I think the basic premise of the original thought of this de-railed thread is that they probably would have been able to get Mancow to confess to killing Kennedy. Regardless of all the excuses... after 6 seconds he folded... if waterboarded again... then, threatened a third time... he'd confess to anything.
The question that needs to be answered is this:
What is the quality of the information obtained by these tactics? And...
Is the information ALL the information... or just enough to end the interrogation?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
man fucking blood is going too shoot out of my eye balls if we have to go down this road again. Only 3 detainees were water boarded and they were KSM who was one of the master minds of 911 and yeah he was WB like 185 times but so the fuck what he was responsible for the deaths of 3000 people :x and not only did he admit to doing so he was proud of what he and his shit bags did :x
man fucking blood is going too shoot out of my eye balls if we have to go down this road again. Only 3 detainees were water boarded and they were KSM who was one of the master minds of 911 and yeah he was WB like 185 times but so the fuck what he was responsible for the deaths of 3000 people :x and not only did he admit to doing so he was proud of what he and his shit bags did :x
man fucking blood is going too shoot out of my eye balls if we have to go down this road again. Only 3 detainees were water boarded and they were KSM who was one of the master minds of 911 and yeah he was WB like 185 times but so the fuck what he was responsible for the deaths of 3000 people :x and not only did he admit to doing so he was proud of what he and his shit bags did :x
He is alleged to be the mastermind of the USS Cole bombing and other terrorist attacks, who headed al-Qaeda operations in the Persian Gulf and the Gulf states prior to his capture in November of 2002 by the CIA's Special Activities Division
By 1999, the U.S. Government was attempting to run surveillance on Abu Zubaydah.[11] By March 2000, United States officials were reporting that Abu Zubaydah was a "senior bin Laden official", the "former head of Egypt-based Islamic Jihad", a "trusted aide" to bin Laden with "growing power", who had "played a key role in the East Africa embassy attacks."[12]
Internationally Abu Zubaydah was convicted in absentia by a Jordanian court for his alleged role in plots to bomb U.S. and Israeli targets in Jordan.[13] A senior Middle East security official stated Abu Zubaydah had directed the Jordanian cell and was part of “bin Laden’s inner circle."[14]
In August, 2001 a classified FBI report entitled “Bin Laden determined to strike in U.S.”, which would not become public until much later, stated that the foiled millennium bomber, Ahmed Ressam, had confessed that Abu Zubaydah had not only encouraged him to blow up the Los Angeles airport, but had facilitated his mission.[15] The report also claims Abu Zubaydah was planning his own attack on the U.S.[15] An unclassified FBI report also stated that Ahmed Ressam attempted to buy a laptop for Abu Zubaydah.[16] Despite all of these supposed connections, when Ahmed Ressam went to trial in December 2001 federal prosecutors did not attempt to link him to Abu Zubaydah.
man fucking blood is going too shoot out of my eye balls if we have to go down this road again. Only 3 detainees were water boarded and they were KSM who was one of the master minds of 911 and yeah he was WB like 185 times but so the fuck what he was responsible for the deaths of 3000 people :x and not only did he admit to doing so he was proud of what he and his shit bags did :x
Who were the other two?
I think one guy was behind the Cole bombing and I can't remember who the other guy was.
Regardless...we shouldn't torture and as Mancow said, waterboarding IS torture
Don't forget the wording in those that say "alleged" and "reported". Don't get me wrong, these guys are more than likely total dicks that I personally wouldn't care that they were waterboarded or worse. However, like I said earlier, this is America where you are innocent until proven guilty. When we let our moral ground down, that's when we piss people off and make them want to fly airplanes into our buildings.
so just cos MANCOW a washed up dj says so we shouldn't do so ?
What does being a washed up DJ have anything to do with it. I don't care for Mancow. Never have. However, he had the guts to put his views to the test. I'll take his word and Jesse Ventura's view over yours any day. They've been through it. I've yet to see anyone come out who has been waterboarded and said it was anything short of torture.
man fucking blood is going too shoot out of my eye balls if we have to go down this road again. Only 3 detainees were water boarded and they were KSM who was one of the master minds of 911 and yeah he was WB like 185 times but so the fuck what he was responsible for the deaths of 3000 people :x and not only did he admit to doing so he was proud of what he and his shit bags did :x
...
So... based on what you are saying here, the purpose of the waterboarding to get him to admit to the September 11th attacks? I thought we already knew that, which is the reason why we were after him in the first place.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Don't forget the wording in those that say "alleged" and "reported". Don't get me wrong, these guys are more than likely total dicks that I personally wouldn't care that they were waterboarded or worse. However, like I said earlier, this is America where you are innocent until proven guilty. When we let our moral ground down, that's when we piss people off and make them want to fly airplanes into our buildings.
I have a hard time disagreeing with this. but what needs to be noted is this waterboarding took place back in 2002 (I think, maybe someone can confirm).
this was, more or less, immediately after we were attacked. our incompetent government had NO clue if another attack was imminent. they took these drastic steps to prevent that.
I still dont like that fact that we did it based on the reasons listed above and others, but I have a hard time being really pissed off that it happened.
man fucking blood is going too shoot out of my eye balls if we have to go down this road again. Only 3 detainees were water boarded and they were KSM who was one of the master minds of 911 and yeah he was WB like 185 times but so the fuck what he was responsible for the deaths of 3000 people :x and not only did he admit to doing so he was proud of what he and his shit bags did :x
...
So... based on what you are saying here, the purpose of the waterboarding to get him to admit to the September 11th attacks? I thought we already knew that, which is the reason why we were after him in the first place.
no he gave up other info on attacks that were in the works and it led us to more cells
man fucking blood is going too shoot out of my eye balls if we have to go down this road again. Only 3 detainees were water boarded and they were KSM who was one of the master minds of 911 and yeah he was WB like 185 times but so the fuck what he was responsible for the deaths of 3000 people :x and not only did he admit to doing so he was proud of what he and his shit bags did :x
...
So... based on what you are saying here, the purpose of the waterboarding to get him to admit to the September 11th attacks? I thought we already knew that, which is the reason why we were after him in the first place.
no he gave up other info on attacks that were in the works and it led us to more cells
...
Fair enough. Were these other attacks, the 'Big Attack'... or just some other (comparing the September 11th Attacks to the African Embassy Attacks)?
And did he lead us to some of the cells... or all of the cells?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Fair enough. Were these other attacks, the 'Big Attack'... or just some other (comparing the September 11th Attacks to the African Embassy Attacks)?
And did he lead us to some of the cells... or all of the cells?
I dont think the information gained from enhanced interrogations has been made public. (or all of it anyway). I believe this is what Cheney is pushing for. and I would agree. I would love to find read what they found out.
...
Fair enough. Were these other attacks, the 'Big Attack'... or just some other (comparing the September 11th Attacks to the African Embassy Attacks)?
And did he lead us to some of the cells... or all of the cells?
I dont think the information gained from enhanced interrogations has been made public. (or all of it anyway). I believe this is what Cheney is pushing for. and I would agree. I would love to find read what they found out.
...
If they did reveal those results... then, you'd think it would settle this debate, once and for all... right?
...
But, in the case where we are attacked again... it, would start up all over again...
Anti-Torture people would argue that we should have learned about it if the tactics were effective...
Pro-Torture people would argue, if we had continued these tactics... the plot would have been revealed.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Fair enough. Were these other attacks, the 'Big Attack'... or just some other (comparing the September 11th Attacks to the African Embassy Attacks)?
And did he lead us to some of the cells... or all of the cells?
I dont think the information gained from enhanced interrogations has been made public. (or all of it anyway). I believe this is what Cheney is pushing for. and I would agree. I would love to find read what they found out.
...
If they did reveal those results... then, you'd think it would settle this debate, once and for all... right?
...
But, in the case where we are attacked again... it, would start up all over again...
Anti-Torture people would argue that we should have learned about it if the tactics were effective...
Pro-Torture people would argue, if we had continued these tactics... the plot would have been revealed.
I'm perfectly fine with the US never using waterboarding again. I'm also fine with the Bush people using it back in 2002 considering the extreme circumstances. it happened, it wont happen again, lets move on. end of story for me.
...
No need to get all perfectlefts on me... i'm agreeing with you... releasing these memos would clarify a lot of the unknowns in this debate and finally put to rest whether the means justify the ends.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
For what it is worth just to show what kind of guy Mancow is today he had Drew Peterson call from jail about a radio contest called, 'win a conjugal visit with Drew Peterson'. Does anything else need to be explained?
For what it is worth just to show what kind of guy Mancow is today he had Drew Peterson call from jail about a radio contest called, 'win a conjugal visit with Drew Peterson'. Does anything else need to be explained?
Are you trying to discredit a man who was actually waterboarded and said it was torture. He's a shock jock, so while the Drew Peterson thing is stupid and insensitive, it is totally beyond the point. The guy was outspoken, said waterboarding wasn't torture, had the balls to get waterboarded, and now he says it is torture. That's the end of the story. I don't anyone has ever said Mancow is a good guy. He's a total douche. However, he had the balls to do it. I've yet to see anyone else on the "waterboarding isn't torture" side willing to step up and take it.
What should I do give him a medal? Big deal. His opinion, on anything, means nothing to me. In order to discredit someone I would guess they should have some credit to begin with.
What should I do give him a medal? Big deal. His opinion, on anything, means nothing to me. In order to discredit someone I would guess they should have some credit to begin with.
His "credit" came when he was willing to be waterboarded, and was willing to admit he was wrong. To someone with Mancows ego, it's hard to guess which one damaged him more.
So in all those black op prisons around the Middle east and Europe only three got waterboarded?
yes
I find it hard to believe that if such a thing like Abu Ghraib can occur while prisoners were in American custody that only three will be waterboarded in countries where torture is actually normal when it comes to their security systems.
I guess you might be right only three might have been waterboarded but the rest were either beaten, anally probed or electrocuted.
Regardless, as Cosmo said previously I started this thread more on the grounds that once waterboarded someone actually changed their mind. It had nothing to do with America's whole waterboarding problem.
I agree that his opinion is more or less meaningless. But an opinion is what used to have. Now he has experience. Not only can that not be discredited, but it far outweighs the validity of any mere opinion that anyone else has.
For what it is worth just to show what kind of guy Mancow is today he had Drew Peterson call from jail about a radio contest called, 'win a conjugal visit with Drew Peterson'. Does anything else need to be explained?
You got to be shittin me, :shock: :x Maybe some girl will step up and shank his ass in the neck :twisted: :twisted:
0
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Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
The main difference between these scenarios we are watching and the ones that occur in real life is that the person is being waterboarded by someone they know is fearing for their safety. "Oh are you alright" ya like the army guy or the private mercenary waterboarding a suspect is going to care if the person is alright. When you are waterboarded by a person whom you know does not give a shit if you die then I'd like to see you sign up. I'd like to see you willing go into a room to be waterboarded by a killer.
....And some this technique has led situations like these.....
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
The main difference between these scenarios we are watching and the ones that occur in real life is that the person is being waterboarded by someone they know is fearing for their safety. "Oh are you alright" ya like the army guy or the private mercenary waterboarding a suspect is going to care if the person is alright. When you are waterboarded by a person whom you know does not give a shit if you die then I'd like to see you sign up. I'd like to see you willing go into a room to be waterboarded by a killer.
....And some this technique has led situations like these.....
Comments
Just from the previous page of this thread...
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=99258&start=45#p2299864
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
The question that needs to be answered is this:
What is the quality of the information obtained by these tactics? And...
Is the information ALL the information... or just enough to end the interrogation?
Hail, Hail!!!
Who were the other two?
Abd_al-Rahim_al-Nashiri
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Rahim_al-Nashiri
He is alleged to be the mastermind of the USS Cole bombing and other terrorist attacks, who headed al-Qaeda operations in the Persian Gulf and the Gulf states prior to his capture in November of 2002 by the CIA's Special Activities Division
--
Abu_Zubaydah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Zubaydah
By 1999, the U.S. Government was attempting to run surveillance on Abu Zubaydah.[11] By March 2000, United States officials were reporting that Abu Zubaydah was a "senior bin Laden official", the "former head of Egypt-based Islamic Jihad", a "trusted aide" to bin Laden with "growing power", who had "played a key role in the East Africa embassy attacks."[12]
Internationally Abu Zubaydah was convicted in absentia by a Jordanian court for his alleged role in plots to bomb U.S. and Israeli targets in Jordan.[13] A senior Middle East security official stated Abu Zubaydah had directed the Jordanian cell and was part of “bin Laden’s inner circle."[14]
In August, 2001 a classified FBI report entitled “Bin Laden determined to strike in U.S.”, which would not become public until much later, stated that the foiled millennium bomber, Ahmed Ressam, had confessed that Abu Zubaydah had not only encouraged him to blow up the Los Angeles airport, but had facilitated his mission.[15] The report also claims Abu Zubaydah was planning his own attack on the U.S.[15] An unclassified FBI report also stated that Ahmed Ressam attempted to buy a laptop for Abu Zubaydah.[16] Despite all of these supposed connections, when Ahmed Ressam went to trial in December 2001 federal prosecutors did not attempt to link him to Abu Zubaydah.
I think one guy was behind the Cole bombing and I can't remember who the other guy was.
Regardless...we shouldn't torture and as Mancow said, waterboarding IS torture
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
Don't forget the wording in those that say "alleged" and "reported". Don't get me wrong, these guys are more than likely total dicks that I personally wouldn't care that they were waterboarded or worse. However, like I said earlier, this is America where you are innocent until proven guilty. When we let our moral ground down, that's when we piss people off and make them want to fly airplanes into our buildings.
What does being a washed up DJ have anything to do with it. I don't care for Mancow. Never have. However, he had the guts to put his views to the test. I'll take his word and Jesse Ventura's view over yours any day. They've been through it. I've yet to see anyone come out who has been waterboarded and said it was anything short of torture.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
So... based on what you are saying here, the purpose of the waterboarding to get him to admit to the September 11th attacks? I thought we already knew that, which is the reason why we were after him in the first place.
Hail, Hail!!!
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
I have a hard time disagreeing with this. but what needs to be noted is this waterboarding took place back in 2002 (I think, maybe someone can confirm).
this was, more or less, immediately after we were attacked. our incompetent government had NO clue if another attack was imminent. they took these drastic steps to prevent that.
I still dont like that fact that we did it based on the reasons listed above and others, but I have a hard time being really pissed off that it happened.
Fair enough. Were these other attacks, the 'Big Attack'... or just some other (comparing the September 11th Attacks to the African Embassy Attacks)?
And did he lead us to some of the cells... or all of the cells?
Hail, Hail!!!
I dont think the information gained from enhanced interrogations has been made public. (or all of it anyway). I believe this is what Cheney is pushing for. and I would agree. I would love to find read what they found out.
If they did reveal those results... then, you'd think it would settle this debate, once and for all... right?
...
But, in the case where we are attacked again... it, would start up all over again...
Anti-Torture people would argue that we should have learned about it if the tactics were effective...
Pro-Torture people would argue, if we had continued these tactics... the plot would have been revealed.
Hail, Hail!!!
no.
did I say or even imply that it would?
I simply would like to know if it worked or not.
I'm perfectly fine with the US never using waterboarding again. I'm also fine with the Bush people using it back in 2002 considering the extreme circumstances. it happened, it wont happen again, lets move on. end of story for me.
No need to get all perfectlefts on me... i'm agreeing with you... releasing these memos would clarify a lot of the unknowns in this debate and finally put to rest whether the means justify the ends.
Hail, Hail!!!
yes
Are you trying to discredit a man who was actually waterboarded and said it was torture. He's a shock jock, so while the Drew Peterson thing is stupid and insensitive, it is totally beyond the point. The guy was outspoken, said waterboarding wasn't torture, had the balls to get waterboarded, and now he says it is torture. That's the end of the story. I don't anyone has ever said Mancow is a good guy. He's a total douche. However, he had the balls to do it. I've yet to see anyone else on the "waterboarding isn't torture" side willing to step up and take it.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
His "credit" came when he was willing to be waterboarded, and was willing to admit he was wrong. To someone with Mancows ego, it's hard to guess which one damaged him more.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
I find it hard to believe that if such a thing like Abu Ghraib can occur while prisoners were in American custody that only three will be waterboarded in countries where torture is actually normal when it comes to their security systems.
I guess you might be right only three might have been waterboarded but the rest were either beaten, anally probed or electrocuted.
Regardless, as Cosmo said previously I started this thread more on the grounds that once waterboarded someone actually changed their mind. It had nothing to do with America's whole waterboarding problem.
I agree that his opinion is more or less meaningless. But an opinion is what used to have. Now he has experience. Not only can that not be discredited, but it far outweighs the validity of any mere opinion that anyone else has.
You got to be shittin me, :shock: :x Maybe some girl will step up and shank his ass in the neck :twisted: :twisted:
....And some this technique has led situations like these.....
Human Rights Investigator, Attorney John Sifton: Torture Investigation Should Focus on Estimated 100 Prisoner Deaths
US Interrogator in Iraq Says Torture Policy Has Led to Deaths of Thousands of American Soldiers
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Thats some ugly news. The memos says only three were waterboarded though