***The Official Philadelphia Phillies 2012 Thread***

jamminpearls

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Johnny Abruzzo wrote:

Stutes/Bastardo/Bell/Madson is a sick lock-down bullpen. You really don't need much offense with that pitching staff.

Yeah, but still need to score runs to win - pitching isn't going to help with that. Plus, how many times would need all of them when Halladay/Hamels/Lee are going out there? And, they're not just going to forget about Lidge and his salary.

Lidge's salary goes away after this year so i think they'd forget about him pretty easy if they got Bell. Lidge would be no more then a 7th maybe a 8th inning guy when healthy.

Jearlpam0925

Madson will definitely be cheaper, and Bell I think is a Type-A, so you let him walk and take the picks. First order of business at the end of the year is whether to re-sign Jimmy or not, then Madson, then Hamels. It's either extend Hamels now or wait till the end of the season, with the first part being an obviously better move.

Jearlpam0925

The fact is Lidge's money IS on the payroll, so why would they pay EXTRA for a setup guy when you know whole-heartedly they want to get as much out of Lidge as possible.

jamminpearls

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Madson will definitely be cheaper, and Bell I think is a Type-A, so you let him walk and take the picks. First order of business at the end of the year is whether to re-sign Jimmy or not, then Madson, then Hamels. It's either extend Hamels now or wait till the end of the season, with the first part being an obviously better move.

Hamels,the closer spot,then Rollins would be my order of importance. I'm not sure who would be cheaper only cause Boras is madson's agent. But a bat would be my first order of business.

Jearlpam0925

Yeah, I'm talking off-season moves. Doesn't matter how much Boras pumps Madson up, he doesn't have the numbers(read: the overrated 'save' statistic) to garner as much money as either of them think he's worth. Madson will be a Phillie. Whether they pay Hamels this offseason or next, there's no way Cole isn't here. And for these two reasons is why Jimmy is first on the list, followed by Madson. The dearth of shortstops this offseason will make Reyes overpaid, subsequently putting Rollins in a sweet spot for a payoff. They should be able to afford all three, and they most likely will pay all three.

Cliffy6745

I was talking about this on Saturday with a couple friends. If I were Hamels, no shot I take a 5 year $100 million deal.

He's 27 right now and will be 28 next year, meaning his first free agent year will be his 29 year old season. If he does that, it will be taking him through is 33 year old season at $20 million per. Then at 33, god knows what he will be looking at, depends on what he does but who knows what kind of contract he will be getting.

Dude is pretty much the best pitcher in baseball right now. If he hits free agency, he will be looking at at least a 7 year deal in the $23 million range.

If he wants to stay in Philly then maybe he'll take it, but that would be a big discount. CC was 29 when he signed his 7 year/$161 million deal

The Verlander situation is a little different because it bought out 2 years or arbitration. Hamels has nothing to lose pitching one more season and hitting the market where as Verlander would have been taking a little bigger risk.

What gets it done?

The Juggler

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Johnny Abruzzo wrote:

Halladay facing this lineup tomorrow:

The AL has Yankees center fielder Curtis Granderson leading off, followed by Cleveland shortstop Asdrubal Cabrera, Boston first baseman Adrian Gonzalez, Toronto right fielder Jose Bautista, Texas left fielder Josh Hamilton, Rangers third baseman Adrian Beltre, Boston designated hitter David Ortiz, Yankees second baseman Robinson Cano and Detroit catcher Alex Avila.

Awesome! Even if it's a stupid exhibition game, that's pretty fun to watch.

Yeah, I wish it was like that in the 8th or 9th too instead of seeing the epic matchups of Howie Kendrick against Tyler Clippard. :eh:

this time it counts though.

Johnny Abruzzo

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Whether they pay Hamels this offseason or next, there's no way Cole isn't here.

I don't have any idea why you would be so confident in this. If he becomes a FA, all bets are off. Also, I'd say he's one of Phila's most unappreciated athletes. :roll:

jamminpearls

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Yeah, I'm talking off-season moves. Doesn't matter how much Boras pumps Madson up, he doesn't have the numbers(read: the overrated 'save' statistic) to garner as much money as either of them think he's worth. Madson will be a Phillie. Whether they pay Hamels this offseason or next, there's no way Cole isn't here. And for these two reasons is why Jimmy is first on the list, followed by Madson. The dearth of shortstops this offseason will make Reyes overpaid, subsequently putting Rollins in a sweet spot for a payoff. They should be able to afford all three, and they most likely will pay all three.

I agree about Madson but with Boras it only takes one team like Wash did with Werth for him to leave. The longer Hamels pitches this good the higher his salary goes,that's why i'd try and lock him up asap. 5-100 imo would get him signed now. Would u pay Jimmy what he thinks he's worth? Cause i sure wouldn't pay him over 13 a year at no longer then 3yrs. He said yesterday he won't be giving a home town discount and to me that's a sign he's leaving.

Cliffy6745

jamminpearls wrote:

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Yeah, I'm talking off-season moves. Doesn't matter how much Boras pumps Madson up, he doesn't have the numbers(read: the overrated 'save' statistic) to garner as much money as either of them think he's worth. Madson will be a Phillie. Whether they pay Hamels this offseason or next, there's no way Cole isn't here. And for these two reasons is why Jimmy is first on the list, followed by Madson. The dearth of shortstops this offseason will make Reyes overpaid, subsequently putting Rollins in a sweet spot for a payoff. They should be able to afford all three, and they most likely will pay all three.

I agree about Madson but with Boras it only takes one team like Wash did with Werth for him to leave. The longer Hamels pitches this good the higher his salary goes,that's why i'd try and lock him up asap. 5-100 imo would get him signed now. Would u pay Jimmy what he thinks he's worth? Cause i sure wouldn't pay him over 13 a year at no longer then 3yrs. He said yesterday he won't be giving a home town discount and to me that's a sign he's leaving.

Like I said in my thinking above, I don't think 5/100 gets it done and especially not with what a much older Cliff Lee got and what CC got/is going to get. There is no incentive for him taking that deal.

jamminpearls

Cliffy6745 wrote:

jamminpearls wrote:

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Yeah, I'm talking off-season moves. Doesn't matter how much Boras pumps Madson up, he doesn't have the numbers(read: the overrated 'save' statistic) to garner as much money as either of them think he's worth. Madson will be a Phillie. Whether they pay Hamels this offseason or next, there's no way Cole isn't here. And for these two reasons is why Jimmy is first on the list, followed by Madson. The dearth of shortstops this offseason will make Reyes overpaid, subsequently putting Rollins in a sweet spot for a payoff. They should be able to afford all three, and they most likely will pay all three.

I agree about Madson but with Boras it only takes one team like Wash did with Werth for him to leave. The longer Hamels pitches this good the higher his salary goes,that's why i'd try and lock him up asap. 5-100 imo would get him signed now. Would u pay Jimmy what he thinks he's worth? Cause i sure wouldn't pay him over 13 a year at no longer then 3yrs. He said yesterday he won't be giving a home town discount and to me that's a sign he's leaving.

Like I said in my thinking above, I don't think 5/100 gets it done and especially not with what a much older Cliff Lee got and what CC got/is going to get. There is no incentive for him taking that deal.

Jayson Stark said he thought he'd do it cause he'll still get another big deal like Lee did when he's 32-33.

Johnny Abruzzo

jamminpearls wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Like I said in my thinking above, I don't think 5/100 gets it done and especially not with what a much older Cliff Lee got and what CC got/is going to get. There is no incentive for him taking that deal.

Jayson Stark said he thought he'd do it cause he'll still get another big deal like Lee did when he's 32-33.

Lee was already a FA. Hamels has 1.5 years to go - plenty of time to blow out a ligament. That's why they need to do it NOW.

Cliffy6745

jamminpearls wrote:

Jayson Stark said he thought he'd do it cause he'll still get another big deal like Lee did when he's 32-33.

But no one knows if he will get a big deal when he is 33. What if he loses it, what if he blows out his arm, what if he needs back surgery. You take your "career" contract the first possible moment it is offered to you. You don't say, well, I will take $100 million now and hope I can get another $60 million over the next few years. What sense does that make? If you have the opportunity for a $150+ million contract, you take it.

Edit: And I am not looking at $100 million as a career contract for Cole Hamels.

Cliffy6745

Johnny Abruzzo wrote:

jamminpearls wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Like I said in my thinking above, I don't think 5/100 gets it done and especially not with what a much older Cliff Lee got and what CC got/is going to get. There is no incentive for him taking that deal.

Jayson Stark said he thought he'd do it cause he'll still get another big deal like Lee did when he's 32-33.

Lee was already a FA. Hamels has 1.5 years to go - plenty of time to blow out a ligament. That's why they need to do it NOW.

I take the year risk for the bigger contract. Boston and the Yankees will both need pitching after next year.

Edit: And I agree that the Phillies have to keep him, I just think he is worth more than the numbers that have been thrown out there.

Johnny Abruzzo

Cliffy6745 wrote:

I take the year risk for the bigger contract. Boston and the Yankees will both need pitching after next year.

Typical Yankees mindset. :roll:

I think 5/$110M gets it done, considering the risk in waiting for the end of next year.

Cliffy6745

Johnny Abruzzo wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

I take the year risk for the bigger contract. Boston and the Yankees will both need pitching after next year.

Typical Yankees mindset. :roll:

I think 5/$110M gets it done, considering the risk in waiting for the end of next year.

How is that a Yankees mindset? If the two biggest baseball markets in the league with the two highest payrolls in the game both need pitching and one of the best pitchers is a free agent, isn't it a foregone conclusion that he will make more money, regardless of who he ends up with?

Cliffy6745

And my thing is less the AAV and more the years. I don't see 5 years getting it done. I could be wrong, but I think he will want more than that.

Johnny Abruzzo

Cliffy6745 wrote:

How is that a Yankees mindset? If the two biggest baseball markets in the league with the two highest payrolls in the game both need pitching and one of the best pitchers is a free agent, isn't it a foregone conclusion that he will make more money, regardless of who he ends up with?

The mindset is that there's a great player somewhere and he will end up on my team at some point. It's ingrained in all Yankees fans. You're no different. Sorry buddy, them's the facts.

Cliffy6745

Johnny Abruzzo wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

How is that a Yankees mindset? If the two biggest baseball markets in the league with the two highest payrolls in the game both need pitching and one of the best pitchers is a free agent, isn't it a foregone conclusion that he will make more money, regardless of who he ends up with?

The mindset is that there's a great player somewhere and he will end up on my team at some point. It's ingrained in all Yankees fans. You're no different. Sorry buddy, them's the facts.

My point is not that he is going to end up on the Yankees even though I would obviously love him to and more that those teams need pitching and can pay the most. It's kind of logical, no? Whether he ends up on the Yankees, Phillies, Red Sox or Angels for that matter, when big market teams need pitching, you get paid more and at his age, I would be looking for a CC type contract and not worry about getting hurt next season.

And yeah, I do think that if the Yankees want someone and they are available, 9 times out of 10 they will get them, obviously there are exceptions (See: Cliff Lee) but that is fairly rare. It's not because I think my team is so great, which I do, but it is because of how much money they have.

The Juggler

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Johnny Abruzzo wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

How is that a Yankees mindset? If the two biggest baseball markets in the league with the two highest payrolls in the game both need pitching and one of the best pitchers is a free agent, isn't it a foregone conclusion that he will make more money, regardless of who he ends up with?

The mindset is that there's a great player somewhere and he will end up on my team at some point. It's ingrained in all Yankees fans. You're no different. Sorry buddy, them's the facts.

My point is not that he is going to end up on the Yankees even though I would obviously love him to and more that those teams need pitching and can pay the most. It's kind of logical, no? Whether he ends up on the Yankees, Phillies, Red Sox or Angels for that matter, when big market teams need pitching, you get paid more and at his age, I would be looking for a CC type contract and not worry about getting hurt next season.

And yeah, I do think that if the Yankees want someone and they are available, 9 times out of 10 they will get them, obviously there are exceptions (See: Cliff Lee) but that is fairly rare. It's not because I think my team is so great, which I do, but it is because of how much money they have.