Acquaintance Rape

Heineken Helen

soulsinging wrote:

you are just about the ONLY person here who is stubbornly refusing to admit this sounds like a booty call. every american girl on here even thinks it sounds like it and is unsurprised that is how he saw it. but just to make sure, let me get this straight... you commonly call up guys you barely know late on lonely weekend nights and invite them over just to watch a movie alone with you?



jesus christ, has that liffy water made you brain dead? i have said it only matters depending on the situation. if you are saying he tried to rape or sexually harass her, no what she is wearing does not matter. that is wrong. if you are saying he is a bad person for thinking she invited him over for a booty call, then what she is wearing does matter in terms of how he got that impression. do you guys even know what a booty call is over there?

perhaps American being the operative word... I think I made the connection earlier that it seems to be the Americans who would make that assumption... it also seems to be Americans who can't understand being friends with the opposite gender.

If I don't agree with something I'm not gonna change my mind just cos I'm the only one thinking differently

prytocorduroy

iluvcats wrote:

I never knew that danny77(etc) was such a dirty man!

gosh...

Sex is fun. And perhaps you should move if you live next door to old men and young boys. Eye candy is fun too!

AstroFan

Heineken Helen wrote:

If I don't agree with something I'm not gonna change my mind just cos I'm the only one thinking differently

Isn't this (particular) arguement about the perception of others, though?

If people say that doing "A" will make people think "B," you can't say that is untrue just because it doesn't reflect your own intentions when doing "A". The entire concept is contingent on a 3rd party.

redrock

Heineken Helen wrote:

perhaps American being the operative word... I think I made the connection earlier that it seems to be the Americans who would make that assumption... it also seems to be Americans who can't understand being friends with the opposite gender.

I think it could be an american thing too. I have lots of american friends like I have lots of European friends and have lived in the US and in various european countries. They do think differently when it comes to the sexes, what the 'signals' (or lack thereof) can be and what friendship/hanging out with each other may be.

JordyWordy

Heineken Helen wrote:

can't understand being friends with the opposite gender.

If I don't agree with something I'm not gonna change my mind just cos I'm the only one thinking differently

thats fair if you dont wana change your mind, but their points are based on the fact that this girl didnt seem to know the guy, and in no way has she described him as what you or i would regard a "friend".

the point at this stage is that youre right regarding asking a FRIEND over, sure they are not going to automatically assume "SEX!"....but this girl didnt know him at all other than maybe a few exercise sessions or so....then look at it from the point of view of him recieving an invite over for a quiet nite in...Not nearly as likely to be night of actually watching movies, much more likely to be a booty call.

drivingrl

soulsinging wrote:

jesus you women... they are not judgments about her being a whore or having desires. they are questions about what REALLY happened. becos adding that old thread into the equation makes me suspect that it is quite possible this was less him pushing her ater she said no than it is a confused dude wondering what the hell this woman wants from him and a little bit frustrated at being lead on. have we all forgotten that 1) she was not raped and 2) she herself said he respected her decision?

tish wrote:

I'd say he did everything but rape me. He said I was asking for it by the way I was dressed. And if I wouldn't do this, would I do that? And since I wouldn't do that, would I do this?

Let's say he was confused. The question is: Does that make it alright for him to ask such questions? While we don't know exactly what happened, it's safe to say the discussion should have ended at "no." Even if he was asking these questions (after she said "no") in the most logical, non-skeezy tone - trying to figure out how tish thinks and what her motivations are - those questions are still being asked to make her feel uncomfortable and break down that balance of power.

And what I'm saying is, no one asks for that. No one does something consciously thinking, "You know, I'd bet someone is going to come up to me and try to exert his control over me and try to make me feel uncomfortable." That is brought upon someone.

redrock

JordyWordy wrote:

but their points are based on the fact that this girl didnt seem to know the guy,.

All assumptions made by a certain type of person. Same people making the assumption she wore indecent clothes (dressed to provoke, on purpose), etc.

AllNiteThing

Heineken Helen wrote:

it doesn't make a bit of difference if you know them or not! How many times do I have to say this... so unless I go down the muslim route of refusing to be alone with a man at ALL... there's just no point.

If you as a woman want to invite complete strangers over to your house to watch videos, then good luck is all I have to say. I'd recommend getting to know them a bit first, but that's just crazy ol' me.

JordyWordy

drivingrl wrote:

those questions are still being asked to make her feel uncomfortable and break down that balance of power.

And what I'm saying is, no one asks for that. No one does something consciously thinking, "You know, I'd bet someone is going to come up to me and try to exert his control over me and try to make me feel uncomfortable." That is brought upon someone.

id agree....and that can come about when you are in the situation that they two people are alone, which as pointed out by Helen and others earlier, can happen when youre out in a street or party etc, and even if you take great care....

am i following that? cos i didnt get the gist of that Balance of Power point earlier. is it just based on when the man and woman are alone and the man tries to exert himself or break her down?

AllNiteThing

comebackgirl wrote:

We're talking about 2 different things here. Yes - we need to take steps to keep ourselves safer - but you can do everything right - you can take every possible step to keep yourself safe and that doesn't mean you won't be a victim - and it doesn't mean that if you make some poor choices that being a victim is your fault. Of course the mugger doesn't give 2 shits - but that doesn't mean he doesn't need to bear the responsibility, or that the victim is to blame, and it doesn't mean biology caused him to steal a car. It's one thing to understand root causes, it doesn't mean we hold people less responsible for breaking laws or violating rights.

Nobody's said anything about not holding people responsible for their actions. Where have I said that or even implied that in the least? My point is that those things happen, so why put yourself in that situation that increases the risk of it happening? Regardless of the person who's at fault, you should have a good enough head on your shoulders to know what kind of situation you are putting yourself into and assessing risks. I feel like I'm speaking Greek or something, is it really that foreign an idea? Of course things happen when you least expect it. Of course a well known person can assault you. But of all the risks that are inherent in everyday life, WHY would you want to go around increasing those risks by doing stupid shit? It has nothing to do with holding the rest of the world responsible for things that happen, it's about holding ourselves responsible for our own choices and actions. I can have someone arrested for stealing my car in the ghetto, of course. But I'll also label myself an idiot for parking there and leaving it overnight.

JordyWordy

redrock wrote:

All assumptions made by a certain type of person. Same people making the assumption she wore indecent clothes (dressed to provoke, on purpose), etc.

ignore the clothes point for a second, because Tish has explicity said several times that she does not know this guy.

Helen however is thinking of this scenario with regards to a friend.

They are two fundementally different scenarios: One has a basis for trust, the other does not. One has a higher likelihood of being a booty call, the other has lower chance.

If a hot man in a suit walking down the street asked a woman to come over to his place later that nite for movies, would she assume he really wanted to watch a movie, or would she think, "he wants sex"?

i think that the basis that they did not know each other well means the clothes COULD have been indicative of sexual intentions, not necissarily that they were.

AllNiteThing

Heineken Helen wrote:

perhaps American being the operative word... I think I made the connection earlier that it seems to be the Americans who would make that assumption... it also seems to be Americans who can't understand being friends with the opposite gender.

No that's just women. Like I said before, I still can't get over how to this day women don't understand how men work. It's so simple. Women don't understand how men are into porn or look at other women, or can't be 'just friends' with a hot girl, etc etc. Enough with the cluelessness. Men are men. Always have been, always will be, not matter how much you think they are pigs. Deal with it or join a convent.

AllNiteThing

AstroFan wrote:

Isn't this (particular) arguement about the perception of others, though?

If people say that doing "A" will make people think "B," you can't say that is untrue just because it doesn't reflect your own intentions when doing "A". The entire concept is contingent on a 3rd party.

Exactly why I was saying inferring her own experience from this situation is a mistake and clouds reasoning on THIS particular situation.

drivingrl

JordyWordy wrote:

id agree....and that can come about when you are in the situation that they two people are alone, which as pointed out by Helen and others earlier, can happen when youre out in a street or party etc, and even if you take great care....

am i following that? cos i didnt get the gist of that Balance of Power point earlier. is it just based on when the man and woman are alone and the man tries to exert himself or break her down?

Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying. It can happen between any two people - a man and woman or a person and a child.

JordyWordy

drivingrl wrote:

Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying. It can happen between any two people - a man and woman or a person and a child.

right so.

The Champ

redrock wrote:

All assumptions made by a certain type of person. Same people making the assumption she wore indecent clothes (dressed to provoke, on purpose), etc.

It wasn't all that long ago that I was in college. When I girl (not a friend who happens to be a girl) invited me over to 'watch movies' alone in her dorm/apartment it meant that she liked me and wanted to find out where it would lead, i.e. friendship, fuck buddy etc. I never expected sex, but we both knew what the purpose of the meeting was, and it certainly wasn't about watching Harry fucking Potter...What she wore, really didn't make a difference to me at all. So yeah, not expecting anything, but I certainly brought condoms and trimmed the dick hair just in case ..

comebackwoman

AllNiteThing wrote:

Nobody's said anything about not holding people responsible for their actions. Where have I said that or even implied that in the least? My point is that those things happen, so why put yourself in that situation that increases the risk of it happening? Regardless of the person who's at fault, you should have a good enough head on your shoulders to know what kind of situation you are putting yourself into and assessing risks. I feel like I'm speaking Greek or something, is it really that foreign an idea? Of course things happen when you least expect it. Of course a well known person can assault you. But of all the risks that are inherent in everyday life, WHY would you want to go around increasing those risks by doing stupid shit? It has nothing to do with holding the rest of the world responsible for things that happen, it's about holding ourselves responsible for our own choices and actions. I can have someone arrested for stealing my car in the ghetto, of course. But I'll also label myself an idiot for parking there and leaving it overnight.

Ok - take a deep breath and re-read my post - I never said you implied anything, I'm not arguing with you. I was simply separating this out as 2 different issues:
1) take steps to increase your safety - that's good judgment
2) regardless of whether or not you take those steps, if you are a victim the responsibility rests solely with the perp. and you shouldn't be made to feel guilty that you didn't do everything in your power to keep someone else from violating you

That being said, we all do things that increase our risk. Using the pit as an example, many of us (myself included) have released personal information on a completely public forum - i.e. - pictures, real names, towns, dates of births - all of these things make us more vulnerable to crime. Yes - it's good taomake choices that will keep you safer, but some time, some way, some how we all slip up...whether that's revealing personal info on the net, parking in an unsafe spot, flirting with someone you don't know well on the pit, or inviting someone you don't know well to your apartment. We do these things without thinking sometimes. They increase our risk. We ALL do things that can increase our risk.

drivingrl

comebackgirl wrote:

2) regardless of whether or not you take those steps, if you are a victim the responsibility rests solely with the perp. and you shouldn't be made to feel guilty that you didn't do everything in your power to keep someone else from violating you

Well said.

AllNiteThing

comebackgirl wrote:

Ok - take a deep breath and re-read my post - I never said you implied anything, I'm not arguing with you. I was simply separating this out as 2 different issues:
1) take steps to increase your safety - that's good judgment
2) regardless of whether or not you take those steps, if you are a victim the responsibility rests solely with the perp. and you shouldn't be made to feel guilty that you didn't do everything in your power to keep someone else from violating you

That being said, we all do things that increase our risk. Using the pit as an example, many of us (myself included) have released personal information on a completely public forum - i.e. - pictures, real names, towns, dates of births - all of these things make us more vulnerable to crime. Yes - it's good taomake choices that will keep you safer, but some time, some way, some how we all slip up...whether that's revealing personal info on the net, parking in an unsafe spot, flirting with someone you don't know well on the pit, or inviting someone you don't know well to your apartment. We do these things without thinking sometimes. They increase our risk. We ALL do things that can increase our risk.

I'm completely calm my dear, just frustrated with lack of common sense (not from you) .

I actually think we are in near complete agreement, along with most people here. The crux of the disagreement/misunderstanding I believe is in your point #2. The OP states NO crime. I think the girls here are looking at this from a criminal aspect. I completely agree with your thoughts had this been a crime. But it wasn't, therefore you CAN place blame or criticize the actions of both parties in this situation. There was no assault, no rape and the guy left when asked to. It's NEVER ok for someone to act inappropriately or force someone into a situation they are uncomfortable with, but in situations like this a girl can be criticized for lack of judgement on what she could potentially be inviting into her home.

comebackwoman

AllNiteThing wrote:

I'm completely calm my dear, just frustrated with lack of common sense (not from you) .

I actually think we are in near complete agreement, along with most people here. The crux of the disagreement/misunderstanding I believe is in your point #2. The OP states NO crime. I think the girls here are looking at this from a criminal aspect. I completely agree with your thoughts had this been a crime. But it wasn't, therefore you CAN place blame or criticize the actions of both parties in this situation. There was no assault, no rape and the guy left when asked to. It's NEVER ok for someone to act inappropriately or force someone into a situation they are uncomfortable with, but in situations like this a girl can be criticized for lack of judgement on what she could potentially be inviting into her home.

She was fortunate and wasn't harmed - I agree - fortunately no assault. However, from what the OP stated he DIDN'T leave when requested - it took 15 minutes of him trying to persuade her to change her mind and for her to repeatedly ask him to leave. If someone repeatedly disregarded my "No" and tried to change my mind I would be frightened too - wondering how much ability I have to control the situation or protect myself at that point.