Let's not forget that these are ALLEGED terrorists. Granted, KSM made it very clear that he was proud of what he was able to accomplish. Now, this is the United States of America. Innocent until proven guilty. If we are going to be the shining city on the hill that Ronnie kept talking about, we have to live up to that standard. We don't torture. While these men were captured in the field of battle, in the United States we give them due process. That doesn't mean that we're "concerned more about the legal rights of terrorists than our own citizens"...it means that we have a moral standing in the world that we have to keep. When we lower our moral standard (torture, Gitmo, Iraq War, blind support for Israel), that's when people get pissed and want to do harm to us.
Of course if one of us were caught in the tribal regions of Pakistan or Afghanistan they would line up like the Ewoks did to C3PO, right? Hardly. Somehow I'm guessing we would be headline news on Al-Jazeera with the beginning of the footage showing some guy in a mask with a big knife and the ending of said footage with your head held high in the air. Dumping water on someone or making people form pyramids in their underwear did not cause that to happen.
Let's not forget that these are ALLEGED terrorists. Granted, KSM made it very clear that he was proud of what he was able to accomplish. Now, this is the United States of America. Innocent until proven guilty. If we are going to be the shining city on the hill that Ronnie kept talking about, we have to live up to that standard. We don't torture. While these men were captured in the field of battle, in the United States we give them due process. That doesn't mean that we're "concerned more about the legal rights of terrorists than our own citizens"...it means that we have a moral standing in the world that we have to keep. When we lower our moral standard (torture, Gitmo, Iraq War, blind support for Israel), that's when people get pissed and want to do harm to us.
Of course if one of us were caught in the tribal regions of Pakistan or Afghanistan they would line up like the Ewoks did to C3PO, right? Hardly. Somehow I'm guessing we would be headline news on Al-Jazeera with the beginning of the footage showing some guy in a mask with a big knife and the ending of said footage with your head held high in the air. Dumping water on someone or making people form pyramids in their underwear did not cause that to happen.
like in somalia , after US forces killed 30,000 people, according to conventional wisdom, they finally got their hand on one of our pilots. they treated him with respect and gave him medical treatment for his wounds and released him.
they're human beings. even if they are hardline militants.
Do you ever defend what our troops do or do you just hate them all of the time?
as soon as people stop signing up to kill, for a paycheck or college education or nationalism or haliburton, when that day comes, we could see the first step in ending war.
do you ever question what they do or do you just blindly support them because that's the nationalist thing to do?
I don't blindly support them, they aren't perfect. However most of what they do is good. For many of these people it is the only way they can afford college, for some it is a way to show a country that gave them citizenship some thanks. Some were born into it and it is a family tradition. I doubt very many are signing up for Halliburton.
Of course if one of us were caught in the tribal regions of Pakistan or Afghanistan they would line up like the Ewoks did to C3PO, right?
The Jawas were cool. The Ugnaughts were cool. Kenny Baker as Artoo was cool. But George had to push his luck. I'd just like to take a moment to remind everyone that the Ewoks were not cool. Period.
I don't blindly support them, they aren't perfect. However most of what they do is good. For many of these people it is the only way they can afford college, for some it is a way to show a country that gave them citizenship some thanks. Some were born into it and it is a family tradition. I doubt very many are signing up for Halliburton.
You will never see the end of war, face reality.
nothing is perfect. trying to come as close as possible -that's the goal. so maybe war won't end. but we sure as hell can avoid things like the Iraq invasion and the afghanistan invasion and the Panama invasion and the overthrow of the democratically elected regimes in Guatamela or Nicaragua, if we care to try.
most of what they do is good? conventional ideology is on my side in this case, that is absolute bullshit. unless your definition of "good" means "good for US business and hegemony" then i suppose your right. but that means us soldiers are fighting and killing and dying for corporate greed and state power. so in a sense, they are fighting for haliburton and its bottom line, for Washington and its sphere of influence.
the only institution with the authority to end war is the UN, and in order for it implement its policies, the US needs to get in line, to cede a little sovereignty for the common good.,
but nationalism and pride and rednecks get in the way of that goal, so we may have a ways to go yet.
Let's not forget that these are ALLEGED terrorists. Granted, KSM made it very clear that he was proud of what he was able to accomplish. Now, this is the United States of America. Innocent until proven guilty. If we are going to be the shining city on the hill that Ronnie kept talking about, we have to live up to that standard. We don't torture. While these men were captured in the field of battle, in the United States we give them due process. That doesn't mean that we're "concerned more about the legal rights of terrorists than our own citizens"...it means that we have a moral standing in the world that we have to keep. When we lower our moral standard (torture, Gitmo, Iraq War, blind support for Israel), that's when people get pissed and want to do harm to us.
Of course if one of us were caught in the tribal regions of Pakistan or Afghanistan they would line up like the Ewoks did to C3PO, right? Hardly. Somehow I'm guessing we would be headline news on Al-Jazeera with the beginning of the footage showing some guy in a mask with a big knife and the ending of said footage with your head held high in the air. Dumping water on someone or making people form pyramids in their underwear did not cause that to happen.
So I guess you don't care how the US is viewed around the world?
I do, but I wouldn't at the sake of sacrificing American lives.
Do you care what people think of you? If someone talks shit behind your back are you going to cry, run away, confront them, beat them up, or are you going to ignore them because they are too much of a coward to say it to your face?
nothing is perfect. trying to come as close as possible -that's the goal. so maybe war won't end. but we sure as hell can avoid things like the Iraq invasion and the afghanistan invasion and the Panama invasion and the overthrow of the democratically elected regimes in Guatamela or Nicaragua, if we care to try.
most of what they do is good? conventional ideology is on my side in this case, that is absolute bullshit. unless your definition of "good" means "good for US business and hegemony" then i suppose your right. but that means us soldiers are fighting and killing and dying for corporate greed and state power. so in a sense, they are fighting for haliburton and its bottom line, for Washington and its sphere of influence.
the only institution with the authority to end war is the UN, and in order for it implement its policies, the US needs to get in line, to cede a little sovereignty for the common good.,
but nationalism and pride and rednecks get in the way of that goal, so we may have a ways to go yet.
So you want a World Government? You are so un-anarchist.
Of course if one of us were caught in the tribal regions of Pakistan or Afghanistan they would line up like the Ewoks did to C3PO, right? Hardly. Somehow I'm guessing we would be headline news on Al-Jazeera with the beginning of the footage showing some guy in a mask with a big knife and the ending of said footage with your head held high in the air. Dumping water on someone or making people form pyramids in their underwear did not cause that to happen.
No, but it will likely continue the trend....everything I've read about these tribes says that they will NEVER be intimidated or forced into submission. attempt to do so, and it becomes an issue of honour and revenge to them.....It's a losing battle, guaran-fucking-teed. or genocide, take your pick. These are the same people the US set up the USSR against to break their economy and spirits!
Torture will only make it worse, unless genocide is your plan. If we're going to try to do business with people living a life based on centuries of tradition, we won't be able to do it by force.
The Star Wars analogy ( :roll: )....So if we are stupid enough to fly to the opposite side of the world, take a bus to the very edge of civilization in Pakistan, wander into the mountains, stumble across a group of Pashtun tribesmen and oops! get beheaded....that's a reason to invade and torture? Fuck, I hope no tourists ever get offed wandering into the wrong 'hood in LA or NY......Cause by that logic, your military has a lot of work to do in your own slums...
I'm a fan of Bourdain, I never would have expected him to be lined up with a guy like Mancow to show him around the city. I'd rather some no-name home towner show him the hidden joints than some windbag transplant.
Let's not forget that these are ALLEGED terrorists. Granted, KSM made it very clear that he was proud of what he was able to accomplish. Now, this is the United States of America. Innocent until proven guilty. If we are going to be the shining city on the hill that Ronnie kept talking about, we have to live up to that standard. We don't torture. While these men were captured in the field of battle, in the United States we give them due process. That doesn't mean that we're "concerned more about the legal rights of terrorists than our own citizens"...it means that we have a moral standing in the world that we have to keep. When we lower our moral standard (torture, Gitmo, Iraq War, blind support for Israel), that's when people get pissed and want to do harm to us.
Of course if one of us were caught in the tribal regions of Pakistan or Afghanistan they would line up like the Ewoks did to C3PO, right? Hardly. Somehow I'm guessing we would be headline news on Al-Jazeera with the beginning of the footage showing some guy in a mask with a big knife and the ending of said footage with your head held high in the air. Dumping water on someone or making people form pyramids in their underwear did not cause that to happen.
like in somalia , after US forces killed 30,000 people, according to conventional wisdom, they finally got their hand on one of our pilots. they treated him with respect and gave him medical treatment for his wounds and released him.
they're human beings. even if they are hardline militants.
when dancing in the streets after a person(s) is murdered.................they are no longer human beings and it speaks volumes for their culture.
Post edited by ajedigecko on
live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
when dancing in the streets after a person(s) is murdered.................they are no longer human beings and it speaks volumes for their culture.
I think it speaks volumes for the conditions they've lived under their whole lives....
Why would these people be so angry that they'd celebrate the death of a young man they didn't know? Not asking that question is akin to fighting terrorism without looking into it's root causes. You're judging a culture with no empathy and no interest in backstory.
when dancing in the streets after a person(s) is murdered.................they are no longer human beings and it speaks volumes for their culture.
I think it speaks volumes for the conditions they've lived under their whole lives....
Why would these people be so angry that they'd celebrate the death of a young man they didn't know? Not asking that question is akin to fighting terrorism without looking into it's root causes. You're judging a culture with no empathy and no interest in backstory.
Um excuse me but I could care less about there goddamn culture.. :x What kind of culture celebrates death ?And you think we should have empathy for a group of people that were responsible for 911 or are Muslim extremist ? :? IMO that's not a culture that's what's called Ideology or what they call Jihad.
Um excuse me but I could care less about there goddamn culture.. :x What kind of culture celebrates death ?And you think we should have empathy for a group of people that were responsible for 911 or are Muslim extremist ? :? IMO that's not a culture that's what's called Ideology or what they call Jihad.
What kind of culture celebrates death ?And you think we should have empathy for a group of people that were responsible for 911 or are Muslim extremist ? :? IMO that's not a culture that's what's called Ideology or what they call Jihad.
So what’s your plan then, bub? Kill ‘em all?
These people have likely lived with violent death, disease and famine as an everyday occurrence for generations….and I’d bet they’ve all been touched by one of these things personally (read: dead friends and family). There is a good chance that they point the fingers at foreign interests when laying blame for these conditions/occurences (directly or thru support of the corrupt govt/warlords that are in control).
Empathy is not just saying, ”oh, if I saw a dead person, I wouldn’t cheer about it; they’re uncivilized….inhuman even” :roll: It’s not looking at THEIR situation from YOUR point of view…it’s putting yourself in their shoes….which entails a lot more than the soundbytes and Hollywood accounts of the story. You have to consider more than that specific moment in time if you’re going to analyze someone’s behaviour, no? It’s not so black and white…
and yes, I suggest you empathize with every sentient being on the planet; why not?….it’s called UNDERSTANDING….try it sometime.
Um excuse me but I could care less about there goddamn culture.. :x What kind of culture celebrates death ?And you think we should have empathy for a group of people that were responsible for 911 or are Muslim extremist ? :? IMO that's not a culture that's what's called Ideology or what they call Jihad.
So when Bush annoucned the Afganistan invasion you didn't cheer Yeah!! Fuck those Arabs!!! Gimme a break. Thats no different to the sentiment that they are displaying but I know your not going to get it :roll:
Nothing smart ass about it. America like the rest of the world jumped as one with a " Yeah! Lets get them fuckers!!!" When Bush announced he was invading Afganistan. Thats the way things work. They cheer when they kill westerners, we cheer when we kill taliban and their bretheren. If you don't want to see that we are one the same when it comes to that because "Your nothing like them" then good luck with that.
My punk ass won't be going anywhere. Kinda like it around here.
Nothing smart ass about it. America like the rest of the world jumped as one with a " Yeah! Lets get them fuckers!!!" When Bush announced he was invading Afganistan. Thats the way things work. They cheer when they kill westerners, we cheer when we kill taliban and their bretheren. If you don't want to see that we are one the same when it comes to that because "Your nothing like them" then good luck with that.
My punk ass won't be going anywhere. Kinda like it around here.
so what makes you so sure of that? and what should we have done when we got attacked Nothing ? what about when Clinton fired missiles into Afghanistan what were your thoughts on that. or better yet Obama is the current president and he's got drones droppin bombs on villages and I haven't heard word out of some of you. your hypocrisy is bull shit
Nothing smart ass about it. America like the rest of the world jumped as one with a " Yeah! Lets get them fuckers!!!" When Bush announced he was invading Afganistan. Thats the way things work. They cheer when they kill westerners, we cheer when we kill taliban and their bretheren. If you don't want to see that we are one the same when it comes to that because "Your nothing like them" then good luck with that.
My punk ass won't be going anywhere. Kinda like it around here.
so what makes you so sure of that? and what should we have done when we got attacked Nothing ? what about when Clinton fired missiles into Afghanistan what were your thoughts on that. or better yet Obama is the current president and he's got drones droppin bombs on villages and I haven't heard word out of some of you. your hypocrisy is bull shit
Your miising the point. You go on about Afganis or Iraqis celebrating the death of a soldier and call it dispicable and can't understand why, when we as a people do the same when we kill a bunch of their militants.
If you want my point of view on the current situation all you had to do was ask. I'm all for chasing down the Taliban and elimianting them but that didn't happen under Bush. He sent a tolken force to Afganistan and took the rest and invaded Iraq which had no Al-Qaeda or Taliban presence there before the invasion. Now Obama wants to push on in Afganistan and scale down the forces in Iraq. I would prefer he withdrew all forces from a Iraq but at least its a step in right direction. As as far as his plans for Afganistan goes I hope he wins the war there. How he does that I don't know. I'm not privy to all the goings on there and what would be the best strategy. I do know is that in the Australian area of operation the Orgunz province they have seen the violence reduced to its lowest level in many years. Maybe he should take a leaf out their book!
so what makes you so sure of that? and what should we have done when we got attacked Nothing ? what about when Clinton fired missiles into Afghanistan what were your thoughts on that. or better yet Obama is the current president and he's got drones droppin bombs on villages and I haven't heard word out of some of you. your hypocrisy is bull shit
I think you'll find that most of the people on the train that have views which oppose yours on war, torture...O'Reily etc, don't care who the president is (or was), or which party he's from, if he continues the foreign policy they disagree with.
Let's not forget that these are ALLEGED terrorists. Granted, KSM made it very clear that he was proud of what he was able to accomplish. Now, this is the United States of America. Innocent until proven guilty. If we are going to be the shining city on the hill that Ronnie kept talking about, we have to live up to that standard. We don't torture. While these men were captured in the field of battle, in the United States we give them due process. That doesn't mean that we're "concerned more about the legal rights of terrorists than our own citizens"...it means that we have a moral standing in the world that we have to keep. When we lower our moral standard (torture, Gitmo, Iraq War, blind support for Israel), that's when people get pissed and want to do harm to us.
so what makes you so sure of that? and what should we have done when we got attacked Nothing ? what about when Clinton fired missiles into Afghanistan what were your thoughts on that. or better yet Obama is the current president and he's got drones droppin bombs on villages and I haven't heard word out of some of you. your hypocrisy is bull shit
I think you'll find that most of the people on the train that have views which oppose yours on war, torture...O'Reily etc, don't care who the president is (or was), or which party he's from, if he continues the foreign policy they disagree with.
I don't give a rats ass if you or anybody else agrees with me or not. But its funny how you and some others always dodge issues or chang the subject especially when facts are laid out in front of you that expose your hypocrisy and far left ideology .
What kind of culture celebrates death ?And you think we should have empathy for a group of people that were responsible for 911 or are Muslim extremist ? :? IMO that's not a culture that's what's called Ideology or what they call Jihad.
So what’s your plan then, bub? Kill ‘em all?
These people have likely lived with violent death, disease and famine as an everyday occurrence for generations….and I’d bet they’ve all been touched by one of these things personally (read: dead friends and family). There is a good chance that they point the fingers at foreign interests when laying blame for these conditions/occurences (directly or thru support of the corrupt govt/warlords that are in control).
Empathy is not just saying, ”oh, if I saw a dead person, I wouldn’t cheer about it; they’re uncivilized….inhuman even” :roll: It’s not looking at THEIR situation from YOUR point of view…it’s putting yourself in their shoes….which entails a lot more than the soundbytes and Hollywood accounts of the story. You have to consider more than that specific moment in time if you’re going to analyze someone’s behaviour, no? It’s not so black and white…
and yes, I suggest you empathize with every sentient being on the planet; why not?….it’s called UNDERSTANDING….try it sometime.
I was referring to to Alqeda and the Taliban not afghan or Iraqi civilians.. Jesus man :roll: and yeah that is the plan kill all of them cos if you dont their gonna kill our soldiers unless they surrender. were fighting this war to win. Do you honestly think you can reason with Alqeda or the Taliban ? If so you need to give your haed a shake cos it's not going to happen :?
so what makes you so sure of that? and what should we have done when we got attacked Nothing ? what about when Clinton fired missiles into Afghanistan what were your thoughts on that. or better yet Obama is the current president and he's got drones droppin bombs on villages and I haven't heard word out of some of you. your hypocrisy is bull shit
I think you'll find that most of the people on the train that have views which oppose yours on war, torture...O'Reily etc, don't care who the president is (or was), or which party he's from, if he continues the foreign policy they disagree with.
I don't give a rats ass if you or anybody else agrees with me or not. But its funny how you and some others always dodge issues or chang the subject especially when facts are laid out in front of you that expose your hypocrisy and far left ideology .
Sorry man, but you too never respond too well to your hypocrisy and ideology.
Comments
Of course if one of us were caught in the tribal regions of Pakistan or Afghanistan they would line up like the Ewoks did to C3PO, right? Hardly. Somehow I'm guessing we would be headline news on Al-Jazeera with the beginning of the footage showing some guy in a mask with a big knife and the ending of said footage with your head held high in the air. Dumping water on someone or making people form pyramids in their underwear did not cause that to happen.
they're human beings. even if they are hardline militants.
as soon as people stop signing up to kill, for a paycheck or college education or nationalism or haliburton, when that day comes, we could see the first step in ending war.
do you ever question what they do or do you just blindly support them because that's the nationalist thing to do?
You will never see the end of war, face reality.
Carry on...
nothing is perfect. trying to come as close as possible -that's the goal. so maybe war won't end. but we sure as hell can avoid things like the Iraq invasion and the afghanistan invasion and the Panama invasion and the overthrow of the democratically elected regimes in Guatamela or Nicaragua, if we care to try.
most of what they do is good? conventional ideology is on my side in this case, that is absolute bullshit. unless your definition of "good" means "good for US business and hegemony" then i suppose your right. but that means us soldiers are fighting and killing and dying for corporate greed and state power. so in a sense, they are fighting for haliburton and its bottom line, for Washington and its sphere of influence.
the only institution with the authority to end war is the UN, and in order for it implement its policies, the US needs to get in line, to cede a little sovereignty for the common good.,
but nationalism and pride and rednecks get in the way of that goal, so we may have a ways to go yet.
So I guess you don't care how the US is viewed around the world?
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
Do you care what people think of you? If someone talks shit behind your back are you going to cry, run away, confront them, beat them up, or are you going to ignore them because they are too much of a coward to say it to your face?
So you want a World Government? You are so un-anarchist.
Torture will only make it worse, unless genocide is your plan. If we're going to try to do business with people living a life based on centuries of tradition, we won't be able to do it by force.
The Star Wars analogy ( :roll: )....So if we are stupid enough to fly to the opposite side of the world, take a bus to the very edge of civilization in Pakistan, wander into the mountains, stumble across a group of Pashtun tribesmen and oops! get beheaded....that's a reason to invade and torture? Fuck, I hope no tourists ever get offed wandering into the wrong 'hood in LA or NY......Cause by that logic, your military has a lot of work to do in your own slums...
An idiot on air, and I mostly don't agree with him, but I still find him entertaining.. Did anyone catch him on Anthony Bordain?
I think it speaks volumes for the conditions they've lived under their whole lives....
Why would these people be so angry that they'd celebrate the death of a young man they didn't know? Not asking that question is akin to fighting terrorism without looking into it's root causes. You're judging a culture with no empathy and no interest in backstory.
Um excuse me but I could care less about there goddamn culture.. :x What kind of culture celebrates death ?And you think we should have empathy for a group of people that were responsible for 911 or are Muslim extremist ? :? IMO that's not a culture that's what's called Ideology or what they call Jihad.
So what’s your plan then, bub? Kill ‘em all?
These people have likely lived with violent death, disease and famine as an everyday occurrence for generations….and I’d bet they’ve all been touched by one of these things personally (read: dead friends and family). There is a good chance that they point the fingers at foreign interests when laying blame for these conditions/occurences (directly or thru support of the corrupt govt/warlords that are in control).
Empathy is not just saying, ”oh, if I saw a dead person, I wouldn’t cheer about it; they’re uncivilized….inhuman even” :roll: It’s not looking at THEIR situation from YOUR point of view…it’s putting yourself in their shoes….which entails a lot more than the soundbytes and Hollywood accounts of the story. You have to consider more than that specific moment in time if you’re going to analyze someone’s behaviour, no? It’s not so black and white…
and yes, I suggest you empathize with every sentient being on the planet; why not?….it’s called UNDERSTANDING….try it sometime.
So when Bush annoucned the Afganistan invasion you didn't cheer Yeah!! Fuck those Arabs!!! Gimme a break. Thats no different to the sentiment that they are displaying but I know your not going to get it :roll:
My punk ass won't be going anywhere. Kinda like it around here.
so what makes you so sure of that? and what should we have done when we got attacked Nothing ? what about when Clinton fired missiles into Afghanistan what were your thoughts on that. or better yet Obama is the current president and he's got drones droppin bombs on villages and I haven't heard word out of some of you. your hypocrisy is bull shit
Your miising the point. You go on about Afganis or Iraqis celebrating the death of a soldier and call it dispicable and can't understand why, when we as a people do the same when we kill a bunch of their militants.
If you want my point of view on the current situation all you had to do was ask. I'm all for chasing down the Taliban and elimianting them but that didn't happen under Bush. He sent a tolken force to Afganistan and took the rest and invaded Iraq which had no Al-Qaeda or Taliban presence there before the invasion. Now Obama wants to push on in Afganistan and scale down the forces in Iraq. I would prefer he withdrew all forces from a Iraq but at least its a step in right direction. As as far as his plans for Afganistan goes I hope he wins the war there. How he does that I don't know. I'm not privy to all the goings on there and what would be the best strategy. I do know is that in the Australian area of operation the Orgunz province they have seen the violence reduced to its lowest level in many years. Maybe he should take a leaf out their book!
This says it all for me.
I don't give a rats ass if you or anybody else agrees with me or not. But its funny how you and some others always dodge issues or chang the subject especially when facts are laid out in front of you that expose your hypocrisy and far left ideology .
I was referring to to Alqeda and the Taliban not afghan or Iraqi civilians.. Jesus man :roll: and yeah that is the plan kill all of them cos if you dont their gonna kill our soldiers unless they surrender. were fighting this war to win. Do you honestly think you can reason with Alqeda or the Taliban ? If so you need to give your haed a shake cos it's not going to happen :?
Sorry man, but you too never respond too well to your hypocrisy and ideology.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm