Ewww,you like the Monkees? You KNOW they don't write their own songs.
they did on their third album and looked who opened up for them http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:3ifrxqe5ldte~T1
you have to understand that I was in first grade in 1966 and I used to watch the Monkees on tv (prime time.) Same for the Partridge family in 1970.
9/98, 9/00 - DC, 4/03 - Pitt., 7/03 - Bristow, 10/04 - Reading, 10/05 - Philly, 5/06 - DC, 6/06 - Pitt., 6/08 - Va Beach, 6/08 - DC, 5/10 - Bristow, 10/13 B'more
8/08 - Ed solo in DC, 6/09 Ed in B'more,
10/10 - Brad in B'more
they did on their third album and looked who opened up for them http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:3ifrxqe5ldte~T1
you have to understand that I was in first grade in 1966 and I used to watch the Monkees on tv (prime time.) Same for the Partridge family in 1970.
how old are you? I used to like the partridge family too!
what's wrong with the Monkees?
I just used the Monkees and The Partridge Family as examples of shows that allowed you to discover music through tv, which is what AI does. The show(AI) puts music into millions of people's homes weekly, homes that before only had the option of watching Alf and Baywatch etc.
AI creates music fans. Once a music fan, always a music fan. These young people who buy Daughtry's cd don't necessarily grow up liking AI contestants for the rest of their lives. My tastes of music now are nothing liked what I got started on and believe me I was just grateful to have a reason to start my record collection. I don't regret from where I came from, cause I was just a kid.
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Celebration, the ball's in play
Nowadays kids have nothing..everything is pop..everything is plastic, everything is manufactured. Idol is just the tip of the fucking iceberg. And people just eat it up. Who knows, maybe the next Bob Dylan is out there...but we'll never hear him because you people are all "oh American Idol is such a cute show..I don't actually like the music, but damn, some of them can really sing! I wonder who will get voted off next!"
This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever read.
The Monkees didn't stop the Beatles or the Rolling Stones in the 1960's
Star Search didn't stop U2 in the 1980's
New Kids on the Block didn't stop Pearl Jam
American Idol isn't going to destroy anything.
And I say it again, if you think the type of music you like has some substantial quality that pop music doesn't, you are just kidding yourself. It is just music.
I love my female wife...
we sit around and wonder exactly why our marriage should feel threatened by gay marriage
I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
-Reagan
This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever read.
It's not that ridiculous. It's much safer today to produce a show like Idol which is garanteed to make profits even before any album comes out than to bet on a local musician/band. It's not completely because of AI but sources of sure money like this does help.
And I say it again, if you think the type of music you like has some substantial quality that pop music doesn't, you are just kidding yourself. It is just music.
This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever read.
The Monkees didn't stop the Beatles or the Rolling Stones in the 1960's
Star Search didn't stop U2 in the 1980's
New Kids on the Block didn't stop Pearl Jam
American Idol isn't going to destroy anything.
And I say it again, if you think the type of music you like has some substantial quality that pop music doesn't, you are just kidding yourself. It is just music.
the monkees' show was created because of the beatles
(I agree with your statements)
9/98, 9/00 - DC, 4/03 - Pitt., 7/03 - Bristow, 10/04 - Reading, 10/05 - Philly, 5/06 - DC, 6/06 - Pitt., 6/08 - Va Beach, 6/08 - DC, 5/10 - Bristow, 10/13 B'more
8/08 - Ed solo in DC, 6/09 Ed in B'more,
10/10 - Brad in B'more
I don't like david cook. I've only seen him on a TV guide show (with an ex idol) where they recap AI. I can't figure out who DC is trying to be -- brandon boyd?
9/98, 9/00 - DC, 4/03 - Pitt., 7/03 - Bristow, 10/04 - Reading, 10/05 - Philly, 5/06 - DC, 6/06 - Pitt., 6/08 - Va Beach, 6/08 - DC, 5/10 - Bristow, 10/13 B'more
8/08 - Ed solo in DC, 6/09 Ed in B'more,
10/10 - Brad in B'more
A lot of good opinions on both sides and what I like best about the show is that it brings music into people's homes, front and center, twice a week. Strictly based on the entertainment value it can be that bad. I would much rather have people enjoy AI rather than Dancing with Stars or shitty sit coms. People who didn't know who Bon Jovi and Tony Bennett are, now know, and now they have opinions based on real experience...be it good or bad...and who to say who's bad? Certainly Dolly Parton and Mariah Carey deserve some credit, whether you personally like them or not.
Everyone young kid start off liking cheese(I did) but as we grow older us kids who loved Britney, Back Street Men, The Monkees etc start to look around and they even sometimes find that their parent's music really isn't that bad, afterall. Or better yet they take their own path to find out what's valid. I notice it when I go to see Eric Clapton...young kids everywhere and that can't be a bad thing for music. Exposure to all kinds of music makes music fans. I'm not saying David Cook is the new Clapton but AI does open the door so people can find out more, if they so choose.
I absolutely love how some people rave about how this show is so bad and bad for the industry. It's actually comical to see people get so bent outta shape. Maybe it threatens their beliefs that pop music is actually kinda ok. Who ever mentioned Carrie Underwood is spot on. She's got the goods and so does Daughtry and David Cook, and this coming from someone who has seen it all and is an expert...cause ain't we all
finally, a reply that i like. all of us have to remember that we were once very young and listen to stuff that we would not like now but we grow up and with our interest in music in us we grow to listen to other music with so-called cred. i think it is great that kids are getting into music even if i don't like the music.
also i find it very funny that people talk abotu coroprate music as being bad but want the bands that they like to get a bigger push from those same coroporation.
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
finally, a reply that i like. all of us have to remember that we were once very young and listen to stuff that we would not like now but we grow up and with our interest in music in us we grow to listen to other music with so-called cred. i think it is great that kids are getting into music even if i don't like the music.
also i find it very funny that people talk abotu coroprate music as being bad but want the bands that they like to get a bigger push from those same coroporation.
agreed - that was a good response.
there are things about the show i do not like - but they seem to be trying to improve. now they allow contestants to play instruments. the back up band is better. in the beginning i felt it was awful. yet, many of the winners have proved to be talented - whether it is your musical taste or not. carrie underwood's voice is phenomenal.
what i also like about the show is that it is one of the very few shows you can sit and watch with your children - family tv - and both enjoy it. it is me and my son's ritual every tuesday and wednesday.
i see the show as an oppty for the "nobody" to be discovered. yes it's commercial and corporate but most music is.
and david cook is the 1st contestant i would actually pay to see. i think he will do some great things
This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever read.
The Monkees didn't stop the Beatles or the Rolling Stones in the 1960's
Star Search didn't stop U2 in the 1980's
New Kids on the Block didn't stop Pearl Jam
American Idol isn't going to destroy anything.
And I say it again, if you think the type of music you like has some substantial quality that pop music doesn't, you are just kidding yourself. It is just music.
You can't compare the musical landscape of yesteryear to what we have today. The industry has changed drastically. American Idol wont destroy anything, but it is a symptom of a much bigger problem.
And yes, I do think the music I listen to has substantially more quality than whatever is on Idol.
If music is "just music", then it pretty much destroys the reason most of us listens to Pearl Jam...i'm pretty sure most of us get way more out of Pearl Jam than we do out of the latest american Idol..and its a lot more than simply a catchy rythym to tap our foot along to.
By your logic, music = music...therefore Pearl Jam = Nsync.
This is the second season I have watched all the way through. I used to make fun of it . I guess I'm a dork. I am so happy David Cook won. I am really looking forward to what he's going to do.
These cuts are leaving creases. Trace the scars to fit the pieces, to tell the story, you don't need to say a word.
You can't compare the musical landscape of yesteryear to what we have today. The industry has changed drastically. American Idol wont destroy anything, but it is a symptom of a much bigger problem.
And yes, I do think the music I listen to has substantially more quality than whatever is on Idol.
If music is "just music", then it pretty much destroys the reason most of us listens to Pearl Jam...i'm pretty sure most of us get way more out of Pearl Jam
than we do out of the latest american Idol..and its a lot more than simply a catchy rythym to tap our foot along to.
By your logic, music = music...therefore Pearl Jam = Nsync.
Kids, this is what American Idol does to you.
Who's to say that they aren't equal to Pearl Jam? Music doesen't start and end at Pearl Jam.
I don't like Nsync, and I'm sure a lot of other people here don't either - but christ, we're on a Pearl Jam message board. But I know there would be a lot of teenage girls who disagree with you. Is their opinion not valid?
Who's to say that they aren't equal to Pearl Jam? Music doesen't start and end at Pearl Jam.
I don't like Nsync, and I'm sure a lot of other people here don't either - but christ, we're on a Pearl Jam message board. But I know there would be a lot of teenage girls who disagree with you. Is their opinion not valid?
No. You can use anything as an example of why this arguement is flawed on so many levels.
For example: I'm a mechanic...I've spent a lot of my life messing with car engines, studying how they operate, fixing friends cars, getting professional training, etc. Its safe to assume I know my shit when it comes to cars. On the other hand, there is my girlfriend...she knows what a tire is, knows what a steering wheel is, and basically understands that you put gas in a car and go..she bought her car because its a nice shade of red.
Is her opinion valid? Maybe on a very superficial level, sure. But who are you more likely to ask if you're trying to find out about the quality of a car? The mechanic, or the girlfriend?
Its the same thing in music..there are those that spend a lot of time listening to a huge variety of music, seek out new bands, go to a lot of shows, play in bands...and then there is the 14 year old girl who bought nsync because it was the flavour of the day.
Do you honestly think those 2 opinions are equal? If you are looking for some new music to listen to, are you going to ask the 14 year old girl? For your sake, I really hope not.
There is no equality of opinion when it comes to music, or any subject for that matter. There is those who know more, and those who know less. Sure they can express their opinion, but it doesn't hold much weight.
Its the same thing in music..there are those that spend a lot of time listening to a huge variety of music, seek out new bands, go to a lot of shows, play in bands...and then there is the 14 year old girl who bought nsync because it was the flavour of the day.
Do you honestly think those 2 opinions are equal? If you are looking for some new music to listen to, are you going to ask the 14 year old girl? For your sake, I really hope not.
There is no equality of opinion when it comes to music, or any subject for that matter. There is those who know more, and those who know less. Sure they can express their opinion, but it doesn't hold much weight.
Agh. Fighting to stop head exploding from the sheer stupidity of this post.
Listen, I listen to a lot of music. Some very, very obscure and unusual music as well as more popular stuff. I listen to rock, jazz, blues, hardcore punk, classical, electronic, avant-garde, country, dub, hip-hop, klezmer, tango, qawwali, hindustani, noise, drone, ambient, metal. I listen to stuff your average 14 year-old 'Nsync fan will NEVER hear. Even so, the idea that my opinion is somehow more "expert" and of greater weight is SO fucking arrogant. Though I have around 1500 albums covering the genres I mentioned before and more, I will never have heard even 0.1% of the music out there and therefore the idea that I am somehow more knowledgable, while maybe true relatively, is still bullshit. Judging by the bands you have held up as examples of good music so far, limited seemingly to Pearl Jam and Nirvana, you have even less knowledge of music than myself and have simply no basis to your smug elitism. Of course I wouldn't go to a 14 year-old 'Nsync fan for music recommendations but I wouldn't judge her either. Christ almighty.
Here is what I have listened to in the last couple of days:
Ástor Piazzolla - Libertango
Ástor Piazzolla - La Camorra: The Solitude of Passionate Provocation
Eric Dolphy - Iron Man
Pharoah Sanders - Black Unity
Scientifik - Criminal
The Fall - This Nation's Saving Grace
Burning Spear - Marcus Garvey
Augustus Pablo - King Tubbys Meets Rockers Uptown
Scientist - Rids the World of the Evil Curse of the Vampires
Alice Coltrane - Journey in Satchidananda
Conlon Nancarrow - Studies for Player Piano
Isengrind / Twinsistermoon / Natural Snow Buildings - The Snowbringer Cult
Wasted Youth - Reagan's In
Natural Snow Buildings - The Dance of the Moon and the Sun
Li Jianhong - 三生石 (San Sheng Shi)
Hild Sofie Tafjord - Kama
Morton Feldman - Rothko Chapel; Why Patterns?
Planxty - Planxty
Jorge Ben - A Tábua de Esmeralda
Fryderyk Chopin - 24 préludes op.28
Allauddin Khan - Allauddin Khan Saheb
I ENJOY AMERICAN IDOL and other shows like it. Is it doing me harm?
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
No. You can use anything as an example of why this arguement is flawed on so many levels.
For example: I'm a mechanic...I've spent a lot of my life messing with car engines, studying how they operate, fixing friends cars, getting professional training, etc. Its safe to assume I know my shit when it comes to cars. On the other hand, there is my girlfriend...she knows what a tire is, knows what a steering wheel is, and basically understands that you put gas in a car and go..she bought her car because its a nice shade of red.
Is her opinion valid? Maybe on a very superficial level, sure. But who are you more likely to ask if you're trying to find out about the quality of a car? The mechanic, or the girlfriend?
Its the same thing in music..there are those that spend a lot of time listening to a huge variety of music, seek out new bands, go to a lot of shows, play in bands...and then there is the 14 year old girl who bought nsync because it was the flavour of the day.
Do you honestly think those 2 opinions are equal? If you are looking for some new music to listen to, are you going to ask the 14 year old girl? For your sake, I really hope not.
There is no equality of opinion when it comes to music, or any subject for that matter. There is those who know more, and those who know less. Sure they can express their opinion, but it doesn't hold much weight.
That's a stupid analogy. With mechanics, there's fundamental stuff that you need to know in order to understand. You need to learn it. That's not the case with music. One persons favourite artist is another persons most hated.
I probably wouldn't ask a 14 year old girl for an opinion on music, no. But that's becuase I probably wouldn't be into that sort of music.
To be honest, I think you're coming off as extremelly arrogant. This is music snobbery at its worst. I'm not making any claim that it's my favourite music, but I enjoy songs like "Umbrella" and "Soulja Boy." They're fun. Deep? No, I've got other bands for that. But who the fuck cares about "knowing" more about music? How do you define that? How many obscure B-side vinyls you have got, how many local concerts you've attended?
At the end of the day, music is subjective. Don't argue that, it just is. Of course there's going to be absoutle shite that you don't like. And of course there's going to be people who think exactly the opposite of you. There's no "golden age" or music, or whatever nostalgia some people seem to worship.
Agh. Fighting to stop head exploding from the sheer stupidity of this post.
Listen, I listen to a lot of music. Some very, very obscure and unusual music as well as more popular stuff. I listen to rock, jazz, blues, hardcore punk, classical, electronic, avant-garde, country, dub, hip-hop, klezmer, tango, qawwali, hindustani, noise, drone, ambient, metal. I listen to stuff your average 14 year-old 'Nsync fan will NEVER hear. Even so, the idea that my opinion is somehow more "expert" and of greater weight is SO fucking arrogant. Though I have around 1500 albums covering the genres I mentioned before and more, I will never have heard even 0.1% of the music out there and therefore the idea that I am somehow more knowledgable, while maybe true relatively, is still bullshit. Judging by the bands you have held up as examples of good music so far, limited seemingly to Pearl Jam and Nirvana, you have even less knowledge of music than myself and have simply no basis to your smug elitism. Of course I wouldn't go to a 14 year-old 'Nsync fan for music recommendations but I wouldn't judge her either. Christ almighty.
Here is what I have listened to in the last couple of days:
Ástor Piazzolla - Libertango
Ástor Piazzolla - La Camorra: The Solitude of Passionate Provocation
Eric Dolphy - Iron Man
Pharoah Sanders - Black Unity
Scientifik - Criminal
The Fall - This Nation's Saving Grace
Burning Spear - Marcus Garvey
Augustus Pablo - King Tubbys Meets Rockers Uptown
Scientist - Rids the World of the Evil Curse of the Vampires
Alice Coltrane - Journey in Satchidananda
Conlon Nancarrow - Studies for Player Piano
Isengrind / Twinsistermoon / Natural Snow Buildings - The Snowbringer Cult
Wasted Youth - Reagan's In
Natural Snow Buildings - The Dance of the Moon and the Sun
Li Jianhong - 三生石 (San Sheng Shi)
Hild Sofie Tafjord - Kama
Morton Feldman - Rothko Chapel; Why Patterns?
Planxty - Planxty
Jorge Ben - A Tábua de Esmeralda
Fryderyk Chopin - 24 préludes op.28
Allauddin Khan - Allauddin Khan Saheb
I ENJOY AMERICAN IDOL and other shows like it. Is it doing me harm?
So I'm the elitist? i'm not the one who just listed a bunch of obscure music to prove how much i know. The 2 bands I mentioned (Nirvana and Pearl Jam) were simply to define someone who changed an era, and someone who most people here relate to. I wasn't getting into how much I know and how obscure I can go. My musical knowledge goes far beyond that. But I didn't feel the need to list it here.
Where did I say I judge the 14 year old? I've already stated before there is a place for everything in the musical landscape. I don't judge the 14 year old at all. I'm just not going to regard her musical opinion as the same as someone who goes a bit further with music. I might ask you.
I knew someone would pull the music snob/elitist card, but I'm not a music snob in the slightest. All I'm doing is putting forth a very solid argument as to why some opinions should be weighted more than others. You can apply this to anything. Next time you need legal advice, don't bother going to a lawyer, I have some opinions on the law, just PM me and I'll take care of you, okay?
Good for you, you watch the horrible show and you still listen to a lot of other music. You are the exception my friend, not the rule.
I'm not making any claim that it's my favourite music, but I enjoy songs like "Umbrella" and "Soulja Boy." They're fun
Umbrella was the best pop song of 2007
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
That's a stupid analogy. With mechanics, there's fundamental stuff that you need to know in order to understand. You need to learn it. That's not the case with music. One persons favourite artist is another persons most hated.
I probably wouldn't ask a 14 year old girl for an opinion on music, no. But that's becuase I probably wouldn't be into that sort of music.
To be honest, I think you're coming off as extremelly arrogant. This is music snobbery at its worst. I'm not making any claim that it's my favourite music, but I enjoy songs like "Umbrella" and "Soulja Boy." They're fun. Deep? No, I've got other bands for that. But who the fuck cares about "knowing" more about music? How do you define that? How many obscure B-side vinyls you have got, how many local concerts you've attended?
At the end of the day, music is subjective. Don't argue that, it just is. Of course there's going to be absoutle shite that you don't like. And of course there's going to be people who think exactly the opposite of you. There's no "golden age" or music, or whatever nostalgia some people seem to worship.
Hey, you know what, I liked Umbrella too. I'm not saying get rid of all pop music, its all trash. I never once said that.
So why is music any different to mechanics? Music has theory, science, language behind it. Music does take time to learn, both in playing and listening. Musical tastes develop when you expose yourself to different genres and styles. Why is it that music is somehow purely subjective, when any other subject matter else can be quantified?
And it can be quanitified, just ask the big record companies. They know what to formulate to sell and make the maximum amount of money. I'm actually arguing for more subjectivity, less quantification.
You have the basic argument that when it comes to music, every opinion is the same. So why do we come on this message board and talk about different music, and its pros and cons? Whats the point if its all of equal value and an opinon has no weight at all?
So I'm the elitist? i'm not the one who just listed a bunch of obscure music to prove how much i know. The 2 bands I mentioned (Nirvana and Pearl Jam) were simply to define someone who changed an era, and someone who most people here relate to. I wasn't getting into how much I know and how obscure I can go. My musical knowledge goes far beyond that. But I didn't feel the need to list it here.
Where did I say I judge the 14 year old? I've already stated before there is a place for everything in the musical landscape. I don't judge the 14 year old at all. I'm just not going to regard her musical opinion as the same as someone who goes a bit further with music. I might ask you.
I knew someone would pull the music snob/elitist card, but I'm not a music snob in the slightest. All I'm doing is putting forth a very solid argument as to why some opinions should be weighted more than others. You can apply this to anything. Next time you need legal advice, don't bother going to a lawyer, I have some opinions on the law, just PM me and I'll take care of you, okay?
Good for you, you watch the horrible show and you still listen to a lot of other music. You are the exception my friend, not the rule.
I listed all that music to speak your language, ie that only people who listen to "real" music have valid opinions. Had to get my foot in the door didn't I? If I said "I really Rihanna and Justin Timberlake (which I do) you would've been like "ha, listen to this guy. he doesn't even know what music is" and ignored me. I didn't list them to show off, I listed them to show that some serious music fans are perfectly capable of enjoying shallow entertainment and feel sorry for those who always feel like they have to prove how cool they are and that they're above that sort of thing. I happen to think I have a damn good knowledge of music, yes, and I am not above using to make arrogant people like you look foolish but I'm not smug about it because I don't think it makes me any better than someone who only listens to people who were on American Idol.
Also, your mechanic/lawyer analogies are not "very solid arguments" at all, they are irrelevant. Mechanics and Law are not subjective. Music is. You will never find a person who knows all there is to know about music so making out like some of us carry more weight with our opinions than others is sheer arrogance and, frankly, just wrong. You and I might know more than the 14 year-old but we're still know fuck all in the grand scheme of things. All I and anyone else can do is keep striving to hear as much as possible, regardless of what patronising dullards have to tell me. American Idol can't stop that.
As for your "exception, not the rule" comment, as I said earlier in the thread, with a few exceptions, I started seriously listening to music in the 21st century since I'm only 19. I grew up, musically speaking, in this "commercial bullshit" atmosphere and I found my own way, regardless of made-for-tv music shows. Anyone else who has the personality and desire to listen to good music will do the same. Why grieve those who don't? I'm not going to lose sleep over someone who doesn't want to hear "real" music. It's not like a potential future musical genius is going to fall through the cracks because they caught a glimpse of Dave Cook on TV. We're not killing a breed of musicians here. Doesn't work like that.
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
I hated it. I even struggle with the Manic Street Preachers version and those guys could sell me a fart recording as a rule.
I hate her voice but I think even she couldn't ruin a song with a hook as good as that and with such great production.
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
Also, its funny how i'm the elitist, yet 2 posters have replied to my posts as stupid.
Why is it stupid...its just an opinion..remember, an opinon is an opinion...all opions hold equal weight..none of them are stupid.
I said opinions on music hold equal weight, not on people and what they say.
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
Also, your mechanic/lawyer analogies are not "very solid arguments" at all, they are irrelevant. Mechanics and Law are not subjective. Music is. You will never find a person who knows all there is to know about music so making out like some of us carry more weight with our opinions than others is sheer arrogance and, frankly, just wrong. You and I might know more than the 14 year-old but we're still know fuck all in the grand scheme of things. All I and anyone else can do is keep striving to hear as much as possible, regardless of what patronising dullards have to tell me. American Idol can't stop that.
As for your "exception, not the rule" comment, as I said earlier in the thread, with a few exceptions, I started seriously listening to music in the 21st century since I'm only 19. I grew up, musically speaking, in this "commercial bullshit" atmosphere and I found my own way, regardless of made-for-tv music shows. Anyone else who has the personality and desire to listen to good music will do the same. Why grieve those who don't? I'm not going to lose sleep over someone who doesn't want to hear "real" music. It's not like a potential future musical genius is going to fall through the cracks because they caught a glimpse of Dave Cook on TV. We're not killing a breed of musicians here. Doesn't work like that.
Wait a sec..you just said music is subjective...yet you "seriously" started listening to music in the 21st century..so which is it? Wasn't your music listening at age 15 "serious" as well? I thought you just established that all musical opinion is equally weighted? How could you become a more "serious" music fan if there is no progression, no quantifiable quality to it?
And law isn't subjective? Tell that to judges, lawyers, and politicians...the law is constantly evolving because of how people interpret it.
I just been reading you guys comments. I see it like this..it's very easy to get steamed up and call this pop music bull shit, and I certainly did as a younger person. But fact is, like has been said, it's all just music really and to start putting the stuff you love on a higher plain is a little pretentious, ever so slightly, and also pretty pointless. Pop music will roll on forever, no need to get steamed up about it, just let it go, and enjoy what you enjoy.......kinda live and let live.
I read a recent Robert Plant interview, when asked if he got pissed off that all these people just wanted to hear the old Zepp songs, he said "no not at all, to most people music is just confectionary. Personally I'm a bit anal when it coomes to music,....but the I saw Dion recently and went crazy when he played the Wanderer, so I'm also a hypocrite, I love the hits..."
Just stop worrying about it guys, it won't achieve anything, just like what you like and let everything else slide.
Hey, you know what, I liked Umbrella too. I'm not saying get rid of all pop music, its all trash. I never once said that.
So why is music any different to mechanics? Music has theory, science, language behind it. Music does take time to learn, both in playing and listening. Musical tastes develop when you expose yourself to different genres and styles. Why is it that music is somehow purely subjective, when any other subject matter else can be quantified?
And it can be quanitified, just ask the big record companies. They know what to formulate to sell and make the maximum amount of money. I'm actually arguing for more subjectivity, less quantification.
You have the basic argument that when it comes to music, every opinion is the same. So why do we come on this message board and talk about different music, and its pros and cons? Whats the point if its all of equal value and an opinon has no weight at all?
If you're going to look at music like that, i.e. with the theroy and language behind all of it, then I suppose you could make that claim. But to be honest, I highly doubt that the majority of people research into that sort of thing. I know I certinally don't. I just listen to what I feel like. I don't think that makes me superficial at all, but it seems like we have different perspectives on this. My take on the matter is that you're either right or wrong with mechanics, with some obvious, er, 'wiggle room.' I don't think music is like that at all, at least not my understanding of it. I was comparing music to mechanics here, I wasn't talking about "any other subject matter" as well.
I didn't say every opinion is the same, my point was that you can't really disregard a different opinion because it doesen't fit in with what you think is 'good' music. I'm all for discussion.
I don't think your post was stupid at all, and I'm sorry if I came across as angry. I just get quite passionate when it comes to these type of debates
EDIT: The sad thing is, I'm not even a massive fan of American Idol...
Comments
Ewww,you like the Monkees? You KNOW they don't write their own songs.
they did on their third album and looked who opened up for them
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:3ifrxqe5ldte~T1
you have to understand that I was in first grade in 1966 and I used to watch the Monkees on tv (prime time.) Same for the Partridge family in 1970.
8/08 - Ed solo in DC, 6/09 Ed in B'more,
10/10 - Brad in B'more
Sorry, I was quoting The Simpsons
I just used the Monkees and The Partridge Family as examples of shows that allowed you to discover music through tv, which is what AI does. The show(AI) puts music into millions of people's homes weekly, homes that before only had the option of watching Alf and Baywatch etc.
AI creates music fans. Once a music fan, always a music fan. These young people who buy Daughtry's cd don't necessarily grow up liking AI contestants for the rest of their lives. My tastes of music now are nothing liked what I got started on and believe me I was just grateful to have a reason to start my record collection. I don't regret from where I came from, cause I was just a kid.
Celebration, the ball's in play
This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever read.
The Monkees didn't stop the Beatles or the Rolling Stones in the 1960's
Star Search didn't stop U2 in the 1980's
New Kids on the Block didn't stop Pearl Jam
American Idol isn't going to destroy anything.
And I say it again, if you think the type of music you like has some substantial quality that pop music doesn't, you are just kidding yourself. It is just music.
we sit around and wonder exactly why our marriage should feel threatened by gay marriage
-Reagan
What?
the monkees' show was created because of the beatles
(I agree with your statements)
8/08 - Ed solo in DC, 6/09 Ed in B'more,
10/10 - Brad in B'more
8/08 - Ed solo in DC, 6/09 Ed in B'more,
10/10 - Brad in B'more
finally, a reply that i like. all of us have to remember that we were once very young and listen to stuff that we would not like now but we grow up and with our interest in music in us we grow to listen to other music with so-called cred. i think it is great that kids are getting into music even if i don't like the music.
also i find it very funny that people talk abotu coroprate music as being bad but want the bands that they like to get a bigger push from those same coroporation.
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
agreed - that was a good response.
there are things about the show i do not like - but they seem to be trying to improve. now they allow contestants to play instruments. the back up band is better. in the beginning i felt it was awful. yet, many of the winners have proved to be talented - whether it is your musical taste or not. carrie underwood's voice is phenomenal.
what i also like about the show is that it is one of the very few shows you can sit and watch with your children - family tv - and both enjoy it. it is me and my son's ritual every tuesday and wednesday.
i see the show as an oppty for the "nobody" to be discovered. yes it's commercial and corporate but most music is.
and david cook is the 1st contestant i would actually pay to see. i think he will do some great things
thank you David Cook......drinks are on the house
*Official Marker in the Sand Fan Club Junkie*
Member # 0003
wont let the light escape from me
wont let the darkness swallow me
You can't compare the musical landscape of yesteryear to what we have today. The industry has changed drastically. American Idol wont destroy anything, but it is a symptom of a much bigger problem.
And yes, I do think the music I listen to has substantially more quality than whatever is on Idol.
If music is "just music", then it pretty much destroys the reason most of us listens to Pearl Jam...i'm pretty sure most of us get way more out of Pearl Jam than we do out of the latest american Idol..and its a lot more than simply a catchy rythym to tap our foot along to.
By your logic, music = music...therefore Pearl Jam = Nsync.
Kids, this is what American Idol does to you.
Who's to say that they aren't equal to Pearl Jam? Music doesen't start and end at Pearl Jam.
I don't like Nsync, and I'm sure a lot of other people here don't either - but christ, we're on a Pearl Jam message board. But I know there would be a lot of teenage girls who disagree with you. Is their opinion not valid?
No. You can use anything as an example of why this arguement is flawed on so many levels.
For example: I'm a mechanic...I've spent a lot of my life messing with car engines, studying how they operate, fixing friends cars, getting professional training, etc. Its safe to assume I know my shit when it comes to cars. On the other hand, there is my girlfriend...she knows what a tire is, knows what a steering wheel is, and basically understands that you put gas in a car and go..she bought her car because its a nice shade of red.
Is her opinion valid? Maybe on a very superficial level, sure. But who are you more likely to ask if you're trying to find out about the quality of a car? The mechanic, or the girlfriend?
Its the same thing in music..there are those that spend a lot of time listening to a huge variety of music, seek out new bands, go to a lot of shows, play in bands...and then there is the 14 year old girl who bought nsync because it was the flavour of the day.
Do you honestly think those 2 opinions are equal? If you are looking for some new music to listen to, are you going to ask the 14 year old girl? For your sake, I really hope not.
There is no equality of opinion when it comes to music, or any subject for that matter. There is those who know more, and those who know less. Sure they can express their opinion, but it doesn't hold much weight.
Listen, I listen to a lot of music. Some very, very obscure and unusual music as well as more popular stuff. I listen to rock, jazz, blues, hardcore punk, classical, electronic, avant-garde, country, dub, hip-hop, klezmer, tango, qawwali, hindustani, noise, drone, ambient, metal. I listen to stuff your average 14 year-old 'Nsync fan will NEVER hear. Even so, the idea that my opinion is somehow more "expert" and of greater weight is SO fucking arrogant. Though I have around 1500 albums covering the genres I mentioned before and more, I will never have heard even 0.1% of the music out there and therefore the idea that I am somehow more knowledgable, while maybe true relatively, is still bullshit. Judging by the bands you have held up as examples of good music so far, limited seemingly to Pearl Jam and Nirvana, you have even less knowledge of music than myself and have simply no basis to your smug elitism. Of course I wouldn't go to a 14 year-old 'Nsync fan for music recommendations but I wouldn't judge her either. Christ almighty.
Here is what I have listened to in the last couple of days:
Ástor Piazzolla - Libertango
Ástor Piazzolla - La Camorra: The Solitude of Passionate Provocation
Eric Dolphy - Iron Man
Pharoah Sanders - Black Unity
Scientifik - Criminal
The Fall - This Nation's Saving Grace
Burning Spear - Marcus Garvey
Augustus Pablo - King Tubbys Meets Rockers Uptown
Scientist - Rids the World of the Evil Curse of the Vampires
Alice Coltrane - Journey in Satchidananda
Conlon Nancarrow - Studies for Player Piano
Isengrind / Twinsistermoon / Natural Snow Buildings - The Snowbringer Cult
Wasted Youth - Reagan's In
Natural Snow Buildings - The Dance of the Moon and the Sun
Li Jianhong - 三生石 (San Sheng Shi)
Hild Sofie Tafjord - Kama
Morton Feldman - Rothko Chapel; Why Patterns?
Planxty - Planxty
Jorge Ben - A Tábua de Esmeralda
Fryderyk Chopin - 24 préludes op.28
Allauddin Khan - Allauddin Khan Saheb
I ENJOY AMERICAN IDOL and other shows like it. Is it doing me harm?
That's a stupid analogy. With mechanics, there's fundamental stuff that you need to know in order to understand. You need to learn it. That's not the case with music. One persons favourite artist is another persons most hated.
I probably wouldn't ask a 14 year old girl for an opinion on music, no. But that's becuase I probably wouldn't be into that sort of music.
To be honest, I think you're coming off as extremelly arrogant. This is music snobbery at its worst. I'm not making any claim that it's my favourite music, but I enjoy songs like "Umbrella" and "Soulja Boy." They're fun. Deep? No, I've got other bands for that. But who the fuck cares about "knowing" more about music? How do you define that? How many obscure B-side vinyls you have got, how many local concerts you've attended?
At the end of the day, music is subjective. Don't argue that, it just is. Of course there's going to be absoutle shite that you don't like. And of course there's going to be people who think exactly the opposite of you. There's no "golden age" or music, or whatever nostalgia some people seem to worship.
So I'm the elitist? i'm not the one who just listed a bunch of obscure music to prove how much i know. The 2 bands I mentioned (Nirvana and Pearl Jam) were simply to define someone who changed an era, and someone who most people here relate to. I wasn't getting into how much I know and how obscure I can go. My musical knowledge goes far beyond that. But I didn't feel the need to list it here.
Where did I say I judge the 14 year old? I've already stated before there is a place for everything in the musical landscape. I don't judge the 14 year old at all. I'm just not going to regard her musical opinion as the same as someone who goes a bit further with music. I might ask you.
I knew someone would pull the music snob/elitist card, but I'm not a music snob in the slightest. All I'm doing is putting forth a very solid argument as to why some opinions should be weighted more than others. You can apply this to anything. Next time you need legal advice, don't bother going to a lawyer, I have some opinions on the law, just PM me and I'll take care of you, okay?
Good for you, you watch the horrible show and you still listen to a lot of other music. You are the exception my friend, not the rule.
Hey, you know what, I liked Umbrella too. I'm not saying get rid of all pop music, its all trash. I never once said that.
So why is music any different to mechanics? Music has theory, science, language behind it. Music does take time to learn, both in playing and listening. Musical tastes develop when you expose yourself to different genres and styles. Why is it that music is somehow purely subjective, when any other subject matter else can be quantified?
And it can be quanitified, just ask the big record companies. They know what to formulate to sell and make the maximum amount of money. I'm actually arguing for more subjectivity, less quantification.
You have the basic argument that when it comes to music, every opinion is the same. So why do we come on this message board and talk about different music, and its pros and cons? Whats the point if its all of equal value and an opinon has no weight at all?
Also, your mechanic/lawyer analogies are not "very solid arguments" at all, they are irrelevant. Mechanics and Law are not subjective. Music is. You will never find a person who knows all there is to know about music so making out like some of us carry more weight with our opinions than others is sheer arrogance and, frankly, just wrong. You and I might know more than the 14 year-old but we're still know fuck all in the grand scheme of things. All I and anyone else can do is keep striving to hear as much as possible, regardless of what patronising dullards have to tell me. American Idol can't stop that.
As for your "exception, not the rule" comment, as I said earlier in the thread, with a few exceptions, I started seriously listening to music in the 21st century since I'm only 19. I grew up, musically speaking, in this "commercial bullshit" atmosphere and I found my own way, regardless of made-for-tv music shows. Anyone else who has the personality and desire to listen to good music will do the same. Why grieve those who don't? I'm not going to lose sleep over someone who doesn't want to hear "real" music. It's not like a potential future musical genius is going to fall through the cracks because they caught a glimpse of Dave Cook on TV. We're not killing a breed of musicians here. Doesn't work like that.
Why is it stupid...its just an opinion..remember, an opinon is an opinion...all opions hold equal weight..none of them are stupid.
I hated it. I even struggle with the Manic Street Preachers version and those guys could sell me a fart recording as a rule.
Wait a sec..you just said music is subjective...yet you "seriously" started listening to music in the 21st century..so which is it? Wasn't your music listening at age 15 "serious" as well? I thought you just established that all musical opinion is equally weighted? How could you become a more "serious" music fan if there is no progression, no quantifiable quality to it?
And law isn't subjective? Tell that to judges, lawyers, and politicians...the law is constantly evolving because of how people interpret it.
I read a recent Robert Plant interview, when asked if he got pissed off that all these people just wanted to hear the old Zepp songs, he said "no not at all, to most people music is just confectionary. Personally I'm a bit anal when it coomes to music,....but the I saw Dion recently and went crazy when he played the Wanderer, so I'm also a hypocrite, I love the hits..."
Just stop worrying about it guys, it won't achieve anything, just like what you like and let everything else slide.
If you're going to look at music like that, i.e. with the theroy and language behind all of it, then I suppose you could make that claim. But to be honest, I highly doubt that the majority of people research into that sort of thing. I know I certinally don't. I just listen to what I feel like. I don't think that makes me superficial at all, but it seems like we have different perspectives on this. My take on the matter is that you're either right or wrong with mechanics, with some obvious, er, 'wiggle room.' I don't think music is like that at all, at least not my understanding of it. I was comparing music to mechanics here, I wasn't talking about "any other subject matter" as well.
I didn't say every opinion is the same, my point was that you can't really disregard a different opinion because it doesen't fit in with what you think is 'good' music. I'm all for discussion.
I don't think your post was stupid at all, and I'm sorry if I came across as angry. I just get quite passionate when it comes to these type of debates
EDIT: The sad thing is, I'm not even a massive fan of American Idol...