that a good friend of mine who is an immigrant from the Middle East (and Muslim), often claims much of their so-called claims of the West (or anyone else) attacking their religion or culture; are in fact based in contrived falsehoods and duplicitious manipulation by not only their Clerics; but by dangerous and violent groups of extreme or fundamentalist Muslims who pressure (through threats not only to them, but also their families) Clerics to manipulate the masses into hatred and violence.

    He claims the objective or crusade has always been to target the west and manipulate and draw the West into a final showdown with Islam.

    Long ago the West of their target was basically the UK, but they expanded their hate to the USA.

    He also warns Americans of the danger of being seduced and swindled by the lies and propaganda of fundamentalist or extremist Muslims and their attempts to portray themselves as victims and extract sympathy and pity from the weak of mind.

    His exact words: " You can not reason with them. You can not speak logic to them. You can not understand them. Because there is nothing more to understand. "
  • I guess they think we give a shit like they do what these religious leaders have to say and fear more demonizing and suffering to come their way. They are simply too religious to see these problems are not being helped at all from within. How do you go about urging a people to be less religious for their own good? Man, that's seems tricky.



    I think you have a good point that is certainly plausible, neither one of us can say for sure because we dont have that mindset. And it is a difficult situation. Honestly, when you think about it, they are more of the mindset that this country was at during the witch trials. Many of those countries do still have executions for blasphemy, where as our society is well past that stage. I dont know how, or if you can go about getting them to be "rationally religious".
  • fanch75fanch75 Posts: 3,734
    This will balance out the world:

    America - less porn, more religion

    The Middle East - more porn, less religion
    Do you remember Rock & Roll Radio?
  • fanch75 wrote:
    This will balance out the world:

    America - less porn, more religion

    The Middle East - more porn, less religion

    I was actually going to bring in the lack of sex in the middle east as part of their irrational behavior, but I wasnt sure if it actually fit in this discussion. But forbidding human nature and desires in this world, but offering it in the next, is a good way of creating radicals that is for sure.
  • The most encouraging thing about this thread is that nearly everyone is in agreement that the reactions are getting out of control. To me, the reaction is hyperbola. Overeaction.

    It is seems very unbalanced to claim that the Pope is out of line to the point that there need to be riots in the street, condemnation, whatever. I know that people are trying to create equality between Christian fundamentalism (if that is what the Popes statements represent) and Jihad. But there just isn't equality in those things.

    To claim that Christians are starting a holy war is preposterous. Even though there are whackos on the Christian side, they don't represent any holy war against Muslims. Very few people are actually violent in the evangelical community or Catholic community. Those people who do such things (against abortion doctors) are nuts but they are not prominent.

    The Muslim radicals are the ones who demonstrate violence, against us and against their own people. Beheadings, bombings, kidnappings, torture, executions, coercian and fear - that is what they do!

    I know there are peaeceful Muslims everywhere, but there are millions of them that believe in violence too. And teach violence aparently.

    And don't get me started on what they do to women! It is horrid and so twisted what these people do to themselves.
    HOB 10.05.2005, E Rutherford 06.03.2006, The Gorge 07.22.2006, Lolla 08.05.2007, West Palm 06.11.2008, Tampa 06.12.2008, Columbia 06.16.2008, EV Memphis 06.20.2009, New Orleans 05.01.2010, Kansas City 05.03.2010
  • I read the article and it states that there have been protests against the pope's remarks. I don't see anything wrong with non-violent protests, what CNN shows of course, is the burning of an effigy of the Pope by about a group of twenty people. And of course, violence sells. But also in the article, there was non-violent and non-spurring condemnations of the Pope's remarks by leaders of Muslim countries. And there is video of people from the same community of the effigy burners who non-violently stated there opinion, one of them saying he respects all religions. But on this thread there is a focus on the minority of Muslims who chose to act violently. And what I am getting from this thread is that all Muslims are being judged by this minority, which I think is greatly unfair. There are 1 billion plus Muslims worldwide, they all don't look alike, think alike, act alike, they even all have different ways of practicing their religion. What is focused on in this thread from the article and the video is what fits an unfair stereotype, nothing else. Muslims are being judged for not being open, but those who judge them are just as guilty of the same thing.
  • I'm actually embarassed for Muslims.Not only do they look like the dumbest religion in the world for taking to the streets protesting and burning effigies in reaction to completely inoffensive comments but the fact that it took them three days to react makes them look just plain slow.You really can't discuss anything with people that thick.
    It may be the devil or it may be the Lord
    But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

    www.bebo.com/pearljam06
  • purrmo wrote:
    What is focused on in this thread from the article and the video is what fits an unfair stereotype, nothing else. Muslims are being judged for not being open, but those who judge them are just as guilty of the same thing.

    Correct. But it's the Muslims causing problems/killing/raping people in Africa, flying planes into buildings in the US, bombing subways in the UK, blowing up trains in Spain...

    It's not the Christians, Buddhists, Atheists or any other group of people- its the Muslims, so even though there are millions upon millions of rational Muslim people- the stereotype exists for a reason.

    These secular/rational Muslim countries like Turkey need to start speaking up against these lunatics...

    I despise the whole Catholic corporate religion deal but there was nothing wrong with what the Pope said. Plenty of Muslim clerics have spoken out against westerners so I dont see the problem.
    The less you know, the more you believe.
  • I hope the Pope doesn't apologise because then Muslims will believe they can bully anyone into doing as they wish.
    It may be the devil or it may be the Lord
    But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

    www.bebo.com/pearljam06
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    Jammin909 wrote:
    I despise the whole Catholic corporate religion deal but there was nothing wrong with what the Pope said. Plenty of Muslim clerics have spoken out against westerners so I dont see the problem.

    'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'"

    so you think that the pope saying that what mohammed brought that was new was only evil and inhuman is not disrespectful? that the spread of islam is due only to coercion brought about by the sword.
    oh yes i can totally see now how the spread of christianity was so different from this and spread only through love and peace and tolerance. and the awakening of the savage mind and heart to the correct way of worship. give me a break.

    you know it is discussions like this that make me glad i'm an atheist. at least all religions treat me with equal contempt and eternal damnation.
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  • 'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'"

    so you think that the pope saying that what mohammed brought that was new was only evil and inhuman is not disrespectful? that the spread of islam is due only to coercion brought about by the sword.
    oh yes i can totally see now how the spread of christianity was so different from this and spread only through love and peace and tolerance. and the awakening of the savage mind and heart to the correct way of worship. give me a break.

    you know it is discussions like this that make me glad i'm an atheist. at least all religions treat me with equal contempt and eternal damnation.

    The Pope wasn't stating his own opinion,he was quoting.
    It may be the devil or it may be the Lord
    But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

    www.bebo.com/pearljam06
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    Carlos D wrote:
    The Pope wasn't stating his own opinion,he was quoting.

    but he still said it though, right?
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  • but he still said it though, right?

    Yes but you are taking it out of context.It was during a speech which criticised people who use the excuse of religion to justify violence.That was his point,he wasn't directly insulting the Islamic faith or its people but those who believe that it is a justification for violence.
    It may be the devil or it may be the Lord
    But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

    www.bebo.com/pearljam06
  • I know that in Malaysia that the Malays (as opposed from the Chinese or Indians) get tax breaks when buying property that other citizens are not entitled to receive. The Chinese or Indians can receive these advantages if they convert to Islam however. Sharia courts over there will also prosecute a muslim who has sex before marriage. And Malaysia is one of the more progressive Islamic countries. I don't think Islam is the problem per se. Its creating these rules that people have to follow and if they do not their lives are made unbearable (such as your family disowning you). That is not faith, that is doing what you must. Parts of the Islamic world are really where the Christian world was back in the Middle Ages.
    The wind is blowing cold
    Have we lost our way tonight?
    Have we lost our hope to sorrow?

    Feels like were all alone
    Running further from what’s right
    And there are no more heroes to follow

    So what are we becoming?
    Where did we go wrong?
  • Parts of the Islamic world are really where the Christian world was back in the Middle Ages.

    So very true!
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    Carlos D wrote:
    Yes but you are taking it out of context.It was during a speech which criticised people who use the excuse of religion to justify violence.That was his point,he wasn't directly insulting the Islamic faith or its people but those who believe that it is a justification for violence.

    "The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the pope said. "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.' "

    Clearly aware of the sensitivity of the issue, Benedict added, "I quote," twice before pronouncing the phrases on Islam and described them as "brusque," while neither explicitly agreeing with nor repudiating them.

    "The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable," Benedict said.


    i imagine this is the part muslims are having the problem with.


    and the emperor is correct. spreading anything, faith or otherwise, through violence is unreasonable.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • edgarcamp wrote:
    So very true!

    I would say poverty also has a great deal to do with it. I have not travelled there but I am told (and what I've seen in the media) that life in the United Arab Emirates is very good even though its still quite a religious place. As I think abook said when people don't have much else to live for.....
    The wind is blowing cold
    Have we lost our way tonight?
    Have we lost our hope to sorrow?

    Feels like were all alone
    Running further from what’s right
    And there are no more heroes to follow

    So what are we becoming?
    Where did we go wrong?
  • Carlos D wrote:
    Yes but you are taking it out of context.It was during a speech which criticised people who use the excuse of religion to justify violence.That was his point,he wasn't directly insulting the Islamic faith or its people but those who believe that it is a justification for violence.

    Exactly ... Its funny, though. These people are making themselves look really bad. The pope says that spreading religion through violence is bad, and people protest?!!
    I know they obviously didn't understand his point, and the pope perhaps could have made the point more delicately. But still ... These people do not practice critical thinking skills at all? I know a lot of North Americans don't either, but come on!
  • The wanky Al-Qaeda went to Rome to see the pope
    The wanky Al-Qaeda went to Rome to see the pope
    The wanky Al-Qaeda went to Rome to see the pope
    And this is what he said: FUCK OFF!
    A restaurant with a smoking section is like a swimming pool with a pissing section
  • 'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'"

    so you think that the pope saying that what mohammed brought that was new was only evil and inhuman is not disrespectful? that the spread of islam is due only to coercion brought about by the sword.
    oh yes i can totally see now how the spread of christianity was so different from this and spread only through love and peace and tolerance. and the awakening of the savage mind and heart to the correct way of worship. give me a break.

    you know it is discussions like this that make me glad i'm an atheist. at least all religions treat me with equal contempt and eternal damnation.

    No where in my statement did I justify or make excuses for Christian wars.

    Once again- I dont think what he said was wrong, it was his opinion. I don't support the Catholic church but you wont see me out in the streets wasting time throwing rocks over his statements.
    The less you know, the more you believe.
  • kenny olavkenny olav Posts: 3,319
    Wouldn't it be awesome if the Pope went to Mecca, stood atop the Kaaba, picked up a guitar, plugged it in, turned it up to 11, and started playing the opening riff to Black Sabbath's 'Supernaut'? And then a procession of Sunni Mulsims on a pilgrimage would start head banging in unison until Pope Benedict suddenly switched to playing 'Paradise City' at which point President Ahmadinejad of Iran would parachute out of a helicopter with a cordless microphone, and as he drifted down to earth, he belted out "Take me down to the Paradise City, where the grass is green and the girls are pretty" to which a choir of Orthodox Jews would respond "Oh won't you please take me home, yea-yeah!"
  • MrBrianMrBrian Posts: 2,672
    Kenny Olav wrote:
    Wouldn't it be awesome if the Pope went to Mecca, stood atop the Kaaba, picked up a guitar, plugged it in, turned it up to 11, and started playing the opening riff to Black Sabbath's 'Supernaut'? And then a procession of Sunni Mulsims on a pilgrimage would start head banging in unison until Pope Benedict suddenly switched to playing 'Paradise City' at which point President Ahmadinejad of Iran would parachute out of a helicopter with a cordless microphone, and as he drifted down to earth, he belted out "Take me down to the Paradise City, where the grass is green and the girls are pretty" to which a choir of Orthodox Jews would respond "Oh won't you please take me home, yea-yeah!"

    No no no! Now you see, I would find that kinda shit offensive.
    If you are gonna play anything on guitar, it's gotta be hendrix or the ending to pearl jams "alive". blacksabbath? No way dude, no way.
    ----

    To the article/story.

    People should'nt care what other people say, but I can see how comments can be misunderstood. nevertheless as far as the muslim world goes, they do have alot of troubles and a lot of anger due to these troubles, So I again can understand how on edge they may be and how quickly they are to defend themselves from even small insults.

    But perhaps one day when things go better for them as a whole, those emotions that they have will be put into better use. Inshaallah.
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