And by the way if her lover is next to her I'd think he could help out, like putting the blanket in its place, picking it up when it falls... What kind of a father would let his partner handle that all on her own when he's just sitting there?
I think its a matter of respect really - you need to go to the loo so many times a day - or even fart say, but you are strategic about where you do it! I think women should be able to feed thier babies but there is no harm in making sure you are somewhere where therer are thousands of people - for the babies sake also. . .
I think its a matter of respect really - you need to go to the loo so many times a day - or even fart say, but you are strategic about where you do it! I think women should be able to feed thier babies but there is no harm in making sure you are somewhere where therer are thousands of people - for the babies sake also. . .
babies dont notice where you feed them .:)
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Well, that would be not respecting his rights, imo. It would be trying to impose your will on him. .
Well I suppose you could see it that way. I don't. I see it as someone doesn't agree with his action and therefore they are publicly calling him out on it and hoping to effect a change in attitude. Don't forget this person that the proprietor is imposing his will on is also a customer. I grew up in a time when the customer was always right and that a good customer was a repeat customer. If he's not going to value all his customers there will be consequences for that. A good business man would know that.
I don't see the connexion with the African-American civil rights movement, Jeanie. .
What if Rosa Parkes had never got on the bus? What if MLK had never done what he did, said what he said? What if all the little people that were subjected to discrimination based on the flawed premise that they were less because of the colour of their skin had simply used discretion, taken on board that other people were embarrassed or uncomfortable seeing dark skinned people and they'd never stood up and fought for their basic human right? To be acknowledged as equal? It's a flawed premise that the human female breast should not be seen in public because it is also viewed as a sexual organ. The breast is designed in mammals for the function of feeding and the offspring of mammals require the sustenance of their mother's milk. It's their basic human right to be fed and it's the basic human right of their mothers to feed them. Hopefully if people keeping standing up there will never be qualification placed upon that act in the future. When a child needs to be fed it will be fed wherever that may be.
A proprietor has a right to decide nudity is not allowed in his establishment. A topless black person, a topless white person, a topless man or a topless woman... he can all tell them to either wear a shirt or leave.
A proprietor cannot deny access to their establishment because they have a certain skin colour or are a certain gender, or have a certain disability. He cannot deny access to a mother with child (for all these cases, I'm sure there are exceptions of course). But he can say nudity is not allowed.
Sure he can say nudity is not allowed but again breast feeding is not nudity.
I'm not a mother either But I am a child and I have a mother, and no one has sacrificied more for me and my brother than my mother. I've only recently discovered how much it was she exactly sacrificied for us... but I can tell you this, her love for us must be very very strong...
you attack my children, you attack me. my children are the only people i would die for.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Why then were you embarrassed? If they're just another body part to you, why is discretion required?
Because at the age of 14 you probably don't have enough life experience to understand such a situation. It's not one which you would likely have experienced before, and the element of "uh what do I do? what is appropriate here? am I supposed to leave the room" or something along those lines kind of comes to mind.
So you're suggesting that as a child I have choices about where I live and that men exposing themselves at me is my fault because I need to find new places to hang out? That I, as a child, brought it upon myself simply by being there? I guess then you, being exposed to a female breast for the purposes of breastfeeding while you were a young man, must bear some responsibility for being where you were then?
What can I say, I'm sorry Jeanie if you were exposed to such situations, but you have to admit it's hardly the norm for men to do that sort of thing in front of young girls. I would hope you would have had a parent you could have told if you were having men constantly exposing themselves and doing those things in front of you, but perhaps you didn't.
Right point taken. I'm just wondering do you place the same expectation of discretion on those in the Sun as you do breast feeding mothers?
That doesn't really make sense, do I place a level of expectation of discretion on a picture of a woman topless in a newspaper, a picture which has already been taken? How can you expect a woman to show discretion in a picture which has already been taken?!
Because at the age of 14 you probably don't have enough life experience to understand such a situation. It's not one which you would likely have experienced before, and the element of "uh what do I do? what is appropriate here? am I supposed to leave the room" or something along those lines kind of comes to mind.
Yeah, fair enough. I can understand that, but as you've gotten older and probably been exposed to more breast feeding situations you come to be more "comfortable" or perhaps tolerant or accepting of it yes?
Being a teenager is horrifically embarrassing so much of the time isn't it?
Perhaps I am really blase about women breast feeding now because I've been exposed to so much of it, I really don't bat an eyelid when it goes on around me anymore, it's just another part of life.
What can I say, I'm sorry Jeanie if you were exposed to such situations, but you have to admit it's hardly the norm for men to do that sort of thing in front of young girls. I would hope you would have had a parent you could have told if you were having men constantly exposing themselves and doing those things in front of you, but perhaps you didn't.
Well it's not great and apparently it's not the norm, although I didn't know that at the time I guess. Just that I was mortified and more than a little scared. Timing wasn't great with the parents so years later I was able to tell them but not at the time. I only brought it up in the first place because I don't think, regardless of the exposure being not of the norm and highly innapropriate, it's not done any long term damage as far as I can see and now I guess I'm more than a little blase about nudity in general. I suppose to that end I don't really view breastfeeding as nudity, I see it more as a nurturing thing. Hence me not understanding the need to place "descretionary" guidelines on it. If that makes sense?
That doesn't really make sense, do I place a level of expectation of discretion on a picture of a woman topless in a newspaper, a picture which has already been taken? How can you expect a woman to show discretion in a picture which has already been taken?!
Ok, what I'm saying is that many people in this thread seem to be saying that breast feeding in public is ok "as long as" and then there are whatever expectations people feel are necessary in order for them to feel that a women is behaving appropriately. So I see people saying we don't object to the exposure of the breast so much as long as certain requirements are met in order to appease our sensibilities. What I wonder is, if you open your newspaper and there's a girl on page three with her breasts fully exposed purely for entertainment purposes what kind of requirements do people feel they need of the paper or the women topless in the paper in order for their sensibilities to be appeased and if they don't, why not? It just seems that many people would just open the paper, take a look and then move on to the sports section or the horoscope and not give it any more thought, why then is it different when we're talking about breastfeeding?
You're trying to rationalise it from an adult's perspective - it shouldnt be embarrassing, but to a hormonal teenager who may not have been presented with the situation before it is awkward, and I think (in the particular situation I was talking about) unnecessay.
Just out of curiosity, do you mean it could be awkward in the sense that the teenage boy could get an erection? Seriously. (Edit: I mean, that's a serious question.)
In these situations, yes. There are more than 39 states, however.
Just because only 39 states (the vast majority of them) specifically say store owners don't have a right to tell women to stop breastfeeding doesn't mean that the other 11 states say they do. I very seriously doubt that it would fly in any state. The only thing that flies is your argument about store owner's rights - right out the window.
Because at the age of 14 you probably don't have enough life experience to understand such a situation. It's not one which you would likely have experienced before, and the element of "uh what do I do? what is appropriate here? am I supposed to leave the room" or something along those lines kind of comes to mind.
Wait - isn't this like a chicken and egg situation? You shouldn't see a woman breastfeeding until you have already seen a woman breastfeeding? Seems like a wonderful educational opportunity to me.
Because at the age of 14 you probably don't have enough life experience to understand such a situation. It's not one which you would likely have experienced before, and the element of "uh what do I do? what is appropriate here? am I supposed to leave the room" or something along those lines kind of comes to mind.
want to know what i had experience of at age 14? i can tell you it was nothing as benign as breastfeeding thats for sure.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Because at the age of 14 you probably don't have enough life experience to understand such a situation. It's not one which you would likely have experienced before, and the element of "uh what do I do? what is appropriate here? am I supposed to leave the room" or something along those lines kind of comes to mind.
Many boys have seen a breast in a sexual situation by the age of 14 and I'm sure many many of them have figured out what to do. What's wrong with them learning about the function of a breast to feed a child? Seems like a good learning opportunity.
Just out of curiosity, do you mean it could be awkward in the sense that the teenage boy could get an erection? Seriously. (Edit: I mean, that's a serious question.)
Oh hell no, it's just plain awkward. Like I said, it's hard to explain, and if you haven't been a teenage boy you don't know exactly what I'm talking about, because breastfeeding is a very unique thing, it's not really comparable to anything else. And no I don't think it's a 'good' learning experience at all. Of course as you mature it's something you get used to, but I think the adult in that particular scenario ought to show at least some respect. I think Jeanie hit the nail on the head when she said that having breastfed she's pretty blase about the issue now.
Ok, what I'm saying is that many people in this thread seem to be saying that breast feeding in public is ok "as long as" and then there are whatever expectations people feel are necessary in order for them to feel that a women is behaving appropriately. So I see people saying we don't object to the exposure of the breast so much as long as certain requirements are met in order to appease our sensibilities. What I wonder is, if you open your newspaper and there's a girl on page three with her breasts fully exposed purely for entertainment purposes what kind of requirements do people feel they need of the paper or the women topless in the paper in order for their sensibilities to be appeased and if they don't, why not? It just seems that many people would just open the paper, take a look and then move on to the sports section or the horoscope and not give it any more thought, why then is it different when we're talking about breastfeeding?
Society is a funny thing, full of hypocrisy. I also think you are kind of only showing part of the picture to illustrate your point. Both men's and women's bodies are objectified and used to sell products etc. You know if you go to Abercrombie & Fitch in London you are greeted on the door by two topless muscle-bound men! Now personally I think that is ridiculous, I don't need to be seeing that when I want to buy a pair of jeans or something.
Society is a funny thing, full of hypocrisy. I also think you are kind of only showing part of the picture to illustrate your point. Both men's and women's bodies are objectified and used to sell products etc. You know if you go to Abercrombie & Fitch in London you are greeted on the door by two topless muscle-bound men! Now personally I think that is ridiculous, I don't need to be seeing that when I want to buy a pair of jeans or something.
Agreed. But the same distinction can't be made for topless men on account they don't breast feed or believe me I'd have made it. There's not really an equivalent as far as I can see, women being the only ones that breast feed. The penis stuff doesn't really cover it accurately either.
I agree that both men and women are objectified and yeah, much as I don't have a problem with nudity I do have to wonder at some of the ridiculous ways in which the human body is presented in order to sell a product.
Well I suppose you could see it that way. I don't. I see it as someone doesn't agree with his action and therefore they are publicly calling him out on it and hoping to effect a change in attitude. Don't forget this person that the proprietor is imposing his will on is also a customer. I grew up in a time when the customer was always right and that a good customer was a repeat customer. If he's not going to value all his customers there will be consequences for that. A good business man would know that.
If you disagree with someone, do you always gather up people who agree with you and do you go and protest in front of their homes? I hope not. If so, I'm very glad we don't live close to each other
The proprietor is indeed imposing his will. Any good business man would do that. The customer never was always right, I'm sure a business owner would have kicked you out of his business if you walked in butt naked or started singing Celine Dion songs.
A business owner has to try and make every customer as comfortable as possible. He may think a breastfeeding mom is more comfortable in a private place, for example. He might have received ten complaints about the breast.
I think he has to take every one into consideration. It's a lot easier to ask a woman to go to the bathroom or a private room to feed her child than it is to put ten tables in the bathroom.
If you don't like the service a simple complaint will do.
What if Rosa Parkes had never got on the bus? What if MLK had never done what he did, said what he said? What if all the little people that were subjected to discrimination based on the flawed premise that they were less because of the colour of their skin had simply used discretion, taken on board that other people were embarrassed or uncomfortable seeing dark skinned people and they'd never stood up and fought for their basic human right? To be acknowledged as equal?
Like I said I don't think you can compare the two. Sure, I can draw parallels as well... I just don't think it's the same at all.
One reason I disagree with the comparison is the link comebackgirl provided. It say 39 states have laws with language specifically allowing women to breastfeed in any public or private location.
That means someone else's rights have been trampled on in favour for breast feeding moms.
I hardly think it's necessary to organise a march, a nurse-in or a protest whenever a business owner isn't aware of the law. A simple complaint, or even mentioning the law will do. If he wants you to leave simply say no. He'll call the police and they will tell him he's wrong.
No need to go protesting in front of his business.
Of course this isn't the only reason why I think the two things are not the same.
It's a flawed premise that the human female breast should not be seen in public because it is also viewed as a sexual organ.
Who says that's the reason people are uncomfortable with it?
The breast is designed in mammals for the function of feeding and the offspring of mammals require the sustenance of their mother's milk. It's their basic human right to be fed and it's the basic human right of their mothers to feed them. Hopefully if people keeping standing up there will never be qualification placed upon that act in the future. When a child needs to be fed it will be fed wherever that may be.
It's my basic right to eat as well. That doesn't mean I get to eat wherever I want, however. There are always restrictions. Always. I don't see why it would be any different for babies and breastfeeding moms.
Breastfeeding is not nudity.
I think it is and I think my opinion is as valid as yours.
I think at least 25 states (should read that site again) have already made sure breastfeeding doesn't constitute as nudity. But march on, Martin!
Just because only 39 states (the vast majority of them) specifically say store owners don't have a right to tell women to stop breastfeeding doesn't mean that the other 11 states say they do. I very seriously doubt that it would fly in any state. The only thing that flies is your argument about store owner's rights - right out the window.
Who said anything about telling women to stop breastfeeding?
Comments
Who said he was the father?
Touché!
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babies dont notice where you feed them .:)
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Well I suppose you could see it that way. I don't. I see it as someone doesn't agree with his action and therefore they are publicly calling him out on it and hoping to effect a change in attitude. Don't forget this person that the proprietor is imposing his will on is also a customer. I grew up in a time when the customer was always right and that a good customer was a repeat customer. If he's not going to value all his customers there will be consequences for that. A good business man would know that.
What if Rosa Parkes had never got on the bus? What if MLK had never done what he did, said what he said? What if all the little people that were subjected to discrimination based on the flawed premise that they were less because of the colour of their skin had simply used discretion, taken on board that other people were embarrassed or uncomfortable seeing dark skinned people and they'd never stood up and fought for their basic human right? To be acknowledged as equal? It's a flawed premise that the human female breast should not be seen in public because it is also viewed as a sexual organ. The breast is designed in mammals for the function of feeding and the offspring of mammals require the sustenance of their mother's milk. It's their basic human right to be fed and it's the basic human right of their mothers to feed them. Hopefully if people keeping standing up there will never be qualification placed upon that act in the future. When a child needs to be fed it will be fed wherever that may be.
Breastfeeding is not nudity.
I disagree. I thought we'd covered this with the penis a few posts back?
Sure he can say nudity is not allowed but again breast feeding is not nudity.
Ok.
But we're not talking about nudity, we're talking about breast feeding.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
you attack my children, you attack me. my children are the only people i would die for.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Because at the age of 14 you probably don't have enough life experience to understand such a situation. It's not one which you would likely have experienced before, and the element of "uh what do I do? what is appropriate here? am I supposed to leave the room" or something along those lines kind of comes to mind.
What can I say, I'm sorry Jeanie if you were exposed to such situations, but you have to admit it's hardly the norm for men to do that sort of thing in front of young girls. I would hope you would have had a parent you could have told if you were having men constantly exposing themselves and doing those things in front of you, but perhaps you didn't.
That doesn't really make sense, do I place a level of expectation of discretion on a picture of a woman topless in a newspaper, a picture which has already been taken? How can you expect a woman to show discretion in a picture which has already been taken?!
Yeah, fair enough. I can understand that, but as you've gotten older and probably been exposed to more breast feeding situations you come to be more "comfortable" or perhaps tolerant or accepting of it yes?
Being a teenager is horrifically embarrassing so much of the time isn't it?
Perhaps I am really blase about women breast feeding now because I've been exposed to so much of it, I really don't bat an eyelid when it goes on around me anymore, it's just another part of life.
Well it's not great and apparently it's not the norm, although I didn't know that at the time I guess. Just that I was mortified and more than a little scared. Timing wasn't great with the parents so years later I was able to tell them but not at the time. I only brought it up in the first place because I don't think, regardless of the exposure being not of the norm and highly innapropriate, it's not done any long term damage as far as I can see and now I guess I'm more than a little blase about nudity in general. I suppose to that end I don't really view breastfeeding as nudity, I see it more as a nurturing thing. Hence me not understanding the need to place "descretionary" guidelines on it. If that makes sense?
Ok, what I'm saying is that many people in this thread seem to be saying that breast feeding in public is ok "as long as" and then there are whatever expectations people feel are necessary in order for them to feel that a women is behaving appropriately. So I see people saying we don't object to the exposure of the breast so much as long as certain requirements are met in order to appease our sensibilities. What I wonder is, if you open your newspaper and there's a girl on page three with her breasts fully exposed purely for entertainment purposes what kind of requirements do people feel they need of the paper or the women topless in the paper in order for their sensibilities to be appeased and if they don't, why not? It just seems that many people would just open the paper, take a look and then move on to the sports section or the horoscope and not give it any more thought, why then is it different when we're talking about breastfeeding?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Jeez cate! And I thought you loved me!
I'd die for you! OOH!! A TOOL moment!!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
i do love you, you know that, but come on girlie you know me better than anyone here, my children are it.
though yeah id die for adam jones.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Just out of curiosity, do you mean it could be awkward in the sense that the teenage boy could get an erection? Seriously. (Edit: I mean, that's a serious question.)
Just because only 39 states (the vast majority of them) specifically say store owners don't have a right to tell women to stop breastfeeding doesn't mean that the other 11 states say they do. I very seriously doubt that it would fly in any state. The only thing that flies is your argument about store owner's rights - right out the window.
What she said.
Wait - isn't this like a chicken and egg situation? You shouldn't see a woman breastfeeding until you have already seen a woman breastfeeding? Seems like a wonderful educational opportunity to me.
want to know what i had experience of at age 14? i can tell you it was nothing as benign as breastfeeding thats for sure.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Oh hell no, it's just plain awkward. Like I said, it's hard to explain, and if you haven't been a teenage boy you don't know exactly what I'm talking about, because breastfeeding is a very unique thing, it's not really comparable to anything else. And no I don't think it's a 'good' learning experience at all. Of course as you mature it's something you get used to, but I think the adult in that particular scenario ought to show at least some respect. I think Jeanie hit the nail on the head when she said that having breastfed she's pretty blase about the issue now.
Society is a funny thing, full of hypocrisy. I also think you are kind of only showing part of the picture to illustrate your point. Both men's and women's bodies are objectified and used to sell products etc. You know if you go to Abercrombie & Fitch in London you are greeted on the door by two topless muscle-bound men! Now personally I think that is ridiculous, I don't need to be seeing that when I want to buy a pair of jeans or something.
Agreed.
I agree that both men and women are objectified and yeah, much as I don't have a problem with nudity I do have to wonder at some of the ridiculous ways in which the human body is presented in order to sell a product.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
If you disagree with someone, do you always gather up people who agree with you and do you go and protest in front of their homes? I hope not. If so, I'm very glad we don't live close to each other
The proprietor is indeed imposing his will. Any good business man would do that. The customer never was always right, I'm sure a business owner would have kicked you out of his business if you walked in butt naked or started singing Celine Dion songs.
A business owner has to try and make every customer as comfortable as possible. He may think a breastfeeding mom is more comfortable in a private place, for example. He might have received ten complaints about the breast.
I think he has to take every one into consideration. It's a lot easier to ask a woman to go to the bathroom or a private room to feed her child than it is to put ten tables in the bathroom.
If you don't like the service a simple complaint will do.
Like I said I don't think you can compare the two. Sure, I can draw parallels as well... I just don't think it's the same at all.
One reason I disagree with the comparison is the link comebackgirl provided. It say 39 states have laws with language specifically allowing women to breastfeed in any public or private location.
That means someone else's rights have been trampled on in favour for breast feeding moms.
I hardly think it's necessary to organise a march, a nurse-in or a protest whenever a business owner isn't aware of the law. A simple complaint, or even mentioning the law will do. If he wants you to leave simply say no. He'll call the police and they will tell him he's wrong.
No need to go protesting in front of his business.
Of course this isn't the only reason why I think the two things are not the same.
Who says that's the reason people are uncomfortable with it?
It's my basic right to eat as well. That doesn't mean I get to eat wherever I want, however. There are always restrictions. Always. I don't see why it would be any different for babies and breastfeeding moms.
I think it is and I think my opinion is as valid as yours.
I think at least 25 states (should read that site again) have already made sure breastfeeding doesn't constitute as nudity. But march on, Martin!
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Nope, it's not, it's the human thing to do.
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Who said anything about telling women to stop breastfeeding?
I wonder where our arguments are flying to, scb?
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