You win two SB MVP's, it shouldn't even be a debate...
Exactly
...but the reason there is some debate is that he's been average for most of his career outside of those two runs. His career has long interested me. It's unlike most in NFL history:
As we’ve detailed before, the youngest Manning brother has been a very average quarterback over the course of his NFL career. In fact, according to Pro-Football-Reference.com’s advanced passing index, he is one of the most average QBs ever, checking in with a lifetime adjusted net yards per attempt (ANY/A) index of 101 (where 100 is dead-average for the era). Manning’s durability has managed to keep him in the lineup longer than most other passers — more on that later — but on a rate basis, there hasn’t been much special about Manning’s career passing efficiency numbers.
The way Eli got to average, however, was anything but. Among qualified QBs since the merger, Manning is the only one to grade out as average or better by ANY/A while simultaneously rating below average in completion percentage, yards per attempt and interception percentage. He pulled off that feat by being better than average at throwing for touchdowns — and he’s had plenty of memorable TD strikes over the years — while ranking as one of the best in history at avoiding sacks (something else that shows up in his signature moments). Unlike his brother Peyton, who became an all-time legend by excelling in basically the same categories as other great QBs did, Eli did it his own way, as always.
And then there are the epic highs and ignoble lows of Manning’s tenure in New York. Although his yearly efficiency marks have — somewhat surprisingly — not bounced around too much more than those of his peers, Manning has compounded his regular-season performances with playoff numbers that have been all over the place. When he was leading the Giants to a pair of Super Bowl victories after the 2007 and 2011 seasons, Manning went a perfect (by definition) 8-0 with a passer rating (100.1) nearly 7 points higher than he ever had in any single regular season of his career. In all of his other postseason appearances combined, he went 0-4 with a rating (61.8) about 8 poin
For such an average quarterback, Manning became a much more extreme version of himself in the playoffs — which worked wonders twice and failed badly on four other occasions. Now, you might expect most Super Bowl-winning QBs to have such a split; after all, the team is also much more likely to win when its starting QB plays better. But even relative to other multi-time Super Bowl winners, Manning stands out. None of them were worse by quarterback rating in their non-Super Bowl winning playoff runs, and only Troy Aikman had a bigger split in QB ratings between years when he won the Super Bowl and years when he didn’t.
Eli is not the QB who can thrive with less than 3 seconds after the snap. Especially with the wideouts he's had in his career. A lot of times his goofy ass is already running for his life right after the snap. He's not extremely accurate, he doesn't have a cannon, but let's be real.. You can't give a statue two seconds in the pocket and expect him to be successful either. Also, not being able to keep defenses honest didn't help. Which is also a reflection of the O-line not being able to create holes for a decent running game. Don't even get me started with the linebackers we've had who can't cover their own shadows. I'm not saying Eli is flawless. He's far from that. However, football is the ultimate team sport where shortcomings from different aspects of the game can cause you to be and/or make you look real bad.
I really think the past 3 seasons is what intensified the below average talks the most, but look at the personnel since 2013. I mean seriously, he didn't even have receivers in 2017... With Flowers at his blind side.
You win two SB MVP's, it shouldn't even be a debate...
Exactly
...but the reason there is some debate is that he's been average for most of his career outside of those two runs. His career has long interested me. It's unlike most in NFL history:
As we’ve detailed before, the youngest Manning brother has been a very average quarterback over the course of his NFL career. In fact, according to Pro-Football-Reference.com’s advanced passing index, he is one of the most average QBs ever, checking in with a lifetime adjusted net yards per attempt (ANY/A) index of 101 (where 100 is dead-average for the era). Manning’s durability has managed to keep him in the lineup longer than most other passers — more on that later — but on a rate basis, there hasn’t been much special about Manning’s career passing efficiency numbers.
The way Eli got to average, however, was anything but. Among qualified QBs since the merger, Manning is the only one to grade out as average or better by ANY/A while simultaneously rating below average in completion percentage, yards per attempt and interception percentage. He pulled off that feat by being better than average at throwing for touchdowns — and he’s had plenty of memorable TD strikes over the years — while ranking as one of the best in history at avoiding sacks (something else that shows up in his signature moments). Unlike his brother Peyton, who became an all-time legend by excelling in basically the same categories as other great QBs did, Eli did it his own way, as always.
And then there are the epic highs and ignoble lows of Manning’s tenure in New York. Although his yearly efficiency marks have — somewhat surprisingly — not bounced around too much more than those of his peers, Manning has compounded his regular-season performances with playoff numbers that have been all over the place. When he was leading the Giants to a pair of Super Bowl victories after the 2007 and 2011 seasons, Manning went a perfect (by definition) 8-0 with a passer rating (100.1) nearly 7 points higher than he ever had in any single regular season of his career. In all of his other postseason appearances combined, he went 0-4 with a rating (61.8) about 8 poin
For such an average quarterback, Manning became a much more extreme version of himself in the playoffs — which worked wonders twice and failed badly on four other occasions. Now, you might expect most Super Bowl-winning QBs to have such a split; after all, the team is also much more likely to win when its starting QB plays better. But even relative to other multi-time Super Bowl winners, Manning stands out. None of them were worse by quarterback rating in their non-Super Bowl winning playoff runs, and only Troy Aikman had a bigger split in QB ratings between years when he won the Super Bowl and years when he didn’t.
Eli is not the QB who can thrive with less than 3 seconds after the snap. Especially with the wideouts he's had in his career. A lot of times his goofy ass is already running for his life right after the snap. He's not extremely accurate, he doesn't have a cannon, but let's be real.. You can't give a statue two seconds in the pocket and expect him to be successful either. Also, not being able to keep defenses honest didn't help. Which is also a reflection of the O-line not being able to create holes for a decent running game. Don't even get me started with the linebackers we've had who can't cover their own shadows. I'm not saying Eli is flawless. He's far from that. However, football is the ultimate team sport where shortcomings from different aspects of the game can cause you to be and/or make you look real bad.
I really think the past 3 seasons is what intensified the below average talks the most, but look at the personnel since 2013. I mean seriously, he didn't even have receivers in 2017... With Flowers at his blind side.
If you follow Eli's career it will look just like Jameis Winstons at this point. Big yardage, as many interceptions as TD's. The only thing missing is the rings.
How do you view Winston so far?
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The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,279
You win two SB MVP's, it shouldn't even be a debate...
Exactly
...but the reason there is some debate is that he's been average for most of his career outside of those two runs. His career has long interested me. It's unlike most in NFL history:
As we’ve detailed before, the youngest Manning brother has been a very average quarterback over the course of his NFL career. In fact, according to Pro-Football-Reference.com’s advanced passing index, he is one of the most average QBs ever, checking in with a lifetime adjusted net yards per attempt (ANY/A) index of 101 (where 100 is dead-average for the era). Manning’s durability has managed to keep him in the lineup longer than most other passers — more on that later — but on a rate basis, there hasn’t been much special about Manning’s career passing efficiency numbers.
The way Eli got to average, however, was anything but. Among qualified QBs since the merger, Manning is the only one to grade out as average or better by ANY/A while simultaneously rating below average in completion percentage, yards per attempt and interception percentage. He pulled off that feat by being better than average at throwing for touchdowns — and he’s had plenty of memorable TD strikes over the years — while ranking as one of the best in history at avoiding sacks (something else that shows up in his signature moments). Unlike his brother Peyton, who became an all-time legend by excelling in basically the same categories as other great QBs did, Eli did it his own way, as always.
And then there are the epic highs and ignoble lows of Manning’s tenure in New York. Although his yearly efficiency marks have — somewhat surprisingly — not bounced around too much more than those of his peers, Manning has compounded his regular-season performances with playoff numbers that have been all over the place. When he was leading the Giants to a pair of Super Bowl victories after the 2007 and 2011 seasons, Manning went a perfect (by definition) 8-0 with a passer rating (100.1) nearly 7 points higher than he ever had in any single regular season of his career. In all of his other postseason appearances combined, he went 0-4 with a rating (61.8) about 8 poin
For such an average quarterback, Manning became a much more extreme version of himself in the playoffs — which worked wonders twice and failed badly on four other occasions. Now, you might expect most Super Bowl-winning QBs to have such a split; after all, the team is also much more likely to win when its starting QB plays better. But even relative to other multi-time Super Bowl winners, Manning stands out. None of them were worse by quarterback rating in their non-Super Bowl winning playoff runs, and only Troy Aikman had a bigger split in QB ratings between years when he won the Super Bowl and years when he didn’t.
Eli is not the QB who can thrive with less than 3 seconds after the snap. Especially with the wideouts he's had in his career. A lot of times his goofy ass is already running for his life right after the snap. He's not extremely accurate, he doesn't have a cannon, but let's be real.. You can't give a statue two seconds in the pocket and expect him to be successful either. Also, not being able to keep defenses honest didn't help. Which is also a reflection of the O-line not being able to create holes for a decent running game. Don't even get me started with the linebackers we've had who can't cover their own shadows. I'm not saying Eli is flawless. He's far from that. However, football is the ultimate team sport where shortcomings from different aspects of the game can cause you to be and/or make you look real bad.
I really think the past 3 seasons is what intensified the below average talks the most, but look at the personnel since 2013. I mean seriously, he didn't even have receivers in 2017... With Flowers at his blind side.
If you're saying Eli needs more than 3 seconds to be successful, that really is not helping your argument man....
You win two SB MVP's, it shouldn't even be a debate...
Exactly
...but the reason there is some debate is that he's been average for most of his career outside of those two runs. His career has long interested me. It's unlike most in NFL history:
As we’ve detailed before, the youngest Manning brother has been a very average quarterback over the course of his NFL career. In fact, according to Pro-Football-Reference.com’s advanced passing index, he is one of the most average QBs ever, checking in with a lifetime adjusted net yards per attempt (ANY/A) index of 101 (where 100 is dead-average for the era). Manning’s durability has managed to keep him in the lineup longer than most other passers — more on that later — but on a rate basis, there hasn’t been much special about Manning’s career passing efficiency numbers.
The way Eli got to average, however, was anything but. Among qualified QBs since the merger, Manning is the only one to grade out as average or better by ANY/A while simultaneously rating below average in completion percentage, yards per attempt and interception percentage. He pulled off that feat by being better than average at throwing for touchdowns — and he’s had plenty of memorable TD strikes over the years — while ranking as one of the best in history at avoiding sacks (something else that shows up in his signature moments). Unlike his brother Peyton, who became an all-time legend by excelling in basically the same categories as other great QBs did, Eli did it his own way, as always.
And then there are the epic highs and ignoble lows of Manning’s tenure in New York. Although his yearly efficiency marks have — somewhat surprisingly — not bounced around too much more than those of his peers, Manning has compounded his regular-season performances with playoff numbers that have been all over the place. When he was leading the Giants to a pair of Super Bowl victories after the 2007 and 2011 seasons, Manning went a perfect (by definition) 8-0 with a passer rating (100.1) nearly 7 points higher than he ever had in any single regular season of his career. In all of his other postseason appearances combined, he went 0-4 with a rating (61.8) about 8 poin
For such an average quarterback, Manning became a much more extreme version of himself in the playoffs — which worked wonders twice and failed badly on four other occasions. Now, you might expect most Super Bowl-winning QBs to have such a split; after all, the team is also much more likely to win when its starting QB plays better. But even relative to other multi-time Super Bowl winners, Manning stands out. None of them were worse by quarterback rating in their non-Super Bowl winning playoff runs, and only Troy Aikman had a bigger split in QB ratings between years when he won the Super Bowl and years when he didn’t.
Eli is not the QB who can thrive with less than 3 seconds after the snap. Especially with the wideouts he's had in his career. A lot of times his goofy ass is already running for his life right after the snap. He's not extremely accurate, he doesn't have a cannon, but let's be real.. You can't give a statue two seconds in the pocket and expect him to be successful either. Also, not being able to keep defenses honest didn't help. Which is also a reflection of the O-line not being able to create holes for a decent running game. Don't even get me started with the linebackers we've had who can't cover their own shadows. I'm not saying Eli is flawless. He's far from that. However, football is the ultimate team sport where shortcomings from different aspects of the game can cause you to be and/or make you look real bad.
I really think the past 3 seasons is what intensified the below average talks the most, but look at the personnel since 2013. I mean seriously, he didn't even have receivers in 2017... With Flowers at his blind side.
If you're saying Eli needs more than 3 seconds to be successful, that really is not helping your argument man....
It's certainly what Mrs. manning has been saying for years.
This weekend we rock Portland
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The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,279
You win two SB MVP's, it shouldn't even be a debate...
Exactly
...but the reason there is some debate is that he's been average for most of his career outside of those two runs. His career has long interested me. It's unlike most in NFL history:
Eli is not the QB who can thrive with less than 3 seconds after the snap. Especially with the wideouts he's had in his career. A lot of times his goofy ass is already running for his life right after the snap. He's not extremely accurate, he doesn't have a cannon, but let's be real.. You can't give a statue two seconds in the pocket and expect him to be successful either. Also, not being able to keep defenses honest didn't help. Which is also a reflection of the O-line not being able to create holes for a decent running game. Don't even get me started with the linebackers we've had who can't cover their own shadows. I'm not saying Eli is flawless. He's far from that. However, football is the ultimate team sport where shortcomings from different aspects of the game can cause you to be and/or make you look real bad.
I really think the past 3 seasons is what intensified the below average talks the most, but look at the personnel since 2013. I mean seriously, he didn't even have receivers in 2017... With Flowers at his blind side.
If you're saying Eli needs more than 3 seconds to be successful, that really is not helping your argument man....
It's certainly what Mrs. manning has been saying for years.
Poncier...from way downtown....BANG!
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crookedcross
Right Near Da Beach, Boiii Posts: 1,418
You win two SB MVP's, it shouldn't even be a debate...
Exactly
...but the reason there is some debate is that he's been average for most of his career outside of those two runs. His career has long interested me. It's unlike most in NFL history:
Eli is not the QB who can thrive with less than 3 seconds after the snap. Especially with the wideouts he's had in his career. A lot of times his goofy ass is already running for his life right after the snap. He's not extremely accurate, he doesn't have a cannon, but let's be real.. You can't give a statue two seconds in the pocket and expect him to be successful either. Also, not being able to keep defenses honest didn't help. Which is also a reflection of the O-line not being able to create holes for a decent running game. Don't even get me started with the linebackers we've had who can't cover their own shadows. I'm not saying Eli is flawless. He's far from that. However, football is the ultimate team sport where shortcomings from different aspects of the game can cause you to be and/or make you look real bad.
I really think the past 3 seasons is what intensified the below average talks the most, but look at the personnel since 2013. I mean seriously, he didn't even have receivers in 2017... With Flowers at his blind side.
If you're saying Eli needs more than 3 seconds to be successful, that really is not helping your argument man....
What do you mean? All statues need at least 2.5 to 3 seconds to be successful. Especially someone who's in a team without a semi-intimidating run game.. and I'm not talking about average TT, that stat is kind of meaningless. I'm talking about opportunities, like the number of times they have time in the pocket. Eli never had the luxury of consistently having time in the pocket. There's maybe 1 or 2 games a season when his line would give him good quality protection all game.
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crookedcross
Right Near Da Beach, Boiii Posts: 1,418
You win two SB MVP's, it shouldn't even be a debate...
Exactly
...but the reason there is some debate is that he's been average for most of his career outside of those two runs. His career has long interested me. It's unlike most in NFL history:
As we’ve detailed before, the youngest Manning brother has been a very average quarterback over the course of his NFL career. In fact, according to Pro-Football-Reference.com’s advanced passing index, he is one of the most average QBs ever, checking in with a lifetime adjusted net yards per attempt (ANY/A) index of 101 (where 100 is dead-average for the era). Manning’s durability has managed to keep him in the lineup longer than most other passers — more on that later — but on a rate basis, there hasn’t been much special about Manning’s career passing efficiency numbers.
The way Eli got to average, however, was anything but. Among qualified QBs since the merger, Manning is the only one to grade out as average or better by ANY/A while simultaneously rating below average in completion percentage, yards per attempt and interception percentage. He pulled off that feat by being better than average at throwing for touchdowns — and he’s had plenty of memorable TD strikes over the years — while ranking as one of the best in history at avoiding sacks (something else that shows up in his signature moments). Unlike his brother Peyton, who became an all-time legend by excelling in basically the same categories as other great QBs did, Eli did it his own way, as always.
And then there are the epic highs and ignoble lows of Manning’s tenure in New York. Although his yearly efficiency marks have — somewhat surprisingly — not bounced around too much more than those of his peers, Manning has compounded his regular-season performances with playoff numbers that have been all over the place. When he was leading the Giants to a pair of Super Bowl victories after the 2007 and 2011 seasons, Manning went a perfect (by definition) 8-0 with a passer rating (100.1) nearly 7 points higher than he ever had in any single regular season of his career. In all of his other postseason appearances combined, he went 0-4 with a rating (61.8) about 8 poin
For such an average quarterback, Manning became a much more extreme version of himself in the playoffs — which worked wonders twice and failed badly on four other occasions. Now, you might expect most Super Bowl-winning QBs to have such a split; after all, the team is also much more likely to win when its starting QB plays better. But even relative to other multi-time Super Bowl winners, Manning stands out. None of them were worse by quarterback rating in their non-Super Bowl winning playoff runs, and only Troy Aikman had a bigger split in QB ratings between years when he won the Super Bowl and years when he didn’t.
Eli is not the QB who can thrive with less than 3 seconds after the snap. Especially with the wideouts he's had in his career. A lot of times his goofy ass is already running for his life right after the snap. He's not extremely accurate, he doesn't have a cannon, but let's be real.. You can't give a statue two seconds in the pocket and expect him to be successful either. Also, not being able to keep defenses honest didn't help. Which is also a reflection of the O-line not being able to create holes for a decent running game. Don't even get me started with the linebackers we've had who can't cover their own shadows. I'm not saying Eli is flawless. He's far from that. However, football is the ultimate team sport where shortcomings from different aspects of the game can cause you to be and/or make you look real bad.
I really think the past 3 seasons is what intensified the below average talks the most, but look at the personnel since 2013. I mean seriously, he didn't even have receivers in 2017... With Flowers at his blind side.
If you follow Eli's career it will look just like Jameis Winstons at this point. Big yardage, as many interceptions as TD's. The only thing missing is the rings.
How do you view Winston so far?
One without rings, or clutch moments in meaningful games
You win two SB MVP's, it shouldn't even be a debate...
Exactly
...but the reason there is some debate is that he's been average for most of his career outside of those two runs. His career has long interested me. It's unlike most in NFL history:
Eli is not the QB who can thrive with less than 3 seconds after the snap. Especially with the wideouts he's had in his career. A lot of times his goofy ass is already running for his life right after the snap. He's not extremely accurate, he doesn't have a cannon, but let's be real.. You can't give a statue two seconds in the pocket and expect him to be successful either. Also, not being able to keep defenses honest didn't help. Which is also a reflection of the O-line not being able to create holes for a decent running game. Don't even get me started with the linebackers we've had who can't cover their own shadows. I'm not saying Eli is flawless. He's far from that. However, football is the ultimate team sport where shortcomings from different aspects of the game can cause you to be and/or make you look real bad.
I really think the past 3 seasons is what intensified the below average talks the most, but look at the personnel since 2013. I mean seriously, he didn't even have receivers in 2017... With Flowers at his blind side.
If you're saying Eli needs more than 3 seconds to be successful, that really is not helping your argument man....
What do you mean? All statues need at least 2.5 to 3 seconds to be successful. Especially someone who's in a team without a semi-intimidating run game.. and I'm not talking about average TT, that stat is kind of meaningless. I'm talking about opportunities, like the number of times they have time in the pocket. Eli never had the luxury of consistently having time in the pocket. There's maybe 1 or 2 games a season when his line would give him good quality protection all game.
Every time I see Brees play. He's basically on an island with the amount of time he has sometimes.
I miss igotid88
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The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,279
You win two SB MVP's, it shouldn't even be a debate...
Exactly
...but the reason there is some debate is that he's been average for most of his career outside of those two runs. His career has long interested me. It's unlike most in NFL history:
Eli is not the QB who can thrive with less than 3 seconds after the snap. Especially with the wideouts he's had in his career. A lot of times his goofy ass is already running for his life right after the snap. He's not extremely accurate, he doesn't have a cannon, but let's be real.. You can't give a statue two seconds in the pocket and expect him to be successful either. Also, not being able to keep defenses honest didn't help. Which is also a reflection of the O-line not being able to create holes for a decent running game. Don't even get me started with the linebackers we've had who can't cover their own shadows. I'm not saying Eli is flawless. He's far from that. However, football is the ultimate team sport where shortcomings from different aspects of the game can cause you to be and/or make you look real bad.
I really think the past 3 seasons is what intensified the below average talks the most, but look at the personnel since 2013. I mean seriously, he didn't even have receivers in 2017... With Flowers at his blind side.
If you're saying Eli needs more than 3 seconds to be successful, that really is not helping your argument man....
What do you mean? All statues need at least 2.5 to 3 seconds to be successful. Especially someone who's in a team without a semi-intimidating run game.. and I'm not talking about average TT, that stat is kind of meaningless. I'm talking about opportunities, like the number of times they have time in the pocket. Eli never had the luxury of consistently having time in the pocket. There's maybe 1 or 2 games a season when his line would give him good quality protection all game.
Every time I see Brees play. He's basically on an island with the amount of time he has sometimes.
I don't see how average TT is meaningless when it takes into account the plays you're talking about when the qb doesn't have time but also the plays they do. It's an average! Eli, it seems, has always been good at getting the ball out of his hands better than most.
Drew Brees gets the ball out in 2.55 seconds. Only one other qb gets the ball out of his hands faster. Eli, actually is actually 8th at 2.66 seconds. Every quarterback in the league is below 3 seconds, statues or not.
Also, not for nothing, but Dan Marino (the most statuesque of all statues) laughs at all your guys' Eli excuses. He had it much worse than Eli had with poorer defenses, poorer running games, and so-so offensive lines at best. Despite all that, his numbers are obviously unreal. That's a sure fire hall of famer. Nobody doubted that.
You win two SB MVP's, it shouldn't even be a debate...
Exactly
...but the reason there is some debate is that he's been average for most of his career outside of those two runs. His career has long interested me. It's unlike most in NFL history:
Eli is not the QB who can thrive with less than 3 seconds after the snap. Especially with the wideouts he's had in his career. A lot of times his goofy ass is already running for his life right after the snap. He's not extremely accurate, he doesn't have a cannon, but let's be real.. You can't give a statue two seconds in the pocket and expect him to be successful either. Also, not being able to keep defenses honest didn't help. Which is also a reflection of the O-line not being able to create holes for a decent running game. Don't even get me started with the linebackers we've had who can't cover their own shadows. I'm not saying Eli is flawless. He's far from that. However, football is the ultimate team sport where shortcomings from different aspects of the game can cause you to be and/or make you look real bad.
I really think the past 3 seasons is what intensified the below average talks the most, but look at the personnel since 2013. I mean seriously, he didn't even have receivers in 2017... With Flowers at his blind side.
If you're saying Eli needs more than 3 seconds to be successful, that really is not helping your argument man....
What do you mean? All statues need at least 2.5 to 3 seconds to be successful. Especially someone who's in a team without a semi-intimidating run game.. and I'm not talking about average TT, that stat is kind of meaningless. I'm talking about opportunities, like the number of times they have time in the pocket. Eli never had the luxury of consistently having time in the pocket. There's maybe 1 or 2 games a season when his line would give him good quality protection all game.
Every time I see Brees play. He's basically on an island with the amount of time he has sometimes.
I don't see how average TT is meaningless when it takes into account the plays you're talking about when the qb doesn't have time but also the plays they do. It's an average! Eli, it seems, has always been good at getting the ball out of his hands better than most.
Drew Brees gets the ball out in 2.55 seconds. Only one other qb gets the ball out of his hands faster. Eli, actually is actually 8th at 2.66 seconds. Every quarterback in the league is below 3 seconds, statues or not.
Also, not for nothing, but Dan Marino (the most statuesque of all statues) laughs at all your guys' Eli excuses. He had it much worse than Eli had with poorer defenses, poorer running games, and so-so offensive lines at best. Despite all that, his numbers are obviously unreal. That's a sure fire hall of famer. Nobody doubted that.
That's because he has no choice. And he gets criticised for it. Throwing checkdowns or slants. People saying he can't throw over 30 yards.
I miss igotid88
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The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,279
You win two SB MVP's, it shouldn't even be a debate...
Exactly
...but the reason there is some debate is that he's been average for most of his career outside of those two runs. His career has long interested me. It's unlike most in NFL history:
Eli is not the QB who can thrive with less than 3 seconds after the snap. Especially with the wideouts he's had in his career. A lot of times his goofy ass is already running for his life right after the snap. He's not extremely accurate, he doesn't have a cannon, but let's be real.. You can't give a statue two seconds in the pocket and expect him to be successful either. Also, not being able to keep defenses honest didn't help. Which is also a reflection of the O-line not being able to create holes for a decent running game. Don't even get me started with the linebackers we've had who can't cover their own shadows. I'm not saying Eli is flawless. He's far from that. However, football is the ultimate team sport where shortcomings from different aspects of the game can cause you to be and/or make you look real bad.
I really think the past 3 seasons is what intensified the below average talks the most, but look at the personnel since 2013. I mean seriously, he didn't even have receivers in 2017... With Flowers at his blind side.
If you're saying Eli needs more than 3 seconds to be successful, that really is not helping your argument man....
What do you mean? All statues need at least 2.5 to 3 seconds to be successful. Especially someone who's in a team without a semi-intimidating run game.. and I'm not talking about average TT, that stat is kind of meaningless. I'm talking about opportunities, like the number of times they have time in the pocket. Eli never had the luxury of consistently having time in the pocket. There's maybe 1 or 2 games a season when his line would give him good quality protection all game.
Every time I see Brees play. He's basically on an island with the amount of time he has sometimes.
I don't see how average TT is meaningless when it takes into account the plays you're talking about when the qb doesn't have time but also the plays they do. It's an average! Eli, it seems, has always been good at getting the ball out of his hands better than most.
Drew Brees gets the ball out in 2.55 seconds. Only one other qb gets the ball out of his hands faster. Eli, actually is actually 8th at 2.66 seconds. Every quarterback in the league is below 3 seconds, statues or not.
Also, not for nothing, but Dan Marino (the most statuesque of all statues) laughs at all your guys' Eli excuses. He had it much worse than Eli had with poorer defenses, poorer running games, and so-so offensive lines at best. Despite all that, his numbers are obviously unreal. That's a sure fire hall of famer. Nobody doubted that.
That's because he has no choice. And he gets criticised for it. Throwing checkdowns or slants. People saying he can't throw over 30 yards.
Dan Marino laughs at this excuse as well.
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crookedcross
Right Near Da Beach, Boiii Posts: 1,418
You win two SB MVP's, it shouldn't even be a debate...
Exactly
...but the reason there is some debate is that he's been average for most of his career outside of those two runs. His career has long interested me. It's unlike most in NFL history:
Eli is not the QB who can thrive with less than 3 seconds after the snap. Especially with the wideouts he's had in his career. A lot of times his goofy ass is already running for his life right after the snap. He's not extremely accurate, he doesn't have a cannon, but let's be real.. You can't give a statue two seconds in the pocket and expect him to be successful either. Also, not being able to keep defenses honest didn't help. Which is also a reflection of the O-line not being able to create holes for a decent running game. Don't even get me started with the linebackers we've had who can't cover their own shadows. I'm not saying Eli is flawless. He's far from that. However, football is the ultimate team sport where shortcomings from different aspects of the game can cause you to be and/or make you look real bad.
I really think the past 3 seasons is what intensified the below average talks the most, but look at the personnel since 2013. I mean seriously, he didn't even have receivers in 2017... With Flowers at his blind side.
If you're saying Eli needs more than 3 seconds to be successful, that really is not helping your argument man....
What do you mean? All statues need at least 2.5 to 3 seconds to be successful. Especially someone who's in a team without a semi-intimidating run game.. and I'm not talking about average TT, that stat is kind of meaningless. I'm talking about opportunities, like the number of times they have time in the pocket. Eli never had the luxury of consistently having time in the pocket. There's maybe 1 or 2 games a season when his line would give him good quality protection all game.
Every time I see Brees play. He's basically on an island with the amount of time he has sometimes.
I don't see how average TT is meaningless when it takes into account the plays you're talking about when the qb doesn't have time but also the plays they do. It's an average! Eli, it seems, has always been good at getting the ball out of his hands better than most.
Drew Brees gets the ball out in 2.55 seconds. Only one other qb gets the ball out of his hands faster. Eli, actually is actually 8th at 2.66 seconds. Every quarterback in the league is below 3 seconds, statues or not.
Also, not for nothing, but Dan Marino (the most statuesque of all statues) laughs at all your guys' Eli excuses. He had it much worse than Eli had with poorer defenses, poorer running games, and so-so offensive lines at best. Despite all that, his numbers are obviously unreal. That's a sure fire hall of famer. Nobody doubted that.
Average TT doesn't take into account what type of plays you run the most, what system, in or out of the pocket, how fast plays develop, routes, etc. Cool stat for people to look at though. Maybe this will make it easier... Eli needs the pocket, and he is so-so with play action. No question. He's not the guy who would squeeze out of a collapsing pocket and create plays. We all know that. Now, compared to other QBs, when in the pocket, they have 3 seconds or more. Regularly. Not Eli.
Not sure why you think I'm making excuses. He's gonna make the HoF. Why do I need to make excuses? Just saying that Eli gets all the hate with what's going on with the Giants. When there are legit, so many other things wrong with that team for almost a decade now. Also, Dan Marino... What?? I wouldn't call his numbers unreal. They are good, but not unreal. Poorer defenses? Eli won Superbowls with his defenses ranked 17th and 25th. Dan Marino had a top 10 defense five times in his career and couldn't close.
Post edited by crookedcross on
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The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,279
You win two SB MVP's, it shouldn't even be a debate...
Exactly
...but the reason there is some debate is that he's been average for most of his career outside of those two runs. His career has long interested me. It's unlike most in NFL history:
Eli is not the QB who can thrive with less than 3 seconds after the snap. Especially with the wideouts he's had in his career. A lot of times his goofy ass is already running for his life right after the snap. He's not extremely accurate, he doesn't have a cannon, but let's be real.. You can't give a statue two seconds in the pocket and expect him to be successful either. Also, not being able to keep defenses honest didn't help. Which is also a reflection of the O-line not being able to create holes for a decent running game. Don't even get me started with the linebackers we've had who can't cover their own shadows. I'm not saying Eli is flawless. He's far from that. However, football is the ultimate team sport where shortcomings from different aspects of the game can cause you to be and/or make you look real bad.
I really think the past 3 seasons is what intensified the below average talks the most, but look at the personnel since 2013. I mean seriously, he didn't even have receivers in 2017... With Flowers at his blind side.
If you're saying Eli needs more than 3 seconds to be successful, that really is not helping your argument man....
What do you mean? All statues need at least 2.5 to 3 seconds to be successful. Especially someone who's in a team without a semi-intimidating run game.. and I'm not talking about average TT, that stat is kind of meaningless. I'm talking about opportunities, like the number of times they have time in the pocket. Eli never had the luxury of consistently having time in the pocket. There's maybe 1 or 2 games a season when his line would give him good quality protection all game.
Every time I see Brees play. He's basically on an island with the amount of time he has sometimes.
I don't see how average TT is meaningless when it takes into account the plays you're talking about when the qb doesn't have time but also the plays they do. It's an average! Eli, it seems, has always been good at getting the ball out of his hands better than most.
Drew Brees gets the ball out in 2.55 seconds. Only one other qb gets the ball out of his hands faster. Eli, actually is actually 8th at 2.66 seconds. Every quarterback in the league is below 3 seconds, statues or not.
Also, not for nothing, but Dan Marino (the most statuesque of all statues) laughs at all your guys' Eli excuses. He had it much worse than Eli had with poorer defenses, poorer running games, and so-so offensive lines at best. Despite all that, his numbers are obviously unreal. That's a sure fire hall of famer. Nobody doubted that.
Average TT doesn't take into account what type of plays you run the most, what system, in or out of the pocket, how fast plays develop, routes, etc. Cool stat for people to look at though. Maybe this will make it easier... Eli needs the pocket, and he is so-so with play action. No question. He's not the guy who would squeeze out of a collapsing pocket and create plays. We all know that. Now, compared to other QBs, when in the pocket, they have 3 seconds or more. Regularly. Not Eli.
Not sure why you think I'm making excuses. He's gonna make the HoF. Why do I need to make excuses? Just saying that Eli gets all the hate with what's going on with the Giants. When there are legit, so many other things wrong with that team for almost a decade now. Also, Dan Marino... What?? I wouldn't call his numbers unreal. They are good, but not unreal. Poorer defenses? Eli won Superbowls with his defenses ranked 17th and 25th. Dan Marino had a top 10 defense five times in his career and couldn't close.
Until you can come up with some magical stat that agrees with your opinion here, TT it is. Sorry man. Every qb has issues with protection at times throughout his career, that’s why an average of such is used.
Marino had 4 top 10 defenses including his final year when he was a shell of his former self, Eli had two. So I guess the defenses were roughly similar then.
And if you don’t think Marino’s numbers are unreal, I don’t know what to tell you. He ended his career as the all time leader in yards and touchdowns BEFORE the NFL made things much easier on its quarterbacks.
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crookedcross
Right Near Da Beach, Boiii Posts: 1,418
You win two SB MVP's, it shouldn't even be a debate...
Exactly
...but the reason there is some debate is that he's been average for most of his career outside of those two runs. His career has long interested me. It's unlike most in NFL history:
Eli is not the QB who can thrive with less than 3 seconds after the snap. Especially with the wideouts he's had in his career. A lot of times his goofy ass is already running for his life right after the snap. He's not extremely accurate, he doesn't have a cannon, but let's be real.. You can't give a statue two seconds in the pocket and expect him to be successful either. Also, not being able to keep defenses honest didn't help. Which is also a reflection of the O-line not being able to create holes for a decent running game. Don't even get me started with the linebackers we've had who can't cover their own shadows. I'm not saying Eli is flawless. He's far from that. However, football is the ultimate team sport where shortcomings from different aspects of the game can cause you to be and/or make you look real bad.
I really think the past 3 seasons is what intensified the below average talks the most, but look at the personnel since 2013. I mean seriously, he didn't even have receivers in 2017... With Flowers at his blind side.
If you're saying Eli needs more than 3 seconds to be successful, that really is not helping your argument man....
What do you mean? All statues need at least 2.5 to 3 seconds to be successful. Especially someone who's in a team without a semi-intimidating run game.. and I'm not talking about average TT, that stat is kind of meaningless. I'm talking about opportunities, like the number of times they have time in the pocket. Eli never had the luxury of consistently having time in the pocket. There's maybe 1 or 2 games a season when his line would give him good quality protection all game.
Every time I see Brees play. He's basically on an island with the amount of time he has sometimes.
I don't see how average TT is meaningless when it takes into account the plays you're talking about when the qb doesn't have time but also the plays they do. It's an average! Eli, it seems, has always been good at getting the ball out of his hands better than most.
Drew Brees gets the ball out in 2.55 seconds. Only one other qb gets the ball out of his hands faster. Eli, actually is actually 8th at 2.66 seconds. Every quarterback in the league is below 3 seconds, statues or not.
Also, not for nothing, but Dan Marino (the most statuesque of all statues) laughs at all your guys' Eli excuses. He had it much worse than Eli had with poorer defenses, poorer running games, and so-so offensive lines at best. Despite all that, his numbers are obviously unreal. That's a sure fire hall of famer. Nobody doubted that.
Average TT doesn't take into account what type of plays you run the most, what system, in or out of the pocket, how fast plays develop, routes, etc. Cool stat for people to look at though. Maybe this will make it easier... Eli needs the pocket, and he is so-so with play action. No question. He's not the guy who would squeeze out of a collapsing pocket and create plays. We all know that. Now, compared to other QBs, when in the pocket, they have 3 seconds or more. Regularly. Not Eli.
Not sure why you think I'm making excuses. He's gonna make the HoF. Why do I need to make excuses? Just saying that Eli gets all the hate with what's going on with the Giants. When there are legit, so many other things wrong with that team for almost a decade now. Also, Dan Marino... What?? I wouldn't call his numbers unreal. They are good, but not unreal. Poorer defenses? Eli won Superbowls with his defenses ranked 17th and 25th. Dan Marino had a top 10 defense five times in his career and couldn't close.
Until you can come up with some magical stat that agrees with your opinion here, TT it is. Sorry man. Every qb has issues with protection at times throughout his career, that’s why an average of such is used.
Marino had 4 top 10 defenses including his final year when he was a shell of his former self, Eli had two. So I guess the defenses were roughly similar then.
And if you don’t think Marino’s numbers are unreal, I don’t know what to tell you. He ended his career as the all time leader in yards and touchdowns BEFORE the NFL made things much easier on its quarterbacks.
Haha there is no stat that accurately reflect how shitty your line is. TT doesn't take into consideration a lot of things. QBs with good lines can have low TT because they play in a system where plays develop quickly. You can have an amazing line but can get the ball out in two seconds seconds flat, not because of pressure, but because the QB doesn't need to go through his progressions, your TT would still be 2 seconds. Apparently your line still sucks according to TT right? It's all about a line holding up when pocket protection is needed, and Eli needs it all the time and never really got a top-notch line ever. Especially 2012 and on. Theres no stat for that. You have to watch games. Eli has been sacked more than 400 times. Would much rather take that stat as a reflection of a shit line over TT.
Dan Marino played for 17 years and rarely got hurt. Of course he will have high numbers. Since you're a stat guy, DM's personal career numbers and averages are barely above Eli's at 15 years, who we call mediocre with two rings. DM just did it in a much more consistent manner than Eli's roller coaster. Not arguing his HoF status or arguing who is better, or mean to compare the two, but I guess great and unreal are just two different things to me. Since you brought him up laughing at our "excuses" for Eli. I will however, call DM great, and a pioneer.
You win two SB MVP's, it shouldn't even be a debate...
Exactly
...but the reason there is some debate is that he's been average for most of his career outside of those two runs. His career has long interested me. It's unlike most in NFL history:
Eli is not the QB who can thrive with less than 3 seconds after the snap. Especially with the wideouts he's had in his career. A lot of times his goofy ass is already running for his life right after the snap. He's not extremely accurate, he doesn't have a cannon, but let's be real.. You can't give a statue two seconds in the pocket and expect him to be successful either. Also, not being able to keep defenses honest didn't help. Which is also a reflection of the O-line not being able to create holes for a decent running game. Don't even get me started with the linebackers we've had who can't cover their own shadows. I'm not saying Eli is flawless. He's far from that. However, football is the ultimate team sport where shortcomings from different aspects of the game can cause you to be and/or make you look real bad.
I really think the past 3 seasons is what intensified the below average talks the most, but look at the personnel since 2013. I mean seriously, he didn't even have receivers in 2017... With Flowers at his blind side.
If you're saying Eli needs more than 3 seconds to be successful, that really is not helping your argument man....
What do you mean? All statues need at least 2.5 to 3 seconds to be successful. Especially someone who's in a team without a semi-intimidating run game.. and I'm not talking about average TT, that stat is kind of meaningless. I'm talking about opportunities, like the number of times they have time in the pocket. Eli never had the luxury of consistently having time in the pocket. There's maybe 1 or 2 games a season when his line would give him good quality protection all game.
Every time I see Brees play. He's basically on an island with the amount of time he has sometimes.
I don't see how average TT is meaningless when it takes into account the plays you're talking about when the qb doesn't have time but also the plays they do. It's an average! Eli, it seems, has always been good at getting the ball out of his hands better than most.
Drew Brees gets the ball out in 2.55 seconds. Only one other qb gets the ball out of his hands faster. Eli, actually is actually 8th at 2.66 seconds. Every quarterback in the league is below 3 seconds, statues or not.
Also, not for nothing, but Dan Marino (the most statuesque of all statues) laughs at all your guys' Eli excuses. He had it much worse than Eli had with poorer defenses, poorer running games, and so-so offensive lines at best. Despite all that, his numbers are obviously unreal. That's a sure fire hall of famer. Nobody doubted that.
Average TT doesn't take into account what type of plays you run the most, what system, in or out of the pocket, how fast plays develop, routes, etc. Cool stat for people to look at though. Maybe this will make it easier... Eli needs the pocket, and he is so-so with play action. No question. He's not the guy who would squeeze out of a collapsing pocket and create plays. We all know that. Now, compared to other QBs, when in the pocket, they have 3 seconds or more. Regularly. Not Eli.
Not sure why you think I'm making excuses. He's gonna make the HoF. Why do I need to make excuses? Just saying that Eli gets all the hate with what's going on with the Giants. When there are legit, so many other things wrong with that team for almost a decade now. Also, Dan Marino... What?? I wouldn't call his numbers unreal. They are good, but not unreal. Poorer defenses? Eli won Superbowls with his defenses ranked 17th and 25th. Dan Marino had a top 10 defense five times in his career and couldn't close.
Until you can come up with some magical stat that agrees with your opinion here, TT it is. Sorry man. Every qb has issues with protection at times throughout his career, that’s why an average of such is used.
Marino had 4 top 10 defenses including his final year when he was a shell of his former self, Eli had two. So I guess the defenses were roughly similar then.
And if you don’t think Marino’s numbers are unreal, I don’t know what to tell you. He ended his career as the all time leader in yards and touchdowns BEFORE the NFL made things much easier on its quarterbacks.
Haha there is no stat that accurately reflect how shitty your line is. TT doesn't take into consideration a lot of things. QBs with good lines can have low TT because they play in a system where plays develop quickly. You can have an amazing line but can get the ball out in two seconds seconds flat, not because of pressure, but because the QB doesn't need to go through his progressions, your TT would still be 2 seconds. Apparently your line still sucks according to TT right? It's all about a line holding up when pocket protection is needed, and Eli needs it all the time and never really got a top-notch line ever. Especially 2012 and on. Theres no stat for that. You have to watch games. Eli has been sacked more than 400 times. Would much rather take that stat as a reflection of a shit line over TT.
Dan Marino played for 17 years and rarely got hurt. Of course he will have high numbers. Since you're a stat guy, DM's personal career numbers and averages are barely above Eli's at 15 years, who we call mediocre with two rings. DM just did it in a much more consistent manner than Eli's roller coaster. Not arguing his HoF status or arguing who is better, or mean to compare the two, but I guess great and unreal are just two different things to me. Since you brought him up laughing at our "excuses" for Eli. I will however, call DM great, and a pioneer.
Part of the reason Eli was sacked so much more than Marino despite both not having the best offensive lines was that Marino, most agree, had the quickest release in NFL history and he was also one of the best ever at moving in the pocket despite being a statue.
Marino played at a time when it was way more difficult on quarterbacks compared to Eli’s era so it’s tough to compare stats. Despite this-you’re right that things like completion percent and rating are about the same. Difference is in the 80’s 60% completion and 85% rating were among the league leaders whereas today they’re....just about average. Then of course we know of the yards and td’s where Marino held the records when he retired despite playing in an era dominated by defense.
Comparing Eli to Marino isn’t fair to Eli. Marino was one of the all time greats. Eli was arguably one of the ten best of his era (largely because of the super bows)...just so happens that his era was one in which the NFL made it incredibly easy for quarterbacks to put up astronomical numbers. Marino would average over 5,000 yards and over 40 tds a year in today’s game.
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The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,279
Forgot to add that I was actually surprised how low Eli’s rankings were on a yearly basis for completion percent and rating. I think I saw him break into the top ten three times? Often times he was in the bottom ten whereas Marino stayed in the top ten for most of his career, including many top 5’s during his prime (no such top fives for Eli). And again, Marino did this when things were more difficult and he also was usually top three in attempts because he never had much of a running game.
That’s the point. One is a sure fire hall of famer despite not winning a super bowl. The other is probably a hall of famer who has two super bowl mvp’s. I’ll say it again—Eli’s career has always intrigued the hell out of me. This little exercise just reinforced that.
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crookedcross
Right Near Da Beach, Boiii Posts: 1,418
Forgot to add that I was actually surprised how low Eli’s rankings were on a yearly basis for completion percent and rating. I think I saw him break into the top ten three times? Often times he was in the bottom ten whereas Marino stayed in the top ten for most of his career, including many top 5’s during his prime (no such top fives for Eli). And again, Marino did this when things were more difficult and he also was usually top three in attempts because he never had much of a running game.
That’s the point. One is a sure fire hall of famer despite not winning a super bowl. The other is probably a hall of famer who has two super bowl mvp’s. I’ll say it again—Eli’s career has always intrigued the hell out of me. This little exercise just reinforced that.
Good discussion. So... is this the point when I say your line to end it?
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The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,279
Forgot to add that I was actually surprised how low Eli’s rankings were on a yearly basis for completion percent and rating. I think I saw him break into the top ten three times? Often times he was in the bottom ten whereas Marino stayed in the top ten for most of his career, including many top 5’s during his prime (no such top fives for Eli). And again, Marino did this when things were more difficult and he also was usually top three in attempts because he never had much of a running game.
That’s the point. One is a sure fire hall of famer despite not winning a super bowl. The other is probably a hall of famer who has two super bowl mvp’s. I’ll say it again—Eli’s career has always intrigued the hell out of me. This little exercise just reinforced that.
Good discussion. So... is this the point when I say your line to end it?
Listen, Boomer, I think this has been a good discussion as well. You definitely made good points.
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crookedcross
Right Near Da Beach, Boiii Posts: 1,418
Forgot to add that I was actually surprised how low Eli’s rankings were on a yearly basis for completion percent and rating. I think I saw him break into the top ten three times? Often times he was in the bottom ten whereas Marino stayed in the top ten for most of his career, including many top 5’s during his prime (no such top fives for Eli). And again, Marino did this when things were more difficult and he also was usually top three in attempts because he never had much of a running game.
That’s the point. One is a sure fire hall of famer despite not winning a super bowl. The other is probably a hall of famer who has two super bowl mvp’s. I’ll say it again—Eli’s career has always intrigued the hell out of me. This little exercise just reinforced that.
Good discussion. So... is this the point when I say your line to end it?
Listen, Boomer, I think this has been a good discussion as well. You definitely made good points.
Comments
Until you mentioned him I completely forgot that he even played, lol!
I really think the past 3 seasons is what intensified the below average talks the most, but look at the personnel since 2013. I mean seriously, he didn't even have receivers in 2017... With Flowers at his blind side.
How do you view Winston so far?
Drew Brees gets the ball out in 2.55 seconds. Only one other qb gets the ball out of his hands faster. Eli, actually is actually 8th at 2.66 seconds. Every quarterback in the league is below 3 seconds, statues or not.
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing/2019/all#average-time-to-throw
Also, not for nothing, but Dan Marino (the most statuesque of all statues) laughs at all your guys' Eli excuses. He had it much worse than Eli had with poorer defenses, poorer running games, and so-so offensive lines at best. Despite all that, his numbers are obviously unreal. That's a sure fire hall of famer. Nobody doubted that.
Not sure why you think I'm making excuses. He's gonna make the HoF. Why do I need to make excuses? Just saying that Eli gets all the hate with what's going on with the Giants. When there are legit, so many other things wrong with that team for almost a decade now. Also, Dan Marino... What?? I wouldn't call his numbers unreal. They are good, but not unreal. Poorer defenses? Eli won Superbowls with his defenses ranked 17th and 25th. Dan Marino had a top 10 defense five times in his career and couldn't close.
Dan Marino played for 17 years and rarely got hurt. Of course he will have high numbers. Since you're a stat guy, DM's personal career numbers and averages are barely above Eli's at 15 years, who we call mediocre with two rings. DM just did it in a much more consistent manner than Eli's roller coaster. Not arguing his HoF status or arguing who is better, or mean to compare the two, but I guess great and unreal are just two different things to me. Since you brought him up laughing at our "excuses" for Eli. I will however, call DM great, and a pioneer.
All that I once held as true
I stand alone without beliefs
The only truth I know is you.