To spank or not to spank...

even flow? wrote:

I don't think a child should get hammered for nothing. But if your walls are coloured by the child and their markers a time more than once. Maybe twice. Well, obviously, your soft soothing voice ain't quite cutting the grade, eh.

But perhaps then there are still other methods that might work, different punishments, like taking away their markers, making them go to bed early, deny them something...

soulsinging wrote:

so you think hippiemom is unreasonable and lacks self control?

Absolutely not. To the contrary I think she's one of the most reasonable people on the board. BUT you are using the present tense. When she smacked her kid (past tense) I do think she was being unreasonable. And if you notice, it sounds like it was a very rare event, indeed. Everyone has their moments.

soulsinging wrote:

i was spanked. im one of the most non-violent people i know. id like to see even flow' study too. you act like any kid who is ever spanked is inevitably going to become a violent sociopath. history clearly shows this not to be the case.

You are correct. Not every kid who is spanked is going to become a sociopath. But every kid who is spanked will learn to fear the person who hit them. And every kid who is hit will see that authority figure validate hitting as a solution to a problem. I don't need my children to fear me.

even flow? wrote:

I don't think a child should get hammered for nothing. But if your walls are coloured by the child and their markers a time more than once. Maybe twice. Well, obviously, your soft soothing voice ain't quite cutting the grade, eh.

That would be true. In that case I'd 1) take the markers away, and 2) make them work on cleaning the wall, with me supervising. Even a 3 year old can use a sponge and soapy water. The punishment should fit the crime, and be something that rights the wrong committed.

soulsinging wrote:

democracy does not mean no consequences. democracy means you agree on the rules and the consequences. and since when is a family a system of government? that is a ridiculous analogy.

Where did I say there were no consequences? I hold my children accountable, and always have. I don't think they'd want it any other way. It's a psychological fact that when we discover something works for us with problem solving, we keep doing it. It usually takes some pretty serious fallout for us to decide to change our patterns. It's not surprising to me is those who believe in hitting cannot imagine more effective or more humane, respectful childrearing solutions and consequences.

The fact remains, when we teach our children to submit to authority, we teach them to submit to authority. When we teach them how to have freedom of speech out loud, and in their heads, and that by having that freedom they can trust themselves and life, and that they will find within themselves the ability make potent, life-affirming decisions in their best interest, that also is what it is. If you don't see how one governs a family, then I'll just let that go.

I was probably spanked two or three times, but was threatened with it much more so. The threat was all it took.

Spanking ain't no thang. I'm not talking about putting bruises on kids, for those cynical. It's more of a fear thing.

angelica wrote:

Where did I say there were no consequences? I hold my children accountable, and always have. I don't think they'd want it any other way. It's a psychological fact that when we discover something works for us with problem solving, we keep doing it. It usually takes some pretty serious fallout for us to decide to change our patterns. It's not surprising to me is those who believe in hitting cannot imagine more effective or more humane, respectful childrearing solutions and consequences.

The fact remains, when we teach our children to submit to authority, we teach them to submit to authority. When we teach them how to have freedom of speech out loud, and in their heads, and that by having that freedom they can trust themselves and life, and that they will find within themselves the ability make potent, life-affirming decisions in their best interest, that also is what it is. If you don't see how one governs a family, then I'll just let that go.

Said perfectly. There's no way of getting around the fact that hitting a child is resorting to physical violence to solve conflicts. It's saying 'If you don't mind us, you will be spanked.' So the child is taught if I don't want to suffer the feeling of being spanked then I better mind mommy or daddy. It is all about fear or else children wouldn't care if they got spanked or not. It's all about submitting to the authority of the parent for fear of pain. It teaches the child nothing of understanding why their action was wrong and what harm comes from them committing the act. It's about the easiest, less stressful way out for the parent. Children are smart and can be reasoned with unless they are too young...in that case they need constant adult supervision.

between a spanking and a beating. common sense dictates the distance. we don't need more legislation to teach common sense. there are plenty of laws on the books that prohibit parents from abusing their children that a no spank law would probably be unnecessary. the assembly person in question was probably just trying to get press, because a blanket no spank law would never pass.

Collin wrote:

I agree, but I have to say I was hit as a kid, in the face. But when my parents did it, they said why I was being punished, they told me what I did wrong and made me promise not to do it again. I felt that they really didn't want to hit me but it was for my own good.
To be honest, I was more afraid that they'd take away my favourite toy, or would make me go to bed early...

I still think hitting or spanking your child is wrong. If it happens on a rare occasion, when the child does something very dangerous, like hippiemom's example, I do think it adds much more force and the child will understand he did something very wrong and he won't do it again. But when you spank a kid often it either loses its power or it fill the kid with fear, imo.

as stated above, i really think it depends on the child. i think aparent needs to decide what works. spanking/hitting is not something that should be done regularly...but i see so many parents with children running around restaurants, going wild in stores, etc...and then try talking them into behaving, and it just isn't working for them. it is a last resort, but sometimes, i think a parent may need to consider it. children do need to follow the authority of their parents while small....and honestly, as long as they live at home. hopefully as a child ages, the more and more dialogue works between parent and child, the more things get discussed....and thus it is entirely unnecessary. as someone mentioned earlier...'the look' was enough to let you know, enough. fall in line now. being your own person, growing up to be independent...still can happen, quite easily really.

i will say, i have 3 nephews. the oldest, from ym sister's first husband...the best behaved. he was smacked on occasion. rarely, but on occasion. as he got older, it happened less and less. he was a willfull child, and most things got talked about.....but if he truly went over the line, it happened. my second nephew, from her second husband...free reign...never slapped.....and he was a terror. they talked and talked, took away privileges, etc....nothing worked. it was horrific. not saying a spanking would 'solve' problems...but sometimes i think, hmmmm....

bottomline, it's a tough call, and an individual call. everyone has to decide for themselves what is appropriate, what works....and when we are talking just a splap/spank....not being abusive, i think society as a whole has to back off and respect others' choices on what is right within their family. like most things, it's all about finding the proper balance.

Ahnimus wrote:

This is just my personal opinion. But I think parents try to hard to stop their kids from doing wrong, and don't try hard enough to encourage their kids to do right. It's an imbalance, the child learns suppression/negative stimulus only and fails to react appropriately to any stimulus. A child will not miss the positive stimulus if it's not frequent enough to stick in his mind.

This is a really good point, Ahnimus. I notice that a lot of people don't seem to respond to the positive. They are overly mindful of the negative. And from your point, it makes sense now. I'm kinda surprised I've overlooked that cause/effect until now. It's an especially good point for a spanking thread.