if you are told lies to sign a contract, how is it valid??

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  • dg1979us
    dg1979us Posts: 568
    gue_barium wrote:
    The kicker is in proving that the Iraq war is illegal. In that case, those soldiers refusing deployment on the grounds the war is illegal, would not be in breach of the contract.

    You could have a point there.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,800
    How can a war that congress voted to engage in be illegal?

    (I'm still waiting to hear what lies are told and whether they are told by all recruiters...)
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Bu$chlager
    Bu$chlager Posts: 500
    gue_barium wrote:
    The kicker is in proving that the Iraq war is illegal. In that case, those soldiers refusing deployment on the grounds the war is illegal, would not be in breach of the contract.

    Too bad the war is legal. And lies are not lies because someone says they are, they have to be proven.
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    i fail to see how saying they signed voluntarily for the army means do whatever they are told regardless ...

    just makes no sense ... you can quit any job in this world why can't you quit the army especially when you realize the implications of what you are being told to do ...

    mind boggling reasoning
  • dg1979us
    dg1979us Posts: 568
    polaris wrote:
    i fail to see how saying they signed voluntarily for the army means do whatever they are told regardless ...

    just makes no sense ... you can quit any job in this world why can't you quit the army especially when you realize the implications of what you are being told to do ...

    mind boggling reasoning


    That isnt true. You cant quit any job in which a contract is involved without breaching that contract, which would involve some type of penalty, usually monetary. Now granted, the military has stiffer penalties, but there are punishments for quitting other jobs if your committments in the contract are not fulfilled.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    know1 wrote:
    By the way, what lies are being told? Is each recruiter telling the same lies?

    Recruiters try to be your new best friend. I still remember my recruiter's name, and I couldn't stand the guy. I was the one that went looking to enlist, not the other way around, but the way he behaved it seemed he had a set pattern on how to handle new prospects. He was calling the house every other day to see how I was doing, etc.. It was ridiculous. Whatever BS he told me went in one ear and out the other. Even at 16, I thought knew what I was getting in to, and the recruiter, at best, was just an unpleasant distraction.
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  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    BUSH-lager wrote:
    Too bad the war is legal.

    That can change. The truth has a way.
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  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    dg1979us wrote:
    That isnt true. You cant quit any job in which a contract is involved without breaching that contract, which would involve some type of penalty, usually monetary. Now granted, the military has stiffer penalties, but there are punishments for quitting other jobs if your committments in the contract are not fulfilled.

    like what? ... so, you don't get paid the rest of your salary ... i'm sure the soldiers don't mind facing relative penalties ... but imprisonment? ... now, we're talking extortion in a way ...

    either way - what's the deal about living in a free country? ... what kind of system punishes a person for not wanting to do what is immoral?
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,800
    gue_barium wrote:
    Recruiters try to be your new best friend. I still remember my recruiter's name, and I couldn't stand the guy. I was the one that went looking to enlist, not the other way around, but the way he behaved it seemed he had a set pattern on how to handle new prospects. He was calling the house every other day to see how I was doing, etc.. It was ridiculous. Whatever BS he told me went in one ear and out the other. Even at 16, I thought knew what I was getting in to, and the recruiter, at best, was just an unpleasant distraction.

    Were they lies? As someone else said, just because someone on here alleges that lies are being told, does not make it true.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • JOEJOEJOE
    JOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,821
    El_Kabong wrote:
    i'm not so sure i agree w/ you on this one...at least for the recruiters...if they are knowingly lying to ppl to get them sent to a war based on more lies and bullshit....i don't find them that innocent.

    if i set girls up w/ my friend who slipped them ruffies(sp) and raped them and i knew he was gonna do this...even if i don't rape them myself i am an accomplice in the act, right?

    and i'm not trying to pigeonhole all recruiters, just the ones who knowingly trick ppl into signing up for this shit

    depraved indifference
  • dg1979us
    dg1979us Posts: 568
    polaris wrote:
    like what? ... so, you don't get paid the rest of your salary ... i'm sure the soldiers don't mind facing relative penalties ... but imprisonment? ... now, we're talking extortion in a way ...

    either way - what's the deal about living in a free country? ... what kind of system punishes a person for not wanting to do what is immoral?

    I said the military penalties are more harsh, but the idea that you can walk away from any job at will with no penalty is not accurate at all. Most of your typical jobs yes, but there are plenty of jobs with contracts involved that limit your ability to just quit and go on your way.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=xkHTYfqwooE
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • decides2dream
    decides2dream Posts: 14,977
    GivenToCarve wrote:
    You sign in agreement with what's on the paper... not what you're verbally told



    bottomline...i believe this is the truth. thus why there ARE written contracts, so that one has a tangible copy of said agreement, no matter what verbal comments/promises may or may not be shared. caveat emptor.
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


    I am myself like you somehow


  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    dg1979us wrote:
    I said the military penalties are more harsh, but the idea that you can walk away from any job at will with no penalty is not accurate at all. Most of your typical jobs yes, but there are plenty of jobs with contracts involved that limit your ability to just quit and go on your way.

    name me one job that would penalize you for quitting on moral grounds? ... all those companies would just be happy you didn't tell the media ...
  • JOEJOEJOE
    JOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,821
    polaris wrote:
    i fail to see how saying they signed voluntarily for the army means do whatever they are told regardless ...

    just makes no sense ... you can quit any job in this world why can't you quit the army especially when you realize the implications of what you are being told to do ...

    mind boggling reasoning

    If you have a contract, they can't really force you to perform, but the employer would be in an actionable position if you are in breach.

    When you enlist, you agree to the Military's terms, which are obviously more strict.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    know1 wrote:
    Were they lies? As someone else said, just because someone on here alleges that lies are being told, does not make it true.

    I've been trying to make the point on this thread that the onus of guilt in regard to military enlistment and the contract isn't on the recruiters and their tactics, it is on the legality of the war itself.
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  • dg1979us
    dg1979us Posts: 568
    polaris wrote:
    name me one job that would penalize you for quitting on moral grounds? ... all those companies would just be happy you didn't tell the media ...


    Dude, if you sign a contract with a company, and you dont fulfill your committment, you can either be sued, forced to pay back a possible signing bonus, not be allowed to work for a competitor for so many years, etc etc. What the hell is the purpose of a contract if they can be opted out of at any given time?
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,800
    gue_barium wrote:
    I've been trying to make the point on this thread that the onus of guilt military enlistments to the contract isn't on the recruiters and their tactics, it is on the legality of the war itself.

    The thread title asks specifically about lies told to sign a contract. That has nothing to do whether this war was legal or not. Besides the legality of the war means nothing to whether there were lies told in the recruiting process.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Staceb10
    Staceb10 Posts: 675
    You have to be able to prove fraud or coercion to get them to enlist. As soon as someone can do that then they can get the contract voided.


    But let me ask you this..do you honestly believe that people that enlist don't realize that if we go to war they would have to fight? That's just ridiculous.
  • decides2dream
    decides2dream Posts: 14,977
    polaris wrote:
    name me one job that would penalize you for quitting on moral grounds? ... all those companies would just be happy you didn't tell the media ...



    if nothing else, i think we all could be in agreement that being in the military is NOT at all like a 'typical job'...so such comparisions not quite on par. i would think the 'moral grounds' should come BEFORE enlisting, not after...although i am sure it is impossible to truly imagine the horrors of being involved in a war, but nonetheless.....especially with a volunteer army, i think it difficult at best to argue as such.


    and..it all depends on what kind of contract one signs, for any job...how detailed, what's involved, etc, etc...there's no saying w/o details of contracts......
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


    I am myself like you somehow


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