I had to get over it, make a judgement call about each incident and the person involved and not allow it to colour my view of all men or place unreasonable expectations upon them. Maybe you could try doing the same?
I understand that completely. And I don't place unreasonable expectations upon them, I think.
My point is still the same as it was in the beginning of this thread: Mutual respect.
You prefer it when guys are discreet and if they don't you move on or avert your eyes.
Most people prefer it when women are discreet about breastfeeding, (especially the ones that are uncomfortable with it) and if mothers aren't discreet about it they should, like I said, also just avert their eyes and move on.
Well this all comes down to repect for other people's feelings, as an adult you would be able to deal with the awkwardness of the situation far better than a young teenage boy. And also, in this situation, you don't know them that well, in this situation they are say, your friend's son who has spent barely any time around you and has never seen you breastfeed.
well shit why didnt you say this boy was barely known to me? ok in this instance then i would have expected his parental unit to have informed him that the need for me to breastfeed my child was a very real possibility. it is the responsibility of the 14 year old's parental unit to deal with his qualms. if my friend hadnt done so, then i of course would try to be as discreet as i usually am in 'public' situations.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
well shit why didnt you say this boy was barely known to me? ok in this instance then i would have expected his parental unit to have informed him that the need for me to breastfeed my child was a very real possibility. it is the responsibility of the 14 year old's parental unit to deal with his qualms. if my friend hadnt done so, then i of course would try to be as discreet as i usually am in 'public' situations.
You should also know, Cate, that in this situation there's a creepy little guy inconspicuously taking pictures of your breast.
well shit why didnt you say this boy was barely known to me? ok in this instance then i would have expected his parental unit to have informed him that the need for me to breastfeed my child was a very real possibility. it is the responsibility of the 14 year old's parental unit to deal with his qualms. if my friend hadnt done so, then i of course would try to be as discreet as i usually am in 'public' situations .
Therefore you acknowledge my original point, excellent, glad to see we're on the same page at last!
I can't believe you possibly think the two situations are comparable..
How are they not? You're whining that as a young man you were highly embarrased by a woman exposing a sexual organ in your presence because clearly you do not see the female breast as the mammary gland that feeds a baby and I'm saying that I also was traumatized by men exposing their sexual organ in front of me without a valid reason at all as it turns out.
And quite clearly I have done the same by stating that the vast majority of women do show discretion. This is possibly the most ridiculous post in this entire thread.
But yours wasn't?
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm quite sure you will) but are you or are you not placing conditions on a woman regarding the exposure of her breast based on your level of comfort and what you deem as appropriate?
Given that you have probably also been exposed to the female breast in a sexual way throughout your life and quite likely in a public place given just how many times in a day the female breast is exposed to the world, what I find completely ridiculous is that when it's done for your sexual gratification it's not embarrassing but if you're chowing down in the food court and some poor kid wants to also, you expect his mother to keep her breasts covered up. In other words your desire for a woman to use discretion when exposing her breasts is completely subjective and dependent on how you view the purpose of the breast.
Breast feeding breast = discretion must be used
Page 3 girl breast = shake those jubblies for all their worth sweetheart, I can't wait to look at them.
Actually when it comes to the most ridiculous post in the thread I think that goes to the baby burka post which I'm fairly sure you brought to everyone's attention.
How are they not? You're whining that as a young man you were highly embarrased by a woman exposing a sexual organ in your presence because clearly you do not see the female breast as the mammary gland that feeds a baby and I'm saying that I also was traumatized by men exposing their sexual organ in front of me without a valid reason at all as it turns out.
I was not whining at all, I was just saying that it caused needless embarrassment where a little discretion would have prevented that and wouldn't have been too much to ask for. What's more you are the one who has just made refference to them as a sexual objects, not me. And it is in no way comparable to the situations you just spoke about. I would suggest you find some new people to hang around with if you are "constantly" subjected to men whipping their penis' out in front of you. A comparable situation would be if I was "constantly" subjected to women who dropped their pants, pissed in front of me, removed their tampons in front of me, and masturbated in front of me - I wouldn't want to hang about those type of women either.
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm quite sure you will) but are you or are you not placing conditions on a woman regarding the exposure of her breast based on your level of comfort and what you deem as appropriate?
Given that you have probably also been exposed to the female breast in a sexual way throughout your life and quite likely in a public place given just how many times in a day the female breast is exposed to the world, what I find completely ridiculous is that when it's done for your sexual gratification it's not embarrassing but if you're chowing down in the food court and some poor kid wants to also, you expect his mother to keep her breasts covered up. In other words your desire for a woman to use discretion when exposing her breasts is completely subjective and dependent on how you view the purpose of the breast.
Breast feeding breast = discretion must be used
Page 3 girl breast = shake those jubblies for all their worth sweetheart, I can't wait to look at them.
Actually when it comes to the most ridiculous post in the thread I think that goes to the baby burka post which I'm fairly sure you brought to everyone's attention.
I DID NOT MAKE THE POST ABOUT THE BABY BURKA THAT WAS SOMEONE ELSE!! All I have said at all is that a little discretion doesn't hurt anyone involved. I said nothing about blankets, or anything of the sort, and I have said a few times that a woman has every right to breast feed, the fact that all the breast feeding mothers on here have said that they try to use some discretion completely proves my point. And you don't know me at all to say what I find acceptable in terms of Page 3 girls etc, which I find ridiculous, especially given the Sun newspaper's ready willingness to make self-righteous judgements about any 'pervert's they feature in their paper.
Well this all comes down to repect for other people's feelings, as an adult you would be able to deal with the awkwardness of the situation far better than a young teenage boy. And also, in this situation, you don't know them that well, in this situation they are say, your friend's son who has spent barely any time around you and has never seen you breastfeed.
So.... Is the point for you that a breastfeeding mother DESEXUALIZES the breast and therefore we shouldn't be doing this to our young men?
I mean...crap... I'm sure most young men may be a little embarrassed if they were watching a GGW vid or looking at a Playboy or Penthouse in front of others... But I'll bet many want to look... as frequently as possible. And I'm sure many young boys do it together when one gets their hands on a magazine.
So...what...breastfeeding moms shouldn't fuck up these young men's fantasies of titties being there solely for their use an objectification?
in this instance discretion is me doing what i can to feel comfortable in feeding my child, without hindering what it is i am doing. my child always takes priority. i wont deliberately flaunt my breast, but if per chance someone cops an eyeful, then i cant apologise for that. it is what it is.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
So.... Is the point for you that a breastfeeding mother DESEXUALIZES the breast and therefore we shouldn't be doing this to our young men?
You're trying to rationalise it from an adult's perspective - it shouldnt be embarrassing, but to a hormonal teenager who may not have been presented with the situation before it is awkward, and I think (in the particular situation I was talking about) unnecessay.
I mean...crap... I'm sure most young men may be a little embarrassed if they were watching a GGW vid or looking at a Playboy or Penthouse in front of others... But I'll bet many want to look... as frequently as possible. And I'm sure many young boys do it together when one gets their hands on a magazine.
So...what...breastfeeding moms shouldn't fuck up these young men's fantasies of titties being there solely for their use an objectification?
I don't know what GGW means, a porno film? I don't really understand the whole argument that men have objectified women's breasts solely for their sexual gratification. The implication is that women don't get any sexual pleasure from them, which clearly is not true.
in this instance discretion is me doing what i can to feel comfortable in feeding my child, without hindering what it is i am doing. my child always takes priority. i wont deliberately flaunt my breast, but if per chance someone cops an eyeful, then i cant apologise for that. it is what it is.
I understand that completely. And I don't place unreasonable expectations upon them, I think.
My point is still the same as it was in the beginning of this thread: Mutual respect.
You prefer it when guys are discreet and if they don't you move on or avert your eyes.
Most people prefer it when women are discreet about breastfeeding, (especially the ones that are uncomfortable with it) and if mothers aren't discreet about it they should, like I said, also just avert their eyes and move on.
Yeah, but Collin, you're still wanting breast feeding women to do so in a more appropriate place or cover up aren't you? You support placing conditions on how a woman breastfeeds in public in order to appease other people's sensibilities?
And women are actually exposing themselves for a legitimate purpose, that of feeding their child.
I place no expectation on the guy exposing himself to cover up, I simply get the hell away from him as fast as I can and we can't really say that two of the examples that I gave really qualify as a legitimate purpose now, can we? (I say that indicating that if I happen to see a guy's dick whilst he's relieving himself then I view that as more of a legitimate reason for his penis to be out of his pants in public. Not ideal but with a degree of legitimacy that the other two examples I gave do not have.)
This is where I'm having trouble because to me I think I have a perfectly reasonable right to expect that men do not expose their penises at me unless it happens inadvertently while they are relieving themselves but it happens, has happened, but I don't suggest they cover up, or tell them they can't do that here or send them off to a changing room to jack off in private. I just move away. Just as you have said that you would. Just as if I came across a woman exposing her breasts for the hell of it I would do the same. Whether a guy in the same situation has a good old perve or not I couldn't care less. Power to them. Perhaps I could understand if people where having more of an issue with women exposing their breasts purely for sexual gratification purposes but people are actually getting upset about women exposing their breasts during the course of using them for their intended function. That seems seriously not right to me. So sure we can talk about mutual respect and about being aware of other people's comfort and sensibilities when we expose body parts in public but I simply cannot condone the placing of conditions on a woman for doing so while they breastfeed if nobody seems even remotely to be dishing out the same kinds of expectations when a body part is exposed in a sexual manner.
I was not whining at all, I was just saying that it caused needless embarrassment where a little discretion would have prevented that and wouldn't have been too much to ask for. What's more you are the one who has just made refference to them as a sexual objects, not me. And it is in no way comparable to the situations you just spoke about.
Why then were you embarrassed? If they're just another body part to you, why is discretion required?
I would suggest you find some new people to hang around with if you are "constantly" subjected to men whipping their penis' out in front of you. A comparable situation would be if I was "constantly" subjected to women who dropped their pants, pissed in front of me, removed their tampons in front of me, and masturbated in front of me - I wouldn't want to hang about those type of women either..
So you're suggesting that as a child I have choices about where I live and that men exposing themselves at me is my fault because I need to find new places to hang out? That I, as a child, brought it upon myself simply by being there? I guess then you, being exposed to a female breast for the purposes of breastfeeding while you were a young man, must bear some responsibility for being where you were then?
I DID NOT MAKE THE POST ABOUT THE BABY BURKA THAT WAS SOMEONE ELSE!! All I have said at all is that a little discretion doesn't hurt anyone involved. I said nothing about blankets, or anything of the sort, and I have said a few times that a woman has every right to breast feed, the fact that all the breast feeding mothers on here have said that they try to use some discretion completely proves my point. And you don't know me at all to say what I find acceptable in terms of Page 3 girls etc, which I find ridiculous, especially given the Sun newspaper's ready willingness to make self-righteous judgements about any 'pervert's they feature in their paper.
Right point taken. I'm just wondering do you place the same expectation of discretion on those in the Sun as you do breast feeding mothers?
Yeah, but Collin, you're still wanting breast feeding women to do so in a more appropriate place or cover up aren't you? You support placing conditions on how a woman breastfeeds in public in order to appease other people's sensibilities?
Nope. I really really really don't give a damn where you feed your child. Let that be clear. I have no problem with breastfeeding whatsoever. None.
Like I said, I might get a little uncomfortable because I think it's a private matter between the mother and the child. I avert my eyes because I don't want to invade your privacy.
So once again and for the last time: I don't have a problem with breastfeeding, I don't care where you do it and how...
But! there are people who do have a problem with it. And some of these have certain rights, restaurant owners - if it's private property - have the right to decide what's allowed in their establishment, hence the "no shoes, no shirt, no service" signs. If a owner of a restaurant deems that a naked breast is a naked breast regardless of its purpose, he should have the right to do something about it. I think this is where the compromise comes into place, I think it's irrational and basically wrong to tell the woman to leave, but he could ask her to cover up or go to a private place away from the rest of the patrons.
That way your right to breastfeed is not infringed upon and his right to choose what's acceptable in his business isn't infringed upon either.
I support compromise. I support women's right to breastfeed and a business owner's right to set certain rules for his establishment.
If you think a breastfeeding woman's rights are above the rights of the proprietor, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Nope. I really really really don't give a damn where you feed your child. Let that be clear. I have no problem with breastfeeding whatsoever. None.
Like I said, I might get a little uncomfortable because I think it's a private matter between the mother and the child. I avert my eyes because I don't want to invade your privacy.
So once again and for the last time: I don't have a problem with breastfeeding, I don't care where you do it and how....
But! there are people who do have a problem with it. And some of these have certain rights, restaurant owners - if it's private property - have the right to decide what's allowed in their establishment hence the "no shoes, no shirt, no service" signs. If a owner of a restaurant deems that a naked breast is a naked breast regardless of its purpose, he should have the right to do something about it. I think this is where the compromise comes into place, I think it's irrational and basically wrong to tell the woman to leave, but he could ask her to cover up or go to a private place away from the rest of the patrons.
That way your right to breastfeed is not infringed upon and his right to choose what's acceptable in his business isn't infringed upon either.
I support compromise. I support women's right to breastfeed and a business owner's right to set certain rules for his establishment.
Sure he can do something about it, but then I hope he doesn't go getting all upset when his customer decides to boycott his restaurant, or rally other people who feel his expectations are unreasonable with regard to his stance and stage a protest outside his establishment. I can't see that being too good for business!
Just as people did when restaurant owners and shopkeepers and bus services and movie theatres etc decided that they wouldn't serve or allow black people into their establishments OR expected them to only patronise the establishment in a segregated area. Or as people have done when proprietors have limited access to their establishments for people with disabilities. This is how change is brought about. Obviously right now there is still many people that cannot cope with a woman breastfeeding in public but I can't see that being the status quo in the future because people, like the women that have protested outside H & M, will continue to educate, bring awareness and stand up for what is right.
But besides that there's still the issue of private property. The owner of a bar, restaurant, store... has a right to decide what is acceptable in his store. If he doesn't want people comming in topless he has a right to tell them to wear a shirt or leave. The same goes for breastfeeding. This person's livelihood depends on his business and his customers. If his customers complain he can say it's his property and he decides what is allowed and what is not, but he could very well risk losing a few customers if he allows the mother to stay. He could of course offer her to go somewhere more quiet, away from the dining guests... But no, some of you, I don't know where you stand anymore, feel there's no need for compromise, that others' rights can be trampled on... and I don't agree with that.
I don't think breastfeeding mothers have the right to trespass. So why should they take other people's feelings into consideration, well, first of all, you might be on their property and you might actually be costing the owner money because of your breastfeeding (well, because of people who cannot stand breastfeeding).
Actually, that's not true. kcherub & comebackgirl pointed out quite some time ago that "Thirty-nine states, the District of Columbia and the Virgin Islands have laws with language specifically allowing women to breastfeed in any public or private location." http://www.ncsl.org/programs/health/breast50.htm
It's the breastfeeding woman - not the store owner - who has the right in these situations.
Sure he can do something about it, but then I hope he doesn't go getting all upset when his customer decides to boycott his restaurant, or rally other people who feel his expectations are unreasonable with regard to his stance and stage a protest outside his establishment. I can't see that being too good for business!
Just as people did when restaurant owners and shopkeepers and bus services and movie theatres etc decided that they wouldn't serve or allow black people into their establishments OR expected them to only patronise the establishment in a segregated area. Or as people have done when proprietors have limited access to their establishments for people with disabilities. This is how change is brought about. Obviously right now there is still many people that cannot cope with a woman breastfeeding in public but I can't see that being the status quo in the future because people, like the women that have protested outside H & M, will continue to educate, bring awareness and stand up for what is right.
Well, that would be not respecting his rights, imo. It would be trying to impose your will on him.
I don't see the connexion with the African-American civil rights movement, Jeanie.
A proprietor has a right to decide nudity is not allowed in his establishment. A topless black person, a topless white person, a topless man or a topless woman... he can all tell them to either wear a shirt or leave.
A breast is a breast, and a naked breast is a naked breast regardless of its purpose.
A proprietor cannot deny access to their establishment because they have a certain skin colour or are a certain gender, or have a certain disability. He cannot deny access to a mother with child (for all these cases, I'm sure there are exceptions of course). But he can say nudity is not allowed.
So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I would also disagree with naturists who protest in front of a restaurant because another nudist was kicked out.
Actually, that's not true. kcherub & comebackgirl pointed out quite some time ago that "Thirty-nine states, the District of Columbia and the Virgin Islands have laws with language specifically allowing women to breastfeed in any public or private location." http://www.ncsl.org/programs/health/breast50.htm
It's the breastfeeding woman - not the store owner - who has the right in these situations.
In these situations, yes. There are more than 39 states, however.
edit: that doesn't change the fact that a little mutual respect is probably the way to go.
I understand how important a child is to a mother.
Do you? Perhaps we should have started with this question to begin with. I don't claim to fully understand how important a child is to a mother, especially since I don't have children and because I'm not that mother of that child. But you claim to have this knowledge?
Do you? Perhaps we should have started with this question to begin with. I don't claim to fully understand how important a child is to a mother, especially since I don't have children and because I'm not that mother of that child. But you claim to have this knowledge?
no youre wrong. it is actually how important a mother is to the child. left alone and unattended without artificial intervention the child would die. and by child i mean baby.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Do you? Perhaps we should have started with this question to begin with. I don't claim to fully understand how important a child is to a mother, especially since I don't have children and because I'm not that mother of that child. But you claim to have this knowledge?
I'm not a mother either But I am a child and I have a mother, and no one has sacrificied more for me and my brother than my mother. I've only recently discovered how much it was she exactly sacrificied for us... but I can tell you this, her love for us must be very very strong...
Once again, I think you overestimate the rights of the store owner.
I missed the link kcherub & comebackgirl's link... You pointed it out to me.
Comments
I understand that completely. And I don't place unreasonable expectations upon them, I think.
My point is still the same as it was in the beginning of this thread: Mutual respect.
You prefer it when guys are discreet and if they don't you move on or avert your eyes.
Most people prefer it when women are discreet about breastfeeding, (especially the ones that are uncomfortable with it) and if mothers aren't discreet about it they should, like I said, also just avert their eyes and move on.
naděje umírá poslední
well shit why didnt you say this boy was barely known to me? ok in this instance then i would have expected his parental unit to have informed him that the need for me to breastfeed my child was a very real possibility. it is the responsibility of the 14 year old's parental unit to deal with his qualms. if my friend hadnt done so, then i of course would try to be as discreet as i usually am in 'public' situations.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
You should also know, Cate, that in this situation there's a creepy little guy inconspicuously taking pictures of your breast.
naděje umírá poslední
Therefore you acknowledge my original point, excellent, glad to see we're on the same page at last!
that is creepy, but who gives a shit. honestly. however if i catch him at it, hes a eunuch.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Topic integrity, please. No Chatting.
naděje umírá poslední
ive never not advocated discretion.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
How are they not? You're whining that as a young man you were highly embarrased by a woman exposing a sexual organ in your presence because clearly you do not see the female breast as the mammary gland that feeds a baby and I'm saying that I also was traumatized by men exposing their sexual organ in front of me without a valid reason at all as it turns out.
But yours wasn't?
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm quite sure you will) but are you or are you not placing conditions on a woman regarding the exposure of her breast based on your level of comfort and what you deem as appropriate?
Given that you have probably also been exposed to the female breast in a sexual way throughout your life and quite likely in a public place given just how many times in a day the female breast is exposed to the world, what I find completely ridiculous is that when it's done for your sexual gratification it's not embarrassing but if you're chowing down in the food court and some poor kid wants to also, you expect his mother to keep her breasts covered up. In other words your desire for a woman to use discretion when exposing her breasts is completely subjective and dependent on how you view the purpose of the breast.
Breast feeding breast = discretion must be used
Page 3 girl breast = shake those jubblies for all their worth sweetheart, I can't wait to look at them.
Actually when it comes to the most ridiculous post in the thread I think that goes to the baby burka post which I'm fairly sure you brought to everyone's attention.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I was not whining at all, I was just saying that it caused needless embarrassment where a little discretion would have prevented that and wouldn't have been too much to ask for. What's more you are the one who has just made refference to them as a sexual objects, not me. And it is in no way comparable to the situations you just spoke about. I would suggest you find some new people to hang around with if you are "constantly" subjected to men whipping their penis' out in front of you. A comparable situation would be if I was "constantly" subjected to women who dropped their pants, pissed in front of me, removed their tampons in front of me, and masturbated in front of me - I wouldn't want to hang about those type of women either.
I DID NOT MAKE THE POST ABOUT THE BABY BURKA THAT WAS SOMEONE ELSE!! All I have said at all is that a little discretion doesn't hurt anyone involved. I said nothing about blankets, or anything of the sort, and I have said a few times that a woman has every right to breast feed, the fact that all the breast feeding mothers on here have said that they try to use some discretion completely proves my point. And you don't know me at all to say what I find acceptable in terms of Page 3 girls etc, which I find ridiculous, especially given the Sun newspaper's ready willingness to make self-righteous judgements about any 'pervert's they feature in their paper.
So.... Is the point for you that a breastfeeding mother DESEXUALIZES the breast and therefore we shouldn't be doing this to our young men?
I mean...crap... I'm sure most young men may be a little embarrassed if they were watching a GGW vid or looking at a Playboy or Penthouse in front of others... But I'll bet many want to look... as frequently as possible. And I'm sure many young boys do it together when one gets their hands on a magazine.
So...what...breastfeeding moms shouldn't fuck up these young men's fantasies of titties being there solely for their use an objectification?
Enlighten me with yours
in this instance discretion is me doing what i can to feel comfortable in feeding my child, without hindering what it is i am doing. my child always takes priority. i wont deliberately flaunt my breast, but if per chance someone cops an eyeful, then i cant apologise for that. it is what it is.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
You're trying to rationalise it from an adult's perspective - it shouldnt be embarrassing, but to a hormonal teenager who may not have been presented with the situation before it is awkward, and I think (in the particular situation I was talking about) unnecessay.
I don't know what GGW means, a porno film? I don't really understand the whole argument that men have objectified women's breasts solely for their sexual gratification. The implication is that women don't get any sexual pleasure from them, which clearly is not true.
Yep, I could go along with that.
Yeah, but Collin, you're still wanting breast feeding women to do so in a more appropriate place or cover up aren't you? You support placing conditions on how a woman breastfeeds in public in order to appease other people's sensibilities?
And women are actually exposing themselves for a legitimate purpose, that of feeding their child.
I place no expectation on the guy exposing himself to cover up, I simply get the hell away from him as fast as I can and we can't really say that two of the examples that I gave really qualify as a legitimate purpose now, can we? (I say that indicating that if I happen to see a guy's dick whilst he's relieving himself then I view that as more of a legitimate reason for his penis to be out of his pants in public. Not ideal but with a degree of legitimacy that the other two examples I gave do not have.)
This is where I'm having trouble because to me I think I have a perfectly reasonable right to expect that men do not expose their penises at me unless it happens inadvertently while they are relieving themselves but it happens, has happened, but I don't suggest they cover up, or tell them they can't do that here or send them off to a changing room to jack off in private. I just move away. Just as you have said that you would. Just as if I came across a woman exposing her breasts for the hell of it I would do the same. Whether a guy in the same situation has a good old perve or not I couldn't care less. Power to them. Perhaps I could understand if people where having more of an issue with women exposing their breasts purely for sexual gratification purposes but people are actually getting upset about women exposing their breasts during the course of using them for their intended function. That seems seriously not right to me. So sure we can talk about mutual respect and about being aware of other people's comfort and sensibilities when we expose body parts in public but I simply cannot condone the placing of conditions on a woman for doing so while they breastfeed if nobody seems even remotely to be dishing out the same kinds of expectations when a body part is exposed in a sexual manner.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
It feels like we all are!!!
Hand me that blanket would ya? I think I need it!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Why then were you embarrassed? If they're just another body part to you, why is discretion required?
So you're suggesting that as a child I have choices about where I live and that men exposing themselves at me is my fault because I need to find new places to hang out? That I, as a child, brought it upon myself simply by being there? I guess then you, being exposed to a female breast for the purposes of breastfeeding while you were a young man, must bear some responsibility for being where you were then?
Right point taken. I'm just wondering do you place the same expectation of discretion on those in the Sun as you do breast feeding mothers?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Nope. I really really really don't give a damn where you feed your child. Let that be clear. I have no problem with breastfeeding whatsoever. None.
Like I said, I might get a little uncomfortable because I think it's a private matter between the mother and the child. I avert my eyes because I don't want to invade your privacy.
So once again and for the last time: I don't have a problem with breastfeeding, I don't care where you do it and how...
But! there are people who do have a problem with it. And some of these have certain rights, restaurant owners - if it's private property - have the right to decide what's allowed in their establishment, hence the "no shoes, no shirt, no service" signs. If a owner of a restaurant deems that a naked breast is a naked breast regardless of its purpose, he should have the right to do something about it. I think this is where the compromise comes into place, I think it's irrational and basically wrong to tell the woman to leave, but he could ask her to cover up or go to a private place away from the rest of the patrons.
That way your right to breastfeed is not infringed upon and his right to choose what's acceptable in his business isn't infringed upon either.
I support compromise. I support women's right to breastfeed and a business owner's right to set certain rules for his establishment.
If you think a breastfeeding woman's rights are above the rights of the proprietor, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
naděje umírá poslední
Glad we got that clarified finally!
Sure he can do something about it, but then I hope he doesn't go getting all upset when his customer decides to boycott his restaurant, or rally other people who feel his expectations are unreasonable with regard to his stance and stage a protest outside his establishment. I can't see that being too good for business!
Just as people did when restaurant owners and shopkeepers and bus services and movie theatres etc decided that they wouldn't serve or allow black people into their establishments OR expected them to only patronise the establishment in a segregated area. Or as people have done when proprietors have limited access to their establishments for people with disabilities. This is how change is brought about. Obviously right now there is still many people that cannot cope with a woman breastfeeding in public but I can't see that being the status quo in the future because people, like the women that have protested outside H & M, will continue to educate, bring awareness and stand up for what is right.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Actually, that's not true. kcherub & comebackgirl pointed out quite some time ago that "Thirty-nine states, the District of Columbia and the Virgin Islands have laws with language specifically allowing women to breastfeed in any public or private location."
http://www.ncsl.org/programs/health/breast50.htm
It's the breastfeeding woman - not the store owner - who has the right in these situations.
Well, that would be not respecting his rights, imo. It would be trying to impose your will on him.
I don't see the connexion with the African-American civil rights movement, Jeanie.
A proprietor has a right to decide nudity is not allowed in his establishment. A topless black person, a topless white person, a topless man or a topless woman... he can all tell them to either wear a shirt or leave.
A breast is a breast, and a naked breast is a naked breast regardless of its purpose.
A proprietor cannot deny access to their establishment because they have a certain skin colour or are a certain gender, or have a certain disability. He cannot deny access to a mother with child (for all these cases, I'm sure there are exceptions of course). But he can say nudity is not allowed.
So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I would also disagree with naturists who protest in front of a restaurant because another nudist was kicked out.
naděje umírá poslední
I see this as your core issue, Collin, and I think it's deserving of its own thread.
In these situations, yes. There are more than 39 states, however.
edit: that doesn't change the fact that a little mutual respect is probably the way to go.
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Do you? Perhaps we should have started with this question to begin with. I don't claim to fully understand how important a child is to a mother, especially since I don't have children and because I'm not that mother of that child. But you claim to have this knowledge?
Once again, I think you overestimate the rights of the store owner.
I can read the site. Not all states allow breastfeeding on someone else's property without the owner's consent.
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no youre wrong. it is actually how important a mother is to the child. left alone and unattended without artificial intervention the child would die. and by child i mean baby.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
but you know, tis irrelevent if you do or dont.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I'm not a mother either
I missed the link kcherub & comebackgirl's link... You pointed it out to me.
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