Nader asks if Obama will be "Uncle Tom"

decides2dream · November 2008

hailhail82 wrote:

Exactly. I like how people aren't talking about these aspects of Obama's decisions. People are too blinded by the hype to see these completely politics-as-usual actions as completely contradictory to his message of change.

As for Nader, it was a play on words that people might not like but his point stands. But hooray for everybody ignoring the central issue of his comment.

many/most of us acknowledged the obvious play on words...but we also acknowledged how HE CHOSE to sacrifice his message for a play on words. hope it was worth it. he should be well-aware how his words would be taken, rightly or wrongly...and he willingly chose the words he did. HE sacrificed his message, no one else. he easily could've made the SAME message with differing words, leaving the racially loaded language behind. so really, HE ignored his own message for witty wordplay. on the national stage, not the wisest choice. i agree though, sad to see his message lost...but hey, it was HIS choice to word it as such, and for what benefit? i see none....unless all he wanted was air-time.

MrBrian · November 2008

decides2dream wrote:

many/most of us acknowledged the obvious play on words...but we also acknowledged how HE CHOSE to sacrifice his message for a play on words. hope it was worth it. he should be well-aware how his words would be taken, rightly or wrongly...and he willingly chose the words he did. HE sacrificed his message, no one else. he easily could've made the SAME message with differing words, leaving the racially loaded language behind. so really, HE ignored his own message for witty wordplay. on the national stage, not the wisest choice. i agree though, sad to see his message lost...but hey, it was HIS choice to word it as such, and for what benefit? i see none....unless all he wanted was air-time.

So the loss is still not just Naders, it's the countries loss who now will ignore what he says because of their fixation with the remark.

If his entire message is now lost because of that, what does that say about the American people? That they are now turned off from the truth or what is valid because of the witty words.

Sad indeed.

VictoryGin · November 2008

MrBrian wrote:

So the loss is still not just Naders, it's the countries loss who now will ignore what he says because of their fixation with the remark.

If his entire message is now lost because of that, what does that say about the American people? That they are now turned off from the truth or what is valid because of the witty words.

Sad indeed.

what it says about the american people is that they don't think nader is worthwhile or credible enough to look past his awful choice of words.

decides2dream · November 2008

MrBrian wrote:

So the loss is still not just Naders, it's the countries loss who now will ignore what he says because of their fixation with the remark.

If his entire message is now lost because of that, what does that say about the American people? That they are now turned off from the truth or what is valid because of the witty words.

Sad indeed.

he should know better, period. you want to put the 'fault' with the american people, so be it. obviously, it's also the 'fault' of the american people that they chose obama as their president. witty words or not, perhaps the american people aren't all that interested in what nader offers, period. for you, you might consider it a loss...for many others, not so much. he is not a world leader, and his choice of expression proves it all the more to me. we can go back and forth on it, turn it round and round...it's all perspective. evidently my perspective is quite different from yours. i far prefer nader the consumer advocate. for me, there he is quite relevant. even 'truth'...hmmm...who knows? anyhoo..whatever. again, in my mind it was HIS CHOICE to sacrifice his message to witty words, not the other way round. if just being able to throw out the 'uncle sam or uncle tom' comment was worth it, entirely up to him. again, bottomline...if obama weren't a black man, he'd not have chosen such 'witty words.'

sad indeed, is right.

btw - if not for this thread...i'd not have even known about nader's words, period.

Urban Hiker · November 2008

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6DefCmUsCPs

Let's just say it's a sore point amongst the African-American community.

Pffft. I think the great Muhammad Ali would have had the same response from Ernie Terrel had he used the lengthier expression "You are a sell out to the black people." Uncle Tom had a better ring to it.

Thanks for the clip. I don't watch many sports, have never been in a fight, but I do like to watch a good boxing match now and then.

Urban Hiker · November 2008

decides2dream wrote:

btw - if not for this thread...i'd not have even known about nader's words, period.

That's 'cause nobody made a big deal about it, especially in relation to other recent celebrities and public figures who have been deemed to commit racial faux pas in the past few years.

I don't even think that Jesse Jackson has said anything about it. :eek:

MrBrian · November 2008

decides2dream wrote:

he should know better, period. you want to put the 'fault' with the american people, so be it. obviously, it's also the 'fault' of the american people that they chose obama as their president. witty words or not, perhaps the american people aren't all that interested in what nader offers, period. for you, you might consider it a loss...for many others, not so much. he is not a world leader, and his choice of expression proves it all the more to me. we can go back and forth on it, turn it round and round...it's all perspective. evidently my perspective is quite different from yours. i far prefer nader the consumer advocate. for me, there he is quite relevant. even 'truth'...hmmm...who knows? anyhoo..whatever. again, in my mind it was HIS CHOICE to sacrifice his message to witty words, not the other way round. if just being able to throw out the 'uncle sam or uncle tom' comment was worth it, entirely up to him. again, bottomline...if obama weren't a black man, he'd not have chosen such 'witty words.'

sad indeed, is right.

btw - if not for this thread...i'd not have even known about nader's words, period.

Question, what do you think about Naders views? His ideas? His policies?
Say on foreign Policy, social issues?

Have you compared them to Obama? If not, you should.

FinsburyParkCarrots · November 2008

Urban Hiker wrote:

Pffft. I think the great Muhammad Ali would have had the same response from Ernie Terrel had he used the lengthier expression "You are a sell out to the black people." Uncle Tom had a better ring to it.

Thanks for the clip. I don't watch many sports, have never been in a fight, but I do like to watch a good boxing match now and then.

Nope. Ali knew the full, loaded relevance of the term "Uncle Tom", as did Terrell. The animosity there was not staged, and Ali's beating of Terrell was sadistic, as said in the clip. Don't forget that this was 1967, when he was about to be stripped of his title for not fighting in Vietnam. The Nation of Islam was loathed then, as now.

My point is, Ali knew damned well how inflammatory the term was, and used it for maximum effect. If that's how bad things get when one African American male calls another an Uncle Tom, imagine how pissed off you'd be when a whiney, skinny white man uses the term.

MrBrian · November 2008

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

Nope. Ali knew the full, loaded relevance of the term "Uncle Tom", as did Terrell. The animosity there was not staged, and Ali's beating of Terrell was sadistic, as said in the clip. Don't forget that this was 1967, when he was about to be stripped of his title for not fighting in Vietnam. The Nation of Islam was loathed then, as now.

My point is, Ali knew damned well how inflammatory the term was, and used it for maximum effect. If that's how bad things get when one African American male calls another an Uncle Tom, imagine how pissed off you'd be when a whiney, skinny white man uses the term.

When you say 'whiney, skinny white man' is that just general or you have someone in mind?

anyway, He refused to call Ali 'Muhammad' and kept on calling him clay, thats why Ali beat him like that, didnt wanna knock him down, just wanted to beat him enough to make it pain. Loved that fight!

FinsburyParkCarrots · November 2008

MrBrian wrote:

When you say 'whiney, skinny white man' is that just general or you have someone in mind?

Yeah, him:

http://k41.pbase.com/u41/kayakbiker/upload/34084346.NaderCrashingthepartymed.jpg

FiveB247x · November 2008

I agree 100% with Nader's comments. For anyone to argue with his point is merely ignoring the reality of our system and complaining at the harshness of his comments which aren't racist in any way, shape or form.

Rhinocerous Surprise · November 2008

I've been thinking about this... There's a whole other notion here that people have missed entirely... he did say Obama could prove to be an Uncle Sam. Uncle Sam being, almost always, conceived of as an elderly white guy. I don't think Nader was using the term "Uncle Tom" based on Obama's race at all - more on stereotypes of character than skin colour. So in retrospect, I respect for Nader refusing to take back what he said - he wasn't calling anyone an Uncle Tom, or an Uncle Sam, or even an Uncle Buck. He was just making a valid point which people rushed to misinterpret to varying degrees.

decides2dream · November 2008

MrBrian wrote:

Question, what do you think about Naders views? His ideas? His policies?
Say on foreign Policy, social issues?

Have you compared them to Obama? If not, you should.

given that NONE of that is the point of this particular thread, why ask here?
what i think and believe about nader's views and ideas, or obama's, are absolutely irrelevant for the topic of discussion. there's been plenty of discussion for that the past months....THIS thread is focused soley on language. however, yes, i made an informed choice before i voted.

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I've been thinking about this... There's a whole other notion here that people have missed entirely... he did say Obama could prove to be an Uncle Sam. Uncle Sam being, almost always, conceived of as an elderly white guy. I don't think Nader was using the term "Uncle Tom" based on Obama's race at all - more on stereotypes of character than skin colour. So in retrospect, I respect for Nader refusing to take back what he said - he wasn't calling anyone an Uncle Tom, or an Uncle Sam, or even an Uncle Buck. He was just making a valid point which people rushed to misinterpret to varying degrees.

i cannot speak for anyone else, all i can say is it was not missed. i completely understood the anaology and absolutely realize he did NOT call obama an 'uncle sam' or an 'uncle tom'....but rather questioning what obama may turn out to be, an either/or.....all part of the wordplay. got it.

however, no matter how you spin it, if obama were not a black man i doubt very, very highly if nader would've chosen such language. that is IT, to me, for this topic of discussion. ANY other president elect, as in any other white guy...h'ed have found some other, witty wordplay. that's all.

personally, i have not rushed to misinterpret his message, and most here really didn't seem to either. just analyzing the language, why he would choose it.....and sure, still come to the same conclusion: a poor choice.

i respect nader for his consumer advocacy, not for his word choice in this instance. as i've said, for someone who hoped to be a world leader....simply not the wisest choice to make...however tis his choice to make absolutely.

freindlyfired · November 2008

"people get more upset with a perceived racial slur than they do reality"

decides2dream · November 2008

freindlyfired wrote:

"people get more upset with a perceived racial slur than they do reality"

who's 'upset'.....?
i don't see anyone 'upset.'
someone started a thread to discuss it, i'd hardly call that upset.

El_Kabong · November 2008

VictoryGin wrote:

i don't even know what you're asking with much of this. uncle tom isn't a negative thing? that's not even my point though. my point is that nader is an idiot because of course people are going to seize upon that statement and that's what is getting played. not nader's supposedly amazing and benevolent professional citizenry.

and as for your last question: there certainly is going to be more positive change than there would have been under a mccain presidency. to ignore that is dumb. or maybe it's just nice and safe because you're never going to have to be held accountable for your beliefs and actions.

so you have nothing to say about obama losing the pennsylvania primary and blaming it on the voters clinging to their guns, religion and being anti-immigrant?? wasn't that 'dumb', too? does it make him 'a class act'?

El_Kabong · November 2008

decides2dream wrote:

i'm sorry, i missed this post the first time around...and due to my anal-rententive nature , have to go back and address it.

hmmmmm...as a black man? seriously? wtf difference does that make? so if her were not be a black man, it would be ok? i kinda miss the point right there. however, even as a black man, i still miss it. how is it racially charged for a black man, or ANYone really...to possibly say "you lost a primary b/c the voters cling to their guns and religion and are anti-immigrant??" hmmmm....is obama an immigrant, too anmti-gun or too anti-religion? i seriously miss the point. and black, white or otherwise..i apparently am blind to the 'racially charged' nature of the comment. whereas saying 'as a black man' does indeed seem racially charged, as does saying 'i hope he wants to be an uncle sam and not an uncle tom.' but i guess that's just me.

i fail to see the correlation. 'uncle tom' is used as a derogatory slur and only to those of african-american descent. saying one didnd't vote for a candidate, rightly or wrongly in the assessment..due to clinging to guns, reliigion..or being anti-immigrant does not possess any racial slur that i can decipher. it may be incorrect, it may be slanted...but it's no racial or cultural slur. ANYone could possess any of those traits, regardless of race..whereas an 'uncle tom' is clear a reference only to an african-american. for me, therein lies the BIG difference. for you, maybe not so much...i have no idea.

that's all.

it rerally comes down to what you find acceptable or unacceptable for apublic figure, especially one trying to convince the world that he is indeed a leader and a world leader....if using such terminolgy is ok or not. if you think it is...cool. i do not. and so it goes. that was the only discussion/point of this thread as far as i can tell from the OP.

so if nader had said he lost the election b/c ppl clung to their guns, religion and were anti-immigrant you all would be perfectly fine w/ it?

El_Kabong · November 2008

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

Nope. Ali knew the full, loaded relevance of the term "Uncle Tom", as did Terrell. The animosity there was not staged, and Ali's beating of Terrell was sadistic, as said in the clip. Don't forget that this was 1967, when he was about to be stripped of his title for not fighting in Vietnam. The Nation of Islam was loathed then, as now.

My point is, Ali knew damned well how inflammatory the term was, and used it for maximum effect. If that's how bad things get when one African American male calls another an Uncle Tom, imagine how pissed off you'd be when a whiney, skinny white man uses the term.

again, there is a difference between calling someone a liar and saying 'we'll see if you are a liar or not'

MrBrian · November 2008

decides2dream wrote:

given that NONE of that is the point of this particular thread, why ask here?
what i think and believe about nader's views and ideas, or obama's, are absolutely irrelevant for the topic of discussion. there's been plenty of discussion for that the past months....THIS thread is focused soley on language. however, yes, i made an informed choice before i voted.

It is, you brought up "perhaps the american people aren't all that interested in what nader offers, period. for you, you might consider it a loss...for many others, not so much."

I want to know, in this thread, in this time, your views.

I asked a question in that other post of mine. I feel it will tie into this debate very well.

Rhinocerous Surprise · November 2008

decides2dream wrote:

i cannot speak for anyone else, all i can say is it was not missed. i completely understood the anaology and absolutely realize he did NOT call obama an 'uncle sam' or an 'uncle tom'....but rather questioning what obama may turn out to be, an either/or.....all part of the wordplay. got it.

however, no matter how you spin it, if obama were not a black man i doubt very, very highly if nader would've chosen such language. that is IT, to me, for this topic of discussion. ANY other president elect, as in any other white guy...h'ed have found some other, witty wordplay. that's all.

Well, yeah, but we all know Obama is black. Would people be having such problems with Nader if he had asked if Obama would be "the first black president to sell out to big business"? The point I was making was, even if Nader's wordplay was in part based on Obama's skin colour, its intention wasn't, as far as I can tell, to judge him based on that in any way. Otherwise, he would've said Apollo Creed instead of Uncle Sam.

Nader asks if Obama will be "Uncle Tom"

Comments

Categories