Is American Idol Bad?

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  • Jeremy1012
    Jeremy1012 Posts: 7,170
    muppet wrote:
    I'm not making any claim that it's my favourite music, but I enjoy songs like "Umbrella" and "Soulja Boy." They're fun
    Umbrella was the best pop song of 2007 :)
    "I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
  • Igottago
    Igottago Posts: 483
    muppet wrote:
    That's a stupid analogy. With mechanics, there's fundamental stuff that you need to know in order to understand. You need to learn it. That's not the case with music. One persons favourite artist is another persons most hated.

    I probably wouldn't ask a 14 year old girl for an opinion on music, no. But that's becuase I probably wouldn't be into that sort of music.

    To be honest, I think you're coming off as extremelly arrogant. This is music snobbery at its worst. I'm not making any claim that it's my favourite music, but I enjoy songs like "Umbrella" and "Soulja Boy." They're fun. Deep? No, I've got other bands for that. But who the fuck cares about "knowing" more about music? How do you define that? How many obscure B-side vinyls you have got, how many local concerts you've attended?

    At the end of the day, music is subjective. Don't argue that, it just is. Of course there's going to be absoutle shite that you don't like. And of course there's going to be people who think exactly the opposite of you. There's no "golden age" or music, or whatever nostalgia some people seem to worship.

    Hey, you know what, I liked Umbrella too. I'm not saying get rid of all pop music, its all trash. I never once said that.

    So why is music any different to mechanics? Music has theory, science, language behind it. Music does take time to learn, both in playing and listening. Musical tastes develop when you expose yourself to different genres and styles. Why is it that music is somehow purely subjective, when any other subject matter else can be quantified?

    And it can be quanitified, just ask the big record companies. They know what to formulate to sell and make the maximum amount of money. I'm actually arguing for more subjectivity, less quantification.

    You have the basic argument that when it comes to music, every opinion is the same. So why do we come on this message board and talk about different music, and its pros and cons? Whats the point if its all of equal value and an opinon has no weight at all?
  • Jeremy1012
    Jeremy1012 Posts: 7,170
    Igottago wrote:
    So I'm the elitist? i'm not the one who just listed a bunch of obscure music to prove how much i know. The 2 bands I mentioned (Nirvana and Pearl Jam) were simply to define someone who changed an era, and someone who most people here relate to. I wasn't getting into how much I know and how obscure I can go. My musical knowledge goes far beyond that. But I didn't feel the need to list it here.

    Where did I say I judge the 14 year old? I've already stated before there is a place for everything in the musical landscape. I don't judge the 14 year old at all. I'm just not going to regard her musical opinion as the same as someone who goes a bit further with music. I might ask you.

    I knew someone would pull the music snob/elitist card, but I'm not a music snob in the slightest. All I'm doing is putting forth a very solid argument as to why some opinions should be weighted more than others. You can apply this to anything. Next time you need legal advice, don't bother going to a lawyer, I have some opinions on the law, just PM me and I'll take care of you, okay?

    Good for you, you watch the horrible show and you still listen to a lot of other music. You are the exception my friend, not the rule.
    I listed all that music to speak your language, ie that only people who listen to "real" music have valid opinions. Had to get my foot in the door didn't I? If I said "I really Rihanna and Justin Timberlake (which I do) you would've been like "ha, listen to this guy. he doesn't even know what music is" and ignored me. I didn't list them to show off, I listed them to show that some serious music fans are perfectly capable of enjoying shallow entertainment and feel sorry for those who always feel like they have to prove how cool they are and that they're above that sort of thing. I happen to think I have a damn good knowledge of music, yes, and I am not above using to make arrogant people like you look foolish but I'm not smug about it because I don't think it makes me any better than someone who only listens to people who were on American Idol.

    Also, your mechanic/lawyer analogies are not "very solid arguments" at all, they are irrelevant. Mechanics and Law are not subjective. Music is. You will never find a person who knows all there is to know about music so making out like some of us carry more weight with our opinions than others is sheer arrogance and, frankly, just wrong. You and I might know more than the 14 year-old but we're still know fuck all in the grand scheme of things. All I and anyone else can do is keep striving to hear as much as possible, regardless of what patronising dullards have to tell me. American Idol can't stop that.

    As for your "exception, not the rule" comment, as I said earlier in the thread, with a few exceptions, I started seriously listening to music in the 21st century since I'm only 19. I grew up, musically speaking, in this "commercial bullshit" atmosphere and I found my own way, regardless of made-for-tv music shows. Anyone else who has the personality and desire to listen to good music will do the same. Why grieve those who don't? I'm not going to lose sleep over someone who doesn't want to hear "real" music. It's not like a potential future musical genius is going to fall through the cracks because they caught a glimpse of Dave Cook on TV. We're not killing a breed of musicians here. Doesn't work like that.
    "I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
  • Igottago
    Igottago Posts: 483
    Also, its funny how i'm the elitist, yet 2 posters have replied to my posts as stupid.

    Why is it stupid...its just an opinion..remember, an opinon is an opinion...all opions hold equal weight..none of them are stupid.
  • jamie uk
    jamie uk Posts: 3,812
    Jeremy1012 wrote:
    Umbrella was the best pop song of 2007 :)



    I hated it. I even struggle with the Manic Street Preachers version and those guys could sell me a fart recording as a rule.
    I came, I saw, I concurred.....
  • Jeremy1012
    Jeremy1012 Posts: 7,170
    jamie uk wrote:
    I hated it. I even struggle with the Manic Street Preachers version and those guys could sell me a fart recording as a rule.
    :D I hate her voice but I think even she couldn't ruin a song with a hook as good as that and with such great production.
    "I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
  • Jeremy1012
    Jeremy1012 Posts: 7,170
    Igottago wrote:
    Also, its funny how i'm the elitist, yet 2 posters have replied to my posts as stupid.

    Why is it stupid...its just an opinion..remember, an opinon is an opinion...all opions hold equal weight..none of them are stupid.
    I said opinions on music hold equal weight, not on people and what they say.
    "I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
  • Igottago
    Igottago Posts: 483
    Jeremy1012 wrote:

    Also, your mechanic/lawyer analogies are not "very solid arguments" at all, they are irrelevant. Mechanics and Law are not subjective. Music is. You will never find a person who knows all there is to know about music so making out like some of us carry more weight with our opinions than others is sheer arrogance and, frankly, just wrong. You and I might know more than the 14 year-old but we're still know fuck all in the grand scheme of things. All I and anyone else can do is keep striving to hear as much as possible, regardless of what patronising dullards have to tell me. American Idol can't stop that.

    As for your "exception, not the rule" comment, as I said earlier in the thread, with a few exceptions, I started seriously listening to music in the 21st century since I'm only 19. I grew up, musically speaking, in this "commercial bullshit" atmosphere and I found my own way, regardless of made-for-tv music shows. Anyone else who has the personality and desire to listen to good music will do the same. Why grieve those who don't? I'm not going to lose sleep over someone who doesn't want to hear "real" music. It's not like a potential future musical genius is going to fall through the cracks because they caught a glimpse of Dave Cook on TV. We're not killing a breed of musicians here. Doesn't work like that.

    Wait a sec..you just said music is subjective...yet you "seriously" started listening to music in the 21st century..so which is it? Wasn't your music listening at age 15 "serious" as well? I thought you just established that all musical opinion is equally weighted? How could you become a more "serious" music fan if there is no progression, no quantifiable quality to it?

    And law isn't subjective? Tell that to judges, lawyers, and politicians...the law is constantly evolving because of how people interpret it.
  • jamie uk
    jamie uk Posts: 3,812
    I just been reading you guys comments. I see it like this..it's very easy to get steamed up and call this pop music bull shit, and I certainly did as a younger person. But fact is, like has been said, it's all just music really and to start putting the stuff you love on a higher plain is a little pretentious, ever so slightly, and also pretty pointless. Pop music will roll on forever, no need to get steamed up about it, just let it go, and enjoy what you enjoy.......kinda live and let live.
    I read a recent Robert Plant interview, when asked if he got pissed off that all these people just wanted to hear the old Zepp songs, he said "no not at all, to most people music is just confectionary. Personally I'm a bit anal when it coomes to music,....but the I saw Dion recently and went crazy when he played the Wanderer, so I'm also a hypocrite, I love the hits..."

    Just stop worrying about it guys, it won't achieve anything, just like what you like and let everything else slide.
    I came, I saw, I concurred.....
  • muppet
    muppet Posts: 980
    Igottago wrote:
    Hey, you know what, I liked Umbrella too. I'm not saying get rid of all pop music, its all trash. I never once said that.

    So why is music any different to mechanics? Music has theory, science, language behind it. Music does take time to learn, both in playing and listening. Musical tastes develop when you expose yourself to different genres and styles. Why is it that music is somehow purely subjective, when any other subject matter else can be quantified?

    And it can be quanitified, just ask the big record companies. They know what to formulate to sell and make the maximum amount of money. I'm actually arguing for more subjectivity, less quantification.

    You have the basic argument that when it comes to music, every opinion is the same. So why do we come on this message board and talk about different music, and its pros and cons? Whats the point if its all of equal value and an opinon has no weight at all?

    If you're going to look at music like that, i.e. with the theroy and language behind all of it, then I suppose you could make that claim. But to be honest, I highly doubt that the majority of people research into that sort of thing. I know I certinally don't. I just listen to what I feel like. I don't think that makes me superficial at all, but it seems like we have different perspectives on this. My take on the matter is that you're either right or wrong with mechanics, with some obvious, er, 'wiggle room.' I don't think music is like that at all, at least not my understanding of it. I was comparing music to mechanics here, I wasn't talking about "any other subject matter" as well.

    I didn't say every opinion is the same, my point was that you can't really disregard a different opinion because it doesen't fit in with what you think is 'good' music. I'm all for discussion.

    I don't think your post was stupid at all, and I'm sorry if I came across as angry. I just get quite passionate when it comes to these type of debates ;)

    EDIT: The sad thing is, I'm not even a massive fan of American Idol...
  • Jeremy1012
    Jeremy1012 Posts: 7,170
    Igottago wrote:
    Wait a sec..you just said music is subjective...yet you "seriously" started listening to music in the 21st century..so which is it? Wasn't your music listening at age 15 "serious" as well? I thought you just established that all musical opinion is equally weighted? How could you become a more "serious" music fan if there is no progression, no quantifiable quality to it?

    And law isn't subjective? Tell that to judges.
    At what point did I say all people take music as seriously as each other? When I say I seriously started listening to music I mean that it is my greatest love now, I listen to music almost all of the time and I love exploring it, finding out as much as I can about it, writing about it. That doesn't mean that I look back at when I was 9 and listening to Oasis and think "oh jeez, what a tosser I was back then", nor do I think that of people who listen to Oasis and little else now. You are severely misunderstanding me.

    Of course there is good and bad music out there. You seem to think I believe all music is of equal quality. Of course I don't. I like some music more than others. I like some music more than other music that I like also. Fucking hell, I'm a member of a website called rateyourmusic.com on which I rate, review and discuss music. Opinions are very relevant and I like to hear different ones. Difference is, when I rate an album 5/5 on it and someone disagrees with me who I respect the taste of, I'm not going to say either "oh shit yeah, it's not really a 5... maybe it's a 3/5", nor will I say "fuck off, I thought you liked good stuff but I was wrong", I'll just think, ok, different tastes. That's not what this thread is about. It's about a TV programme and whether or not it's a bad thing according to how it effects the music industry and music as an artform. I say not at all. There is still a shiteload of amazing music out there being made constantly. Appreciation of it is what is subjective. If you can find worth in a Def Leppard song, as Jamie here does, more power to you. I hate them but I don't consider Jamie's opinion to be less valuable than mine. I think there is bad music out there but that is what I perceive to be bad music and it's different to other people's opinions. I won't judge them as a person because of it. I feel like I have grown as a listener but of course i'm going to say that, I happen to think my music taste is good, of course I do because I listen to the stuff. I wouldn't do it if I didn't like it.

    The majority of the music I listen to is probably considered "good music" by most people and as I listen to more, I find myself leaving behind mainstream stuff in search of new challenges. I am in fact nothing like the people you fear are being corrupted by American Idol so much but even so, I have no problem with pop music or these types of programmes.
    "I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
  • muppet
    muppet Posts: 980
    The majority of the music I listen to is probably considered "good music" by most people and as I listen to more, I find myself leaving behind mainstream stuff in search of new challenges. I am in fact nothing like the people you fear are being corrupted by American Idol so much but even so, I have no problem with pop music or these types of programmes.

    What is considered "good music" and who do you think measures what is good and isnt?

    I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm just curious. I do think there tends to be a somewhat snobbish attitude to what you should and shouldn't be listening to in magazines like NME or Rolling Stone.
  • Igottago
    Igottago Posts: 483
    muppet wrote:
    What is considered "good music" and who do you think measures what is good and isnt?

    I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm just curious. I do think there tends to be a somewhat snobbish attitude to what you should and shouldn't be listening to in magazines like NME or Rolling Stone.

    LOL....I love it.

    Jeremy1012 has just become what he hates most..a music snob.

    Welcome to the dark side man.
  • muppet
    muppet Posts: 980
    Igottago wrote:
    LOL....I love it.

    Jeremy1012 has just become what he hates most..a music snob.

    Welcome to the dark side man.

    Well, I wasn't trying to say he was a snob but it does seem to undermine his argument a bit.
  • Jeremy1012
    Jeremy1012 Posts: 7,170
    muppet wrote:
    What is considered "good music" and who do you think measures what is good and isnt?

    I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm just curious. I do think there tends to be a somewhat snobbish attitude to what you should and shouldn't be listening to in magazines like NME or Rolling Stone.
    I mean literally my current favourite artists are generally acclaimed by most listeners. That's not to say they are good by sheer virtue of that, although I happen to think so, in my opinion. I don't really care for magazines though, especially NME which I despise. Too based on fashion and not on the music. I tend to go with ordinary people for opinions on music and recommendations because I value personal experience more than a magazine plugging a band to make money or whatever. The band might be great and I might find myself listening at some point but generally not because of a magazine.
    "I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
  • Igottago
    Igottago Posts: 483
    muppet wrote:
    Well, I wasn't trying to say he was a snob but it does seem to undermine his argument a bit.

    Exactly...that's why I love it. He's been going in circles.

    Respect though...none of this is personal, I love a good debate.
  • Jeremy1012
    Jeremy1012 Posts: 7,170
    Igottago wrote:
    LOL....I love it.

    Jeremy1012 has just become what he hates most..a music snob.

    Welcome to the dark side man.
    I think you misunderstood muppet too. Read my reply to him. I couldn't care less what I'm SUPPOSED to be listening to according to any other source. I listen to what I enjoy. Hence my complete lack of regard for anyone who judges anyone else for what they like, like yourself.

    Tell me, where's the snobbery in that?
    "I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
  • Igottago
    Igottago Posts: 483
    Jeremy1012 wrote:
    I think you misunderstood muppet too. Read my reply to him. I couldn't care less what I'm SUPPOSED to be listening to according to any other source. I listen to what I enjoy. Hence my complete lack of regard for anyone who judges anyone else for what they like, like yourself.

    Tell me, where's the snobbery in that?

    Muppet even said that your arguement undermined itself.

    When did I judge anyone? You've painted me with that brush. You've judged me.
  • BinGnarly
    BinGnarly Posts: 508
    American Idol should be on MTV then I would never have to even put up with its commercials. By putting it on MTV I would never even have to glance at this pile of a show.
    Shows:
    San Diego 2003
    Grand Rapids 2004
    Grand Rapids 2006
    Detroit 2006
    Columbus 2010

    "With my own two hands I can change the world."
  • Igottago
    Igottago Posts: 483
    I can't really continue this debate right now, but its been fun. Enjoy the day.

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