very true. The numbers I'm giving you are pre-tax.
even pretax, they are insane.
and believe me, i understnad jobs that generate a lot of income, etc...but really...it is ALL on our tipping culture, nothing more...and yes, i personally think it is out of hand. obviously, being on the receiving end makes it a far different story for you...but looking at it objectively, it truly makes zero sense. we arbitrarily decide what service industry jobs 'deserve' tips or not. sure, was initially based on no minimum wage...but why no minimumwage? arbitrary!
and as i said, YOU might decide to leave being a waitress, but there'd be plenty willing to fill your spot and others...jobs are always in demand. i think the 80s is when tipping really started to get out of hand, and also when percentages really started to shoot up. it's all interesting in any case.
with that, i do appreciate the work and would never want to do it. i've never done it..i far preferred retial work, and if the pay were better, i'd go back to it. as it is, i chose a career in education, and now work in accounting...so yea, i prefer the seadiness, and benefits. however, it's great that there are a myriad of choices career-wise...but none the less...there is nothing that would ever convince me that a waiter 'deserves' to make near/over 50K a year. some may...but i do not believe the work deserves it. i don't believe ANY unskilled workforce deserves that pay unless a truly dangerous or very undesirable job. c'est la vie.
well, I'm 31 and have been in this business since I was 15. I started as a busser (I was terrible) to a kitchen helper to dishwasher to cook to waitress at age 18 where I was promoted to service trainer within 6 months. It's my career. When you consider that I've invested over half my life to this line of work, making $55K a year is pretty shitty.
And it's been said there is no paid vaca or health insurance, but I love waiting tables and I really love the $$ I make doing it. It took a long time to get where I am today (which is the best, most expensive restaurant in town) and I can't think of anything I would rather be doing.
well, I'm 31 and have been in this business since I was 15. I started as a busser (I was terrible) to a kitchen helper to dishwasher to cook to waitress at age 18 where I was promoted to service trainer within 6 months. It's my career. When you consider that I've invested over half my life to this line of work, making $55K a year is pretty shitty.
And it's been said there is no paid vaca or health insurance, but I love waiting tables and I really love the $$ I make doing it. It took a long time to get where I am today (which is the best, most expensive restaurant in town) and I can't think of anything I would rather be doing.
i totally understand that. as i said, from your personal perspective as a waitress, it makes sense to think that way. looking objectively though, especially as an outsider, it does not.
beyond that. think of a teacher. bachelors degree AND a master's degree...6 years of higher education...and most make the same, or less, $$$ than you. does that seem 'right'....? sure, they get benefits...but if they choose accounting, or law...they'd make WAY more $$$, yet still highly educated. thus it's all what's a $$$ making field, etc. bottomline, there is just nothing that would ever convince me that a waiter, or a retail salesperson, etc...'deserves' that kind of pay since it requires zero education or specialized skill. obviously, i am well aware of how to be a better or great waiter or salesperson requires personality, some skills, etc...but none that cost you a dime or any personal time to learn. therein lies the difference.
of course, it's a choice.
so reading your posts just convinces me all the more =how our tipping culture is out of hand and should be abolished. not a personal affront to you, but sure...for others who actually want to eat out, not worry about providing income to waitstaff, to OTHER s in the service industries left out of tipping culture, etc. as i said, i loved working retail..the $$$ certainly wasn't enough to live on. did i expect that to change b/c i wanted it to? no, i went and got an education and persured careers that would pay me more. it's all choice. i don't 'expect' to get paid more in a field simply b/c i want it to..i realize i have to do more with myself to earn it. and sure, i get you've moved up...but many could spend just as much time in retail, work just as hard, and not make that $$$...all b/c of the arbitrary nature of tipping. but sure...no one ever said life was fair.
besides, i don't think most people expect to begin their 'career' at age 15, and move up and stay in the same job or field, and make crazy $$$. thus why most in the waitstaff profession are more transient, temporary employees.....only a few truly spend their lifetimes at it and make it a career, b/c for most....without all the benefits and $$$, it is not enough.
I agree with most of what Crazy Mary has to say. Granted I don't make the same $$$ as she but I live in PA not CA. Cost of living is not nearly as high here. Like her I love my job and have been in this business since I was 18. 17 of those 23 years I spent in mgmt however and always wanted to go back to serving. I wanted to make money for myself not some corporation who could give a shit less about me. And if I want to babysit children I will have one of my own. As far as benefits and paid vacations I have both. No 401k but that is my choice. Those of you who say this job is easy I challenge to do what I do for 1 week and see how easy it is. I have seen plenty of "smart" people not be successful at serving because it takes common sense...something that is severely lacking in our world today. I would take this job over any 9-5 sitting on my ass job any day!
PJ FANS ROCK!!!
Finally got that "One for the Thumb"!!! Got the "Six Pack". Now we're on a "Stairway to Seven"
Some words when spoken...can't be taken back.
"Seeing a brick wall straight ahead and stepping on the gas." Eddie...Pittsburgh 6/23/06
An article on MSN.com has prompted me to ask my fellow PJ fans their opinion. I have 2 questions:
1) When you call in a to-go order to a restaruant and go there to pick it up.......are you required to tip the person who rings you up and hands you the box of food?
2) If I order a Budweiser from a bartender, they crack the top open for me and hand me my bottle....why should I tip them? Bartenders make more than the $2.13 per hour a waitress makes.
I feel that the checkout person at the grocery store gave me more personal attention and provided me more of a service than my bartender....yet we don't tip the grocery store employee.
Don't have time to read this whole thread...but I'll pitch on the first post....
1) HELL no. That's my pet peeve. Some pick up places have the tip option in their debit machines ...it pisses me off because it makes me uncomfortable. I would feel cheap tipping less than 15% (I will tip even a bad waitress 15%), but there is no way I'm giving you 15% for 10 seconds work. In fact, I'm not giving you anything for 10 seconds work.
2) I tip bartenders to get better service. It's usually the only way to get a drink in a busy place....they remember you.
nah i meant the drummer guy from the band Garbage... Butch Vig? he should be tipped a lot more than he is... he provides a service doesnt he?
i should just say binman shouldnt i? thats what they are called here right enough... not my fault if someone doesnt know what it means... so thanks Joejoejoe... you are correct
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
Those of you who say this job is easy I challenge to do what I do for 1 week and see how easy it is.
it is easy... ok it might get hectic, it might taek common sense, but it is easy.
if i did it for a week, i might screw up 4 or 5 times but i'd eventually get the hang of it.
if you did my job for a week, you'd need to learn a whole new skillset and by the end of that week you might manage to do one of my daily tasks... might...
so, yes, i think waiting a table is easy.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
it's like look at the stupid rich westerners with money to burn, who do they think they are?
thats what i think of people who say they tip a barman to get better service as they remember you and so they'll serve you quicker... if i was in that bar and waited for a while and then some money-waving fatcat came up behind me and got served before me i'd go loco....
it just seems a very 80s thing to do... waving notes at barmen just to get served quicker... "here buddy, thats for yourself"... barman in scotland would take that money and think you were an idiot and still not serve you any quicker...
mmmmmm greed is good.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
thanks for the info...interesting!
so basically with the exchange rate, just about $11.50-$12 an hour. i think i overcalculated for the euro conversion earlier...so really, very similar for the UK and ireland, anyway. definitely more than our minimum wage, but on par with retail pay and other service-type jobs. sounds about right.
bottomline, minimum wage should be just that; the minimum wage to pay. there should be NO exclusions whatsoever.
Yep, I think the minimum wage in Ireland at the mo is 8euro something. It's definitely enough to feed a family with cos I know plenty of people who do... and like Jen said, tipping IS done here... some nights you can make a bomb, other nights about 2.50 but you just expect the minimum wage.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I agree with most of what Crazy Mary has to say. Granted I don't make the same $$$ as she but I live in PA not CA. Cost of living is not nearly as high here. Like her I love my job and have been in this business since I was 18. 17 of those 23 years I spent in mgmt however and always wanted to go back to serving. I wanted to make money for myself not some corporation who could give a shit less about me. And if I want to babysit children I will have one of my own. As far as benefits and paid vacations I have both. No 401k but that is my choice. Those of you who say this job is easy I challenge to do what I do for 1 week and see how easy it is. I have seen plenty of "smart" people not be successful at serving because it takes common sense...something that is severely lacking in our world today. I would take this job over any 9-5 sitting on my ass job any day!
I've DONE waitressing. It WAS easy... not nice but easy! I didn't enjoy it.... but you and Mary do... that's the choice you made. I LOVED bar work on the other hand... it was a piece of piss... and fun
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I agree with most of what Crazy Mary has to say. Granted I don't make the same $$$ as she but I live in PA not CA. Cost of living is not nearly as high here. Like her I love my job and have been in this business since I was 18. 17 of those 23 years I spent in mgmt however and always wanted to go back to serving. I wanted to make money for myself not some corporation who could give a shit less about me. And if I want to babysit children I will have one of my own. As far as benefits and paid vacations I have both. No 401k but that is my choice. Those of you who say this job is easy I challenge to do what I do for 1 week and see how easy it is. I have seen plenty of "smart" people not be successful at serving because it takes common sense...something that is severely lacking in our world today. I would take this job over any 9-5 sitting on my ass job any day!
awesome for you - truly! it's great to enjoy your work and make decent $$$.
point is, waitstaff being exempt from minimum wage requirements and relying on tips is a completely arbitrary and an unwarranted distinction from other, similar, service industry jobs. that's the only point. the fact that you DO get paid vacations and sick leave.....even better, and rare, for waitstaff.....
and if one would be unhappy with the wages if they were changed, it would be the same as any other field.....find a different job. as i said, i greatly enjoyed working retail when i did, but i knew it was not a career to make $$$ unless you wanted to move into management. i do not see why a waitress should make more more b/c they are tipped instead of paid a flat wage sans tips.....it is not more difficult a job nor requiring any additional education/specialized skills than working retail sales. that is all.
anyhoo...you've got your job with tips and more than likely not changing anytime soon, if ever. however, if some of us want to point out the arbitrary nature and sure, unfairness of waitstaff being a tipped industry, tips 'expected' etc.....it's certainly our right to do so. obviously you can and do disagree....but it's still the truth.
what is considered an unskilled profession - meaning no educational or specialized skills required to enter it - that is neither dangerous nor undesirable - and making over 50K a year when other similar unskilled professions do not, and yet still earn their companies a lot......or skilled workers with educations and specialized skills making the same, or less....it just doesn't make sense. and that is because tipping culture has gotten out of hand. lucky for waitstaff, but ridiculous from an objective pov. that's all.
to think that a waitress and a teacher, for example...should be paid the same $$$ is quite honestly....daft. just one of many illustrations of how tipping has gone far beyond it's initial intention. and hey, if i were a waitress, i too would like to see the status quo remain....which pretty much answers the Q that foreigner's ask why they don't simply get paid a decent wage....b/c they don't want one, most would prefer tips b/c it ends up being far more $$$.
that is all!
anyhoo...if this thread proves nothing else, i will never take to heart cries of not making enough $$$ or the lack of funds, benefits, whathaveyou...from waitstaff. waitstaff are probably the most 'overpaid' workers within the unskilled labor pool due to our tipping culture.
*late edit:
just to be clear...i tip! and i tip well, especially when well-deserved. and here in NY, where our servers DON'T make $9 an hour + their tips, i think it's deserved overall - although my analogy of earning dcent wages, comparisons to other related, non-tipped workers, etc...stands as is.. i just dislike the 'expectation' and seemingly some almost 'demands' or insults to patrons if a waiter/waitress feels they weren't tipped properly that i read in this thread. i also know most waitstaff do NOT make $50K + a year, and sure.....have to get their own heath benefits, vacations, retirement, no real perquisites, etc....don't work full-time, don't always get the premium shifts, etc...all which impact their earning potential. all my posts are an *objective* view of the tipping culture, and not meant as an insult to waitpersons, at all.
Dwight Schrute: Why tip someone for a job I'm capable of doing myself? I can deliver food. I can drive a taxi. I can, and do, cut my own hair. I did however, tip my urologist, because I am unable to pulverize my own kidney stones.
This is the greatest band in the world -- Ben Harper
Dwight Schrute: Why tip someone for a job I'm capable of doing myself? I can deliver food. I can drive a taxi. I can, and do, cut my own hair. I did however, tip my urologist, because I am unable to pulverize my own kidney stones.
stealing that for my sig thank you very much!!!!!
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
nah i meant the drummer guy from the band Garbage... Butch Vig? he should be tipped a lot more than he is... he provides a service doesnt he?
i should just say binman shouldnt i? thats what they are called here right enough... not my fault if someone doesnt know what it means... so thanks Joejoejoe... you are correct
I agree...no need to dumb it down for us Yanks!
I have seen Garbage perform many times, and Butch never accepts tips, but Shirley always has a tip cup at the edge of the stage. Seems like every bloke always wants to give her a pound or two!
giving credit sounds too much like giving a tip... so i'll pass
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
An article on MSN.com has prompted me to ask my fellow PJ fans their opinion. I have 2 questions:
1) When you call in a to-go order to a restaruant and go there to pick it up.......are you required to tip the person who rings you up and hands you the box of food?
2) If I order a Budweiser from a bartender, they crack the top open for me and hand me my bottle....why should I tip them? Bartenders make more than the $2.13 per hour a waitress makes.
I feel that the checkout person at the grocery store gave me more personal attention and provided me more of a service than my bartender....yet we don't tip the grocery store employee.
1) If they pull out all the containers and show me all the dishes first hand in which I ordered and if they give me some bread and butter as if I had dined in-house and lastly if they give me paper plates and such. Then I gave a 10% tip...
2) I tip a dollar a drink at a bar... If I want to drink cheap than I will stay at home with a six pack...
2000-10-28 San Bernardino
2003-06-02 Irvine
2003-10-26 Mountain View-Bridge School
2006-07-09 Los Angeles
2006-07-10 Los Angeles
2006-10-22 Mountain View- Bridge School
2008-07-19 UCLA-Who Rock Honors
2009-10-1 Los Angeles-2
2009-10-9 San Diego
thanks... you've just added weight to my whole anti-tipping campaign... in fact, when i'm there next year, i'll take my 17% of any meal i might have tipped and give it to someone more needful... like a cleaner or a garbage man or something
for your cause, dunk... the average nurses' wage works out to 21.50 an hour.
now, i'd like to think that a nurse putting your IV in properly is a little more crucial than a waitress putting the right amount of ice in your drink.
$37 an hour is pretty good wage if you ask me, and no student loans to pay back either...
Comments
even pretax, they are insane.
and believe me, i understnad jobs that generate a lot of income, etc...but really...it is ALL on our tipping culture, nothing more...and yes, i personally think it is out of hand. obviously, being on the receiving end makes it a far different story for you...but looking at it objectively, it truly makes zero sense. we arbitrarily decide what service industry jobs 'deserve' tips or not. sure, was initially based on no minimum wage...but why no minimumwage? arbitrary!
and as i said, YOU might decide to leave being a waitress, but there'd be plenty willing to fill your spot and others...jobs are always in demand. i think the 80s is when tipping really started to get out of hand, and also when percentages really started to shoot up. it's all interesting in any case.
with that, i do appreciate the work and would never want to do it. i've never done it..i far preferred retial work, and if the pay were better, i'd go back to it. as it is, i chose a career in education, and now work in accounting...so yea, i prefer the seadiness, and benefits. however, it's great that there are a myriad of choices career-wise...but none the less...there is nothing that would ever convince me that a waiter 'deserves' to make near/over 50K a year. some may...but i do not believe the work deserves it. i don't believe ANY unskilled workforce deserves that pay unless a truly dangerous or very undesirable job. c'est la vie.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
And it's been said there is no paid vaca or health insurance, but I love waiting tables and I really love the $$ I make doing it. It took a long time to get where I am today (which is the best, most expensive restaurant in town) and I can't think of anything I would rather be doing.
i totally understand that. as i said, from your personal perspective as a waitress, it makes sense to think that way. looking objectively though, especially as an outsider, it does not.
beyond that. think of a teacher. bachelors degree AND a master's degree...6 years of higher education...and most make the same, or less, $$$ than you. does that seem 'right'....? sure, they get benefits...but if they choose accounting, or law...they'd make WAY more $$$, yet still highly educated. thus it's all what's a $$$ making field, etc. bottomline, there is just nothing that would ever convince me that a waiter, or a retail salesperson, etc...'deserves' that kind of pay since it requires zero education or specialized skill. obviously, i am well aware of how to be a better or great waiter or salesperson requires personality, some skills, etc...but none that cost you a dime or any personal time to learn. therein lies the difference.
of course, it's a choice.
so reading your posts just convinces me all the more =how our tipping culture is out of hand and should be abolished. not a personal affront to you, but sure...for others who actually want to eat out, not worry about providing income to waitstaff, to OTHER s in the service industries left out of tipping culture, etc. as i said, i loved working retail..the $$$ certainly wasn't enough to live on. did i expect that to change b/c i wanted it to? no, i went and got an education and persured careers that would pay me more. it's all choice. i don't 'expect' to get paid more in a field simply b/c i want it to..i realize i have to do more with myself to earn it. and sure, i get you've moved up...but many could spend just as much time in retail, work just as hard, and not make that $$$...all b/c of the arbitrary nature of tipping. but sure...no one ever said life was fair.
besides, i don't think most people expect to begin their 'career' at age 15, and move up and stay in the same job or field, and make crazy $$$. thus why most in the waitstaff profession are more transient, temporary employees.....only a few truly spend their lifetimes at it and make it a career, b/c for most....without all the benefits and $$$, it is not enough.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Finally got that "One for the Thumb"!!! Got the "Six Pack". Now we're on a "Stairway to Seven"
Some words when spoken...can't be taken back.
"Seeing a brick wall straight ahead and stepping on the gas." Eddie...Pittsburgh 6/23/06
Don't have time to read this whole thread...but I'll pitch on the first post....
1) HELL no. That's my pet peeve. Some pick up places have the tip option in their debit machines ...it pisses me off because it makes me uncomfortable. I would feel cheap tipping less than 15% (I will tip even a bad waitress 15%), but there is no way I'm giving you 15% for 10 seconds work. In fact, I'm not giving you anything for 10 seconds work.
2) I tip bartenders to get better service. It's usually the only way to get a drink in a busy place....they remember you.
nah i meant the drummer guy from the band Garbage... Butch Vig? he should be tipped a lot more than he is... he provides a service doesnt he?
i should just say binman shouldnt i? thats what they are called here right enough... not my fault if someone doesnt know what it means... so thanks Joejoejoe... you are correct
it is easy... ok it might get hectic, it might taek common sense, but it is easy.
if i did it for a week, i might screw up 4 or 5 times but i'd eventually get the hang of it.
if you did my job for a week, you'd need to learn a whole new skillset and by the end of that week you might manage to do one of my daily tasks... might...
so, yes, i think waiting a table is easy.
thats what i think of people who say they tip a barman to get better service as they remember you and so they'll serve you quicker... if i was in that bar and waited for a while and then some money-waving fatcat came up behind me and got served before me i'd go loco....
it just seems a very 80s thing to do... waving notes at barmen just to get served quicker... "here buddy, thats for yourself"... barman in scotland would take that money and think you were an idiot and still not serve you any quicker...
mmmmmm greed is good.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
awesome for you - truly! it's great to enjoy your work and make decent $$$.
point is, waitstaff being exempt from minimum wage requirements and relying on tips is a completely arbitrary and an unwarranted distinction from other, similar, service industry jobs. that's the only point. the fact that you DO get paid vacations and sick leave.....even better, and rare, for waitstaff.....
and if one would be unhappy with the wages if they were changed, it would be the same as any other field.....find a different job. as i said, i greatly enjoyed working retail when i did, but i knew it was not a career to make $$$ unless you wanted to move into management. i do not see why a waitress should make more more b/c they are tipped instead of paid a flat wage sans tips.....it is not more difficult a job nor requiring any additional education/specialized skills than working retail sales. that is all.
anyhoo...you've got your job with tips and more than likely not changing anytime soon, if ever. however, if some of us want to point out the arbitrary nature and sure, unfairness of waitstaff being a tipped industry, tips 'expected' etc.....it's certainly our right to do so. obviously you can and do disagree....but it's still the truth.
what is considered an unskilled profession - meaning no educational or specialized skills required to enter it - that is neither dangerous nor undesirable - and making over 50K a year when other similar unskilled professions do not, and yet still earn their companies a lot......or skilled workers with educations and specialized skills making the same, or less....it just doesn't make sense. and that is because tipping culture has gotten out of hand. lucky for waitstaff, but ridiculous from an objective pov. that's all.
to think that a waitress and a teacher, for example...should be paid the same $$$ is quite honestly....daft.
that is all!
anyhoo...if this thread proves nothing else, i will never take to heart cries of not making enough $$$ or the lack of funds, benefits, whathaveyou...from waitstaff. waitstaff are probably the most 'overpaid' workers within the unskilled labor pool due to our tipping culture.
*late edit:
just to be clear...i tip!
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
stealing that for my sig thank you very much!!!!!
I agree...no need to dumb it down for us Yanks!
I have seen Garbage perform many times, and Butch never accepts tips, but Shirley always has a tip cup at the edge of the stage. Seems like every bloke always wants to give her a pound or two!
giving credit sounds too much like giving a tip... so i'll pass
1) If they pull out all the containers and show me all the dishes first hand in which I ordered and if they give me some bread and butter as if I had dined in-house and lastly if they give me paper plates and such. Then I gave a 10% tip...
2) I tip a dollar a drink at a bar... If I want to drink cheap than I will stay at home with a six pack...
2003-06-02 Irvine
2003-10-26 Mountain View-Bridge School
2006-07-09 Los Angeles
2006-07-10 Los Angeles
2006-10-22 Mountain View- Bridge School
2008-07-19 UCLA-Who Rock Honors
2009-10-1 Los Angeles-2
2009-10-9 San Diego
now, i'd like to think that a nurse putting your IV in properly is a little more crucial than a waitress putting the right amount of ice in your drink.
$37 an hour is pretty good wage if you ask me, and no student loans to pay back either...