Exactly. I like how people aren't talking about these aspects of Obama's decisions. People are too blinded by the hype to see these completely politics-as-usual actions as completely contradictory to his message of change.
As for Nader, it was a play on words that people might not like but his point stands. But hooray for everybody ignoring the central issue of his comment.
many/most of us acknowledged the obvious play on words...but we also acknowledged how HE CHOSE to sacrifice his message for a play on words. hope it was worth it. he should be well-aware how his words would be taken, rightly or wrongly...and he willingly chose the words he did. HE sacrificed his message, no one else. he easily could've made the SAME message with differing words, leaving the racially loaded language behind. so really, HE ignored his own message for witty wordplay. on the national stage, not the wisest choice. i agree though, sad to see his message lost...but hey, it was HIS choice to word it as such, and for what benefit? i see none....unless all he wanted was air-time.
many/most of us acknowledged the obvious play on words...but we also acknowledged how HE CHOSE to sacrifice his message for a play on words. hope it was worth it. he should be well-aware how his words would be taken, rightly or wrongly...and he willingly chose the words he did. HE sacrificed his message, no one else. he easily could've made the SAME message with differing words, leaving the racially loaded language behind. so really, HE ignored his own message for witty wordplay. on the national stage, not the wisest choice. i agree though, sad to see his message lost...but hey, it was HIS choice to word it as such, and for what benefit? i see none....unless all he wanted was air-time.
So the loss is still not just Naders, it's the countries loss who now will ignore what he says because of their fixation with the remark.
If his entire message is now lost because of that, what does that say about the American people? That they are now turned off from the truth or what is valid because of the witty words.
So the loss is still not just Naders, it's the countries loss who now will ignore what he says because of their fixation with the remark.
If his entire message is now lost because of that, what does that say about the American people? That they are now turned off from the truth or what is valid because of the witty words.
Sad indeed.
what it says about the american people is that they don't think nader is worthwhile or credible enough to look past his awful choice of words.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
So the loss is still not just Naders, it's the countries loss who now will ignore what he says because of their fixation with the remark.
If his entire message is now lost because of that, what does that say about the American people? That they are now turned off from the truth or what is valid because of the witty words.
Sad indeed.
he should know better, period. you want to put the 'fault' with the american people, so be it. obviously, it's also the 'fault' of the american people that they chose obama as their president. witty words or not, perhaps the american people aren't all that interested in what nader offers, period. for you, you might consider it a loss...for many others, not so much. he is not a world leader, and his choice of expression proves it all the more to me. we can go back and forth on it, turn it round and round...it's all perspective. evidently my perspective is quite different from yours. i far prefer nader the consumer advocate. for me, there he is quite relevant. even 'truth'...hmmm...who knows? anyhoo..whatever. again, in my mind it was HIS CHOICE to sacrifice his message to witty words, not the other way round. if just being able to throw out the 'uncle sam or uncle tom' comment was worth it, entirely up to him. again, bottomline...if obama weren't a black man, he'd not have chosen such 'witty words.'
sad indeed, is right.
btw - if not for this thread...i'd not have even known about nader's words, period.
Let's just say it's a sore point amongst the African-American community.
Pffft. I think the great Muhammad Ali would have had the same response from Ernie Terrel had he used the lengthier expression "You are a sell out to the black people." Uncle Tom had a better ring to it.
Thanks for the clip. I don't watch many sports, have never been in a fight, but I do like to watch a good boxing match now and then.
Walking can be a real trip
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
btw - if not for this thread...i'd not have even known about nader's words, period.
That's 'cause nobody made a big deal about it, especially in relation to other recent celebrities and public figures who have been deemed to commit racial faux pas in the past few years.
I don't even think that Jesse Jackson has said anything about it. :eek:
Walking can be a real trip
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
he should know better, period. you want to put the 'fault' with the american people, so be it. obviously, it's also the 'fault' of the american people that they chose obama as their president. witty words or not, perhaps the american people aren't all that interested in what nader offers, period. for you, you might consider it a loss...for many others, not so much. he is not a world leader, and his choice of expression proves it all the more to me. we can go back and forth on it, turn it round and round...it's all perspective. evidently my perspective is quite different from yours. i far prefer nader the consumer advocate. for me, there he is quite relevant. even 'truth'...hmmm...who knows? anyhoo..whatever. again, in my mind it was HIS CHOICE to sacrifice his message to witty words, not the other way round. if just being able to throw out the 'uncle sam or uncle tom' comment was worth it, entirely up to him. again, bottomline...if obama weren't a black man, he'd not have chosen such 'witty words.'
sad indeed, is right.
btw - if not for this thread...i'd not have even known about nader's words, period.
Question, what do you think about Naders views? His ideas? His policies?
Say on foreign Policy, social issues?
Have you compared them to Obama? If not, you should.
Pffft. I think the great Muhammad Ali would have had the same response from Ernie Terrel had he used the lengthier expression "You are a sell out to the black people." Uncle Tom had a better ring to it.
Thanks for the clip. I don't watch many sports, have never been in a fight, but I do like to watch a good boxing match now and then.
Nope. Ali knew the full, loaded relevance of the term "Uncle Tom", as did Terrell. The animosity there was not staged, and Ali's beating of Terrell was sadistic, as said in the clip. Don't forget that this was 1967, when he was about to be stripped of his title for not fighting in Vietnam. The Nation of Islam was loathed then, as now.
My point is, Ali knew damned well how inflammatory the term was, and used it for maximum effect. If that's how bad things get when one African American male calls another an Uncle Tom, imagine how pissed off you'd be when a whiney, skinny white man uses the term.
Nope. Ali knew the full, loaded relevance of the term "Uncle Tom", as did Terrell. The animosity there was not staged, and Ali's beating of Terrell was sadistic, as said in the clip. Don't forget that this was 1967, when he was about to be stripped of his title for not fighting in Vietnam. The Nation of Islam was loathed then, as now.
My point is, Ali knew damned well how inflammatory the term was, and used it for maximum effect. If that's how bad things get when one African American male calls another an Uncle Tom, imagine how pissed off you'd be when a whiney, skinny white man uses the term.
When you say 'whiney, skinny white man' is that just general or you have someone in mind?
anyway, He refused to call Ali 'Muhammad' and kept on calling him clay, thats why Ali beat him like that, didnt wanna knock him down, just wanted to beat him enough to make it pain. Loved that fight!
I agree 100% with Nader's comments. For anyone to argue with his point is merely ignoring the reality of our system and complaining at the harshness of his comments which aren't racist in any way, shape or form.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I've been thinking about this... There's a whole other notion here that people have missed entirely... he did say Obama could prove to be an Uncle Sam. Uncle Sam being, almost always, conceived of as an elderly white guy. I don't think Nader was using the term "Uncle Tom" based on Obama's race at all - more on stereotypes of character than skin colour. So in retrospect, I respect for Nader refusing to take back what he said - he wasn't calling anyone an Uncle Tom, or an Uncle Sam, or even an Uncle Buck. He was just making a valid point which people rushed to misinterpret to varying degrees.
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
Question, what do you think about Naders views? His ideas? His policies?
Say on foreign Policy, social issues?
Have you compared them to Obama? If not, you should.
given that NONE of that is the point of this particular thread, why ask here?
what i think and believe about nader's views and ideas, or obama's, are absolutely irrelevant for the topic of discussion. there's been plenty of discussion for that the past months....THIS thread is focused soley on language. however, yes, i made an informed choice before i voted.
I've been thinking about this... There's a whole other notion here that people have missed entirely... he did say Obama could prove to be an Uncle Sam. Uncle Sam being, almost always, conceived of as an elderly white guy. I don't think Nader was using the term "Uncle Tom" based on Obama's race at all - more on stereotypes of character than skin colour. So in retrospect, I respect for Nader refusing to take back what he said - he wasn't calling anyone an Uncle Tom, or an Uncle Sam, or even an Uncle Buck. He was just making a valid point which people rushed to misinterpret to varying degrees.
i cannot speak for anyone else, all i can say is it was not missed. i completely understood the anaology and absolutely realize he did NOT call obama an 'uncle sam' or an 'uncle tom'....but rather questioning what obama may turn out to be, an either/or.....all part of the wordplay. got it.
however, no matter how you spin it, if obama were not a black man i doubt very, very highly if nader would've chosen such language. that is IT, to me, for this topic of discussion. ANY other president elect, as in any other white guy...h'ed have found some other, witty wordplay. that's all.
personally, i have not rushed to misinterpret his message, and most here really didn't seem to either. just analyzing the language, why he would choose it.....and sure, still come to the same conclusion: a poor choice.
i respect nader for his consumer advocacy, not for his word choice in this instance. as i've said, for someone who hoped to be a world leader....simply not the wisest choice to make...however tis his choice to make absolutely.
i don't even know what you're asking with much of this. uncle tom isn't a negative thing? that's not even my point though. my point is that nader is an idiot because of course people are going to seize upon that statement and that's what is getting played. not nader's supposedly amazing and benevolent professional citizenry.
and as for your last question: there certainly is going to be more positive change than there would have been under a mccain presidency. to ignore that is dumb. or maybe it's just nice and safe because you're never going to have to be held accountable for your beliefs and actions.
so you have nothing to say about obama losing the pennsylvania primary and blaming it on the voters clinging to their guns, religion and being anti-immigrant?? wasn't that 'dumb', too? does it make him 'a class act'?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i'm sorry, i missed this post the first time around...and due to my anal-rententive nature , have to go back and address it.
hmmmmm...as a black man? seriously? wtf difference does that make? so if her were not be a black man, it would be ok? i kinda miss the point right there. however, even as a black man, i still miss it. how is it racially charged for a black man, or ANYone really...to possibly say "you lost a primary b/c the voters cling to their guns and religion and are anti-immigrant??" hmmmm....is obama an immigrant, too anmti-gun or too anti-religion? i seriously miss the point. and black, white or otherwise..i apparently am blind to the 'racially charged' nature of the comment. whereas saying 'as a black man' does indeed seem racially charged, as does saying 'i hope he wants to be an uncle sam and not an uncle tom.' but i guess that's just me.
i fail to see the correlation. 'uncle tom' is used as a derogatory slur and only to those of african-american descent. saying one didnd't vote for a candidate, rightly or wrongly in the assessment..due to clinging to guns, reliigion..or being anti-immigrant does not possess any racial slur that i can decipher. it may be incorrect, it may be slanted...but it's no racial or cultural slur. ANYone could possess any of those traits, regardless of race..whereas an 'uncle tom' is clear a reference only to an african-american. for me, therein lies the BIG difference. for you, maybe not so much...i have no idea.
that's all.
it rerally comes down to what you find acceptable or unacceptable for apublic figure, especially one trying to convince the world that he is indeed a leader and a world leader....if using such terminolgy is ok or not. if you think it is...cool. i do not. and so it goes. that was the only discussion/point of this thread as far as i can tell from the OP.
so if nader had said he lost the election b/c ppl clung to their guns, religion and were anti-immigrant you all would be perfectly fine w/ it?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Nope. Ali knew the full, loaded relevance of the term "Uncle Tom", as did Terrell. The animosity there was not staged, and Ali's beating of Terrell was sadistic, as said in the clip. Don't forget that this was 1967, when he was about to be stripped of his title for not fighting in Vietnam. The Nation of Islam was loathed then, as now.
My point is, Ali knew damned well how inflammatory the term was, and used it for maximum effect. If that's how bad things get when one African American male calls another an Uncle Tom, imagine how pissed off you'd be when a whiney, skinny white man uses the term.
again, there is a difference between calling someone a liar and saying 'we'll see if you are a liar or not'
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
given that NONE of that is the point of this particular thread, why ask here?
what i think and believe about nader's views and ideas, or obama's, are absolutely irrelevant for the topic of discussion. there's been plenty of discussion for that the past months....THIS thread is focused soley on language. however, yes, i made an informed choice before i voted.
It is, you brought up "perhaps the american people aren't all that interested in what nader offers, period. for you, you might consider it a loss...for many others, not so much."
I want to know, in this thread, in this time, your views.
I asked a question in that other post of mine. I feel it will tie into this debate very well.
i cannot speak for anyone else, all i can say is it was not missed. i completely understood the anaology and absolutely realize he did NOT call obama an 'uncle sam' or an 'uncle tom'....but rather questioning what obama may turn out to be, an either/or.....all part of the wordplay. got it.
however, no matter how you spin it, if obama were not a black man i doubt very, very highly if nader would've chosen such language. that is IT, to me, for this topic of discussion. ANY other president elect, as in any other white guy...h'ed have found some other, witty wordplay. that's all.
Well, yeah, but we all know Obama is black. Would people be having such problems with Nader if he had asked if Obama would be "the first black president to sell out to big business"? The point I was making was, even if Nader's wordplay was in part based on Obama's skin colour, its intention wasn't, as far as I can tell, to judge him based on that in any way. Otherwise, he would've said Apollo Creed instead of Uncle Sam.
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
Well, yeah, but we all know Obama is black. Would people be having such problems with Nader if he had asked if Obama would be "the first black president to sell out to big business"? The point I was making was, even if Nader's wordplay was in part based on Obama's skin colour, its intention wasn't, as far as I can tell, to judge him based on that in any way. Otherwise, he would've said Apollo Creed instead of Uncle Sam.
why does his race even need mentioning, period? i have zero issue with nader, or anyone expressing their hopes, and also their critiques, of obama and his future policies and performance.....as i would ANY president elect, i just see no point in bringing up the color of his skin to do so. it serves no purpose there imo.
as you say, we all know he's black...so why point it out?
as i said...differing perspectives. my points on the subject are pretty clear in my numerous posts on the thread. i also am completely open to disagreement on the matter. however, my opinion on it still stands. poor choice.
friendlyfire.....absolute agreement. and really, no one has to 'deal' with anything in regards to nader since he is not an elected official, just another opinion out there, and that's fine.
so if nader had said he lost the election b/c ppl clung to their guns, religion and were anti-immigrant you all would be perfectly fine w/ it?
i don't know why you keep suggesting this is the same thing. uncle tom is a pejorative racial term these days. saying some cling to guns, religion, and are anti-immigrant is not a pejorative racial statement.
the only thing i can think of is that nader is using uncle tom as stowe originally meant it, since he was alive at the time, obvs. but then that wouldn't make sense because he would be showing respect to obama and painting him in a positive light.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
i don't know why you keep suggesting this is the same thing. uncle tom is a pejorative racial term these days. saying some cling to guns, religion, and are anti-immigrant is not a pejorative racial statement.
the only thing i can think of is that nader is using uncle tom as stowe originally meant it, since he was alive at the time, obvs. but then that wouldn't make sense because he would be showing respect to obama and painting him in a positive light.
then why do you have a problem w/ it if the only thing you can think of is he was painting obama in a positive light????
Uncle Tom is a pejorative for a black person who is perceived by others as behaving in a subservient manner to White American authority figures, or as seeking ingratiation with them by way of unnecessary accommodation. The term Uncle Tom comes from the title character of Harriet Beecher Stowe's novel Uncle Tom's Cabin, although there is debate over whether the character himself is deserving of the pejorative attributed to him. Stowe never meant Uncle Tom to be a degrading character, but the term as a pejorative has developed based on how later versions of the character, stripped of his strength, were depicted on stage.[1]
It is commonly used to describe black people whose political views or allegiances are considered by their critics as detrimental to blacks as a group.
and i still think saying someone didn't vote for me b/c they are anti-immigrant seems a bit centered on race since he is saying they didn't vote for him b/c they don't like certain races
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Well, yeah, but we all know Obama is black. Would people be having such problems with Nader if he had asked if Obama would be "the first black president to sell out to big business"? The point I was making was, even if Nader's wordplay was in part based on Obama's skin colour, its intention wasn't, as far as I can tell, to judge him based on that in any way. Otherwise, he would've said Apollo Creed instead of Uncle Sam.
his intention wasn't? how do you know his intention? if you're right than that actually does mean nader is an idiot because uncle tom is a racial term. it's built in---you can't say you didn't mean it in a racial way or else you'd be ignorant of its definition. uncle tom is a pejorative, just like nigger. do you really think people don't think words like nigger, kike, etc. aren't racial? that's an ignorant argument.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
Uncle Tom is a pejorative for a black person who is perceived by others as behaving in a subservient manner to White American authority figures, or as seeking ingratiation with them by way of unnecessary accommodation. The term Uncle Tom comes from the title character of Harriet Beecher Stowe's novel Uncle Tom's Cabin, although there is debate over whether the character himself is deserving of the pejorative attributed to him. Stowe never meant Uncle Tom to be a degrading character, but the term as a pejorative has developed based on how later versions of the character, stripped of his strength, were depicted on stage.[1]
It is commonly used to describe black people whose political views or allegiances are considered by their critics as detrimental to blacks as a group.
and i still think saying someone didn't vote for me b/c they are anti-immigrant seems a bit centered on race since he is saying they didn't vote for him b/c they don't like certain races
I WAS BEING CLEVER AND SARCASTIC, MAKING A JOKE ABOUT NADER'S AGE. I AM ABLE TO DO THAT BECAUSE I AM LEARNED AND KNOW WHAT UNCLE TOM MEANS.
if you have read anything i've posted i've been stating that uncle tom is a pejorative these days. jesus.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
his intention wasn't? how do you know his intention? if you're right than that actually does mean nader is an idiot because uncle tom is a racial term. it's built in---you can't say you didn't mean it in a racial way or else you'd be ignorant of its definition. uncle tom is a pejorative, just like nigger. do you really think people don't think words like nigger, kike, etc. aren't racial? that's an ignorant argument.
he also said he may be an uncle sam, so was he confused and thought maybe obama was white?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I WAS BEING CLEVER AND SARCASTIC, MAKING A JOKE ABOUT NADER'S AGE. I AM ABLE TO DO THAT BECAUSE I AM LEARNED AND KNOW WHAT UNCLE TOM MEANS.
if you have read anything i've posted i've been stating that uncle tom is a pejorative these days. jesus.
oh, i get it, another petty attack :rolleyes:
but he didn't say obama WAS an uncle tom, he said we'll see, and if obama acts like bush or another corrupt politician than calling him an uncle tom is factually correct, no? he would be acting 'detrimental to blacks as a group.', right?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
he also said he may be an uncle sam, so was he confused and thought maybe obama was white?
cmon now....i am ALL for supporting someone who's ideas you believe in, etc....but really, can you NOT even admit it was a racial remark, and unnecessary?
uncle sam = not a racial term
uncle tom = racial term.
seriously?
can you call anyone other than someone who is black an 'uncle tom'....? whereas 'uncle sam' is a symbol of patriotism, and while sure...an old, white guy.....doesn't mean that no one but old, white men can behave in an 'uncle sam' manner, whereas ONLY someone who is black can behave in an 'uncle tom' manner. sheesh.
but he didn't say obama WAS an uncle tom, he said we'll see, and if obama acts like bush or another corrupt politician than calling him an uncle tom is factually correct, no? he would be acting 'detrimental to blacks as a group.', right?
wouldn't he be acting in a way that is detrimental to US ALL...not just blacks???
so yes, again...NOT about race, or it shouldn't be.
cmon now....i am ALL for supporting someone who's ideas you believe in, etc....but really, can you NOT even admit it was a racial remark, and unnecessary?
uncle sam = not a racial term
uncle tom = racial term.
seriously?
can you call anyone other than someone who is black an 'uncle tom'....? whereas 'uncle sam' is a symbol of patriotism, and while sure...an old, white guy.....doesn't mean that no one but old, white men can behave in an 'uncle sam' manner, whereas ONLY someone who is black can behave in an 'uncle tom' manner. sheesh.
we're bordering on the ridiculous now.
wouldn't he be acting in a way that is detrimental to US ALL...not just blacks???
so yes, again...NOT about race, or it shouldn't be.
sigh did nader call obama an uncle tom? no, he didn't, what he said was correct (that time will tell if obama is a sellout or not) and i think it's far less an offense than saying someone didn't vote for me b/c they don't like immigrants...
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Comments
many/most of us acknowledged the obvious play on words...but we also acknowledged how HE CHOSE to sacrifice his message for a play on words. hope it was worth it. he should be well-aware how his words would be taken, rightly or wrongly...and he willingly chose the words he did. HE sacrificed his message, no one else. he easily could've made the SAME message with differing words, leaving the racially loaded language behind. so really, HE ignored his own message for witty wordplay. on the national stage, not the wisest choice. i agree though, sad to see his message lost...but hey, it was HIS choice to word it as such, and for what benefit? i see none....unless all he wanted was air-time.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
So the loss is still not just Naders, it's the countries loss who now will ignore what he says because of their fixation with the remark.
If his entire message is now lost because of that, what does that say about the American people? That they are now turned off from the truth or what is valid because of the witty words.
Sad indeed.
what it says about the american people is that they don't think nader is worthwhile or credible enough to look past his awful choice of words.
cross the river to the eastside
he should know better, period. you want to put the 'fault' with the american people, so be it. obviously, it's also the 'fault' of the american people that they chose obama as their president. witty words or not, perhaps the american people aren't all that interested in what nader offers, period. for you, you might consider it a loss...for many others, not so much. he is not a world leader, and his choice of expression proves it all the more to me. we can go back and forth on it, turn it round and round...it's all perspective. evidently my perspective is quite different from yours. i far prefer nader the consumer advocate. for me, there he is quite relevant. even 'truth'...hmmm...who knows? anyhoo..whatever. again, in my mind it was HIS CHOICE to sacrifice his message to witty words, not the other way round. if just being able to throw out the 'uncle sam or uncle tom' comment was worth it, entirely up to him. again, bottomline...if obama weren't a black man, he'd not have chosen such 'witty words.'
sad indeed, is right.
btw - if not for this thread...i'd not have even known about nader's words, period.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Pffft. I think the great Muhammad Ali would have had the same response from Ernie Terrel had he used the lengthier expression "You are a sell out to the black people." Uncle Tom had a better ring to it.
Thanks for the clip. I don't watch many sports, have never been in a fight, but I do like to watch a good boxing match now and then.
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
That's 'cause nobody made a big deal about it, especially in relation to other recent celebrities and public figures who have been deemed to commit racial faux pas in the past few years.
I don't even think that Jesse Jackson has said anything about it. :eek:
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
Question, what do you think about Naders views? His ideas? His policies?
Say on foreign Policy, social issues?
Have you compared them to Obama? If not, you should.
Nope. Ali knew the full, loaded relevance of the term "Uncle Tom", as did Terrell. The animosity there was not staged, and Ali's beating of Terrell was sadistic, as said in the clip. Don't forget that this was 1967, when he was about to be stripped of his title for not fighting in Vietnam. The Nation of Islam was loathed then, as now.
My point is, Ali knew damned well how inflammatory the term was, and used it for maximum effect. If that's how bad things get when one African American male calls another an Uncle Tom, imagine how pissed off you'd be when a whiney, skinny white man uses the term.
When you say 'whiney, skinny white man' is that just general or you have someone in mind?
anyway, He refused to call Ali 'Muhammad' and kept on calling him clay, thats why Ali beat him like that, didnt wanna knock him down, just wanted to beat him enough to make it pain. Loved that fight!
Yeah, him:
http://k41.pbase.com/u41/kayakbiker/upload/34084346.NaderCrashingthepartymed.jpg
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
given that NONE of that is the point of this particular thread, why ask here?
what i think and believe about nader's views and ideas, or obama's, are absolutely irrelevant for the topic of discussion. there's been plenty of discussion for that the past months....THIS thread is focused soley on language. however, yes, i made an informed choice before i voted.
i cannot speak for anyone else, all i can say is it was not missed. i completely understood the anaology and absolutely realize he did NOT call obama an 'uncle sam' or an 'uncle tom'....but rather questioning what obama may turn out to be, an either/or.....all part of the wordplay. got it.
however, no matter how you spin it, if obama were not a black man i doubt very, very highly if nader would've chosen such language. that is IT, to me, for this topic of discussion. ANY other president elect, as in any other white guy...h'ed have found some other, witty wordplay. that's all.
personally, i have not rushed to misinterpret his message, and most here really didn't seem to either. just analyzing the language, why he would choose it.....and sure, still come to the same conclusion: a poor choice.
i respect nader for his consumer advocacy, not for his word choice in this instance. as i've said, for someone who hoped to be a world leader....simply not the wisest choice to make...however tis his choice to make absolutely.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
who's 'upset'.....?
i don't see anyone 'upset.'
someone started a thread to discuss it, i'd hardly call that upset.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
so you have nothing to say about obama losing the pennsylvania primary and blaming it on the voters clinging to their guns, religion and being anti-immigrant?? wasn't that 'dumb', too? does it make him 'a class act'?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
so if nader had said he lost the election b/c ppl clung to their guns, religion and were anti-immigrant you all would be perfectly fine w/ it?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
again, there is a difference between calling someone a liar and saying 'we'll see if you are a liar or not'
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
It is, you brought up "perhaps the american people aren't all that interested in what nader offers, period. for you, you might consider it a loss...for many others, not so much."
I want to know, in this thread, in this time, your views.
I asked a question in that other post of mine. I feel it will tie into this debate very well.
why does his race even need mentioning, period? i have zero issue with nader, or anyone expressing their hopes, and also their critiques, of obama and his future policies and performance.....as i would ANY president elect, i just see no point in bringing up the color of his skin to do so. it serves no purpose there imo.
as you say, we all know he's black...so why point it out?
as i said...differing perspectives. my points on the subject are pretty clear in my numerous posts on the thread. i also am completely open to disagreement on the matter. however, my opinion on it still stands. poor choice.
friendlyfire.....absolute agreement. and really, no one has to 'deal' with anything in regards to nader since he is not an elected official, just another opinion out there, and that's fine.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
i don't know why you keep suggesting this is the same thing. uncle tom is a pejorative racial term these days. saying some cling to guns, religion, and are anti-immigrant is not a pejorative racial statement.
the only thing i can think of is that nader is using uncle tom as stowe originally meant it, since he was alive at the time, obvs. but then that wouldn't make sense because he would be showing respect to obama and painting him in a positive light.
cross the river to the eastside
then why do you have a problem w/ it if the only thing you can think of is he was painting obama in a positive light????
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom
Uncle Tom is a pejorative for a black person who is perceived by others as behaving in a subservient manner to White American authority figures, or as seeking ingratiation with them by way of unnecessary accommodation. The term Uncle Tom comes from the title character of Harriet Beecher Stowe's novel Uncle Tom's Cabin, although there is debate over whether the character himself is deserving of the pejorative attributed to him. Stowe never meant Uncle Tom to be a degrading character, but the term as a pejorative has developed based on how later versions of the character, stripped of his strength, were depicted on stage.[1]
It is commonly used to describe black people whose political views or allegiances are considered by their critics as detrimental to blacks as a group.
and i still think saying someone didn't vote for me b/c they are anti-immigrant seems a bit centered on race since he is saying they didn't vote for him b/c they don't like certain races
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
his intention wasn't? how do you know his intention? if you're right than that actually does mean nader is an idiot because uncle tom is a racial term. it's built in---you can't say you didn't mean it in a racial way or else you'd be ignorant of its definition. uncle tom is a pejorative, just like nigger. do you really think people don't think words like nigger, kike, etc. aren't racial? that's an ignorant argument.
cross the river to the eastside
I WAS BEING CLEVER AND SARCASTIC, MAKING A JOKE ABOUT NADER'S AGE. I AM ABLE TO DO THAT BECAUSE I AM LEARNED AND KNOW WHAT UNCLE TOM MEANS.
if you have read anything i've posted i've been stating that uncle tom is a pejorative these days. jesus.
cross the river to the eastside
he also said he may be an uncle sam, so was he confused and thought maybe obama was white?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
oh, i get it, another petty attack :rolleyes:
but he didn't say obama WAS an uncle tom, he said we'll see, and if obama acts like bush or another corrupt politician than calling him an uncle tom is factually correct, no? he would be acting 'detrimental to blacks as a group.', right?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
cmon now....i am ALL for supporting someone who's ideas you believe in, etc....but really, can you NOT even admit it was a racial remark, and unnecessary?
uncle sam = not a racial term
uncle tom = racial term.
seriously?
can you call anyone other than someone who is black an 'uncle tom'....? whereas 'uncle sam' is a symbol of patriotism, and while sure...an old, white guy.....doesn't mean that no one but old, white men can behave in an 'uncle sam' manner, whereas ONLY someone who is black can behave in an 'uncle tom' manner. sheesh.
we're bordering on the ridiculous now.
wouldn't he be acting in a way that is detrimental to US ALL...not just blacks???
so yes, again...NOT about race, or it shouldn't be.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
sigh did nader call obama an uncle tom? no, he didn't, what he said was correct (that time will tell if obama is a sellout or not) and i think it's far less an offense than saying someone didn't vote for me b/c they don't like immigrants...
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way