Prostitution

ottje

legal, it's one of the original jobs up their with Farmer & Hunter, in my opinion

Sweet Emotion

angelica wrote:

You are talking about something very different than I am. While you are talking about judgment, I am talking about cause and effect. Everything on earth is ruled by cause and effect. For each cause, we receive an effect. If you can show me something on our planet outside of the law of cause and effect, I'd love to see it.

In the meantime, psychology has for 100 years been and continues to study the causes and effects of humans and their behaviours. In terms of repressing and denying one's emotions, the consequences are widely acknowledged across the wide board of psychology as creating unhealthy effects in humans. and on the flip-side, it's also widely acknowledged how healthy and empowering it is to acknowledge, own and integrate one's emotions. As a matter of fact, doing so is considered to be "emotionally intelligent". Emotional intelligence is considered a key factor in success. Displaying emotional intelligence is the opposite of tuning out and denying one's emotions. Even Darwin, himself, believed in the importance of emotional expression for evolutionary adaptation and survival!

It's clear that those who are not heeding evolutionary responses--such as their emotions which have evolved for a reason--receive negative effects. That is why the concept of "dehumanizing" or "objectifying" one's self has a negative connotation....it's not a neutral or positive thing.

You are talking about something different than you are each time you post.
It's crazy. I address your replies and you go on some tangent. I don't think you even know what you are talking about any longer given the circles you've criss crossed and the amount of cloud you've managed to muddy the water. Hey, and to all you prostitutes out there, I sincerely wish you all a very happy holiday.

unifiedscene

Sweet Emotion wrote:

You'd go to China to pay to get laid??

In this economy? Americans are cheaper.

As to angelica's style, you get used to it... never a straight answer!

angelica

Sweet Emotion wrote:

You are talking about something different than you are each time you post.
It's crazy. I address your replies and you go on some tangent. I don't think you even know what you are talking about any longer given the circles you've criss crossed and the amount of cloud you've managed to muddy the water. Hey, and to all you prostitutes out there, I sincerely wish you all a very happy holiday.

Let me know when you've got a valid dispute of the subject matter.

Sweet Emotion

angelica wrote:

Let me know when you've got a valid dispute of the subject matter.

I've got no "dispute of the subject matter". I'm very clear on it. And clarity is a beautiful thing.

writersu

Collin wrote:

Again, it's not like that here. If I take a girl out to dinner, it's either as a friend or girlfriend. Generally we pay seperately, as a matter of fact, I remember a few times that I wanted to pay everything and the girl simply laughed and said: 'don't be silly' and refused to let me pay the whole dinner. That's fairly normal around here, at least with all of the people I know and hang out with. We don't have the whole dating thing here. There's no process in which you sort of buy the girl - which the girl seems to expect anyway - with meals and drinks. That's your country, not mine. We don't go on dates.

Either way, stop putting women in such a victim role and men in such a bad light. Seriously, if this is the reality in the US, then yet again I sigh in relief.

Or could it be that your post is not objective at all and you're just trying to put men in a bad light.

I truly apologize Colin, truly. I am not sure if you and I have crossed paths on any of the threads that I have been on regarding men and love but I have said before that I do not mean to put all of you in the same pile; admittedly I do not know any men who are of merit to their gender. That said, I do not think that they speak for all men; there have to be good men out there as well.
And as for victims, there are no victims in life in terms of what we are speaking of; only those who wish to act as such. I have been there, thinking that that is what a woman should be like in order to be loved. But that is not it at all, and in hindsight, (perfect vision they say, right?) I see I was sorely mistaken. But that is attributed to my growth and it is timed as it should I imagine.

There are many men here who are very evolved and fair in relationships it seems, and that is impressive as well as proven to put my opinions in a different light.

Thanks for that guys, really.

writersu

Sweet Emotion wrote:

Prostitution is neither illegal nor morally objectionable because it objectifies women. I think that is a 20th century convention. Or maybe we could pin that on Freud, who knows.
If you go back through history prostitution is a story of women not of men. You have to know what their reasons or goals were. The Sacred Whore, a powerful, respected, confident woman, a priestess.
The courtesan, a woman who was often not a prostitute, but well taken care of, so that she might live a life of leisure without having to marry.
Today, I think the arrangement is still, more often than not, a very mutually beneficent business deal. Working women are out there because they need to pay their rents, eat, take care of their kids, just like anyone else. They are using the most base of any of the skills or talents they might possess but it is the choice they have made. And it is them who have decided to wander about scantily clad. I would say that if anything, it has been the women themselves that have done all the objectifying. The men aren't guilty of anything just because there is no emotional attachment to the act or to the person involved.
Prostitution was outlawed because it ultimately empowered women.

Wow, excellent post. I agree with all of you who have commented on this post. I think back of when I was younger and I think so many of the young women I knew as well as myself at times were foolish to not work sex to our advantage. It is a powerful place to be in as long as you are secure enough to not get into the trick bag of listening to guys who are basically jerks who try to pin a woman into a frame of thinking she is a whore, a scum, for having sex with them to begin with.

Again, my experience of small minded men. Not all men..........

catefrances

angelica wrote:

...
It's clear that those who are not heeding evolutionary responses--such as their emotions which have evolved for a reason--receive negative effects. That is why the concept of "dehumanizing" or "objectifying" one's self has a negative connotation....it's not a neutral or positive thing.

can you explain this to me? in what way should we heed our emotional responses?

angelica

catefrances wrote:

can you explain this to me? in what way should we heed our emotional responses?

By acknowledging the messages we get from our emotions. Our limbic system, or our emotional brain developed evolutionarily for a reason, through adaptation, beyond the reptilian level of our brain. Our emotional signals are the only direct response we receive telling us how the environment is affecting us in each moment. Are we feeling happy in response to our life circumstances? Joyous? Are we experiencing anger? Sadness? Each emotion, when heard, carries a specific message informing us. To tune that out is to tune out crucial feedback on how to adapt in each moment.

Each individual, upon acknowledging their emotions, are well equipped to interpret what such emotions mean to them personally. They can then create their actions in response to the inner signals. They can further figure out if the external consequences are working for them, or not, and further adapt, in tune to all the variables in each situation.

catefrances

angelica wrote:

By acknowledging the messages we get from our emotions. Our limbic system, or our emotional brain developed evolutionarily for a reason, through adaptation, beyond the reptilian level of our brain. Our emotional signals are the only direct response we receive telling us how the environment is affecting us in each moment. Are we feeling happy in response to our life circumstances? Joyous? Are we experiencing anger? Sadness? Each emotion, when heard, carries a specific message informing us. To tune that out is to tune out crucial feedback on how to adapt in each moment.

Each individual, upon acknowledging their emotions, are well equipped to interpret what such emotions mean to them personally. They can then create their actions in response to the inner signals. They can further figure out if the external consequences are working for them, or not, and further adapt, in tune to all the variables in each situation.

so are you saying we should, having taken all the variables into consideration, adapt our responses despite what our base instinct reaction is?

Sweet Emotion

angelica wrote:

By acknowledging the messages we get from our emotions. Our limbic system, or our emotional brain developed evolutionarily for a reason, through adaptation, beyond the reptilian level of our brain. Our emotional signals are the only direct response we receive telling us how the environment is affecting us in each moment. Are we feeling happy in response to our life circumstances? Joyous? Are we experiencing anger? Sadness? Each emotion, when heard, carries a specific message informing us. To tune that out is to tune out crucial feedback on how to adapt in each moment.

Each individual, upon acknowledging their emotions, are well equipped to interpret what such emotions mean to them personally. They can then create their actions in response to the inner signals. They can further figure out if the external consequences are working for them, or not, and further adapt, in tune to all the variables in each situation.

This is just a shot in the dark but.....Are you Sarah Palin?

angelica

catefrances wrote:

so are you saying we should, having taken all the variables into consideration, adapt our responses despite what our base instinct reaction is?

What I'm saying is to take all the variables of our lives into consideration, and to do what it takes to find outcomes we are satisfied with. I am saying that tuning out our emotional feedback is a grave error, and actually creates more conflict in our lives. Even though on the surface we deny and ignore (ignorance), the underlying conflicts grow and perpetuate, rather than get resolved. Doing so ALWAYS creates obviously painful consequences that we have to work VERY hard to ignore. We have to be very diligent in order to squelch our inner voice and the negative fallout is always a very loud alarm bell telling us that we are maladapting.

Any small improvement shows we are on the right track. Progress shows we are on the right track. Solving problems shows we are on the right track.

catefrances

angelica wrote:

What I'm saying is to take all the variables of our lives into consideration, and to do what it takes to find outcomes we are satisfied with. I am saying that tuning out our emotional feedback is a grave error, and actually creates more conflict in our lives. Even though on the surface we deny and ignore (ignorance), the underlying conflicts grow and perpetuate, rather than get resolved. Doing so ALWAYS creates obviously painful consequences that we have to work VERY hard to ignore. We have to be very diligent in order to squelch our inner voice and the negative fallout is always a very loud alarm bell telling us that we are maladapting.

Any small improvement shows we are on the right track. Progress shows we are on the right track. Solving problems shows we are on the right track.

im just gonna take that as a yes response to my question.

Sweet Emotion

catefrances wrote:

im just gonna take that as a yes response to my question.

Me too.

angelica

catefrances wrote:

im just gonna take that as a yes response to my question.

When we take all the variables into consideration, we are being conscious and therefore can genuinely respond to our lives. Some might call this being awake. Rather than being reactive, and operating based on conditioning.

angelica

on the other hand...some people...in doing what works for them, might want to follow base instinct. It's not up to me to say what we "should" do. I'm merely pointing out options, and supporting people trusting their own selves, and their own personal interpretations. if we are adapting, we'll always find room for improvement.

catefrances

angelica wrote:

on the other hand...some people...in doing what works for them, might want to follow base instinct. It's not up to me to say what we "should" do. I'm merely pointing out options, and supporting people trusting their own selves, and their own personal interpretations. if we are adapting, we'll always find room for improvement.

well see theres the thing. i do not see there is room for improvement in regards to myself and the way i react. i am me and thats all there is to it. there is a cause and there is my reaction. and because it is my reaction, it is always right. for me. over the years i have learnt how incapacitating it can be for me to not react. and so without regard for the consequences i will react. however in doing so i am aware there may be consequences and so choose to always own my behaviour.

angelica

catefrances wrote:

well see theres the thing. i do not see there is room for improvement in regards to myself and the way i react. i am me and thats all there is to it. there is a cause and there is my reaction. and because it is my reaction, it is always right. for me. over the years i have learnt how incapacitating it can be for me to not react. and so without regard for the consequences i will react. however in doing so i am aware there may be consequences and so choose to always own my behaviour.

Whatever works best for you is, of course, always the way to go. To me that is always the bottom line.

Heineken Helen

saveuplife wrote:

I have a tough time answering this. I absolutely lean towards legal at first because I don't think the government should be interfering here and because they can't really stop it so resources should not be wated. However, I've been to Amsterdam and I do have to say it's very disgusting/depressing in the red light district. The plus of having it illegal is that it doesn't get promoted the way it does in Amsterdam.

I'll be honest, this is one issue where I just can't make up my mind. I can see the pluses and minuses of both sides.

I suppose if I had to say, I'd go legal with a large large degree of hesitation.

Agreed! to be honest I think it's disgusting! I found Amsterdam to be mind boggling... and certainly not in a good way! However, I'm lucky that I've never been in a position where my only way to make money was by selling myself. I feel sorry for the girls who have to do this.

moegossard

I'm a public defender. I've represented a lot of prostitutes and it's just a cycle. They get picked up, fail to appear in court for their charge, end up spending a few days, maybe a few weeks in jail, get a time served plea and end up back in the streets. Most of them have drug problems and come from extremely sad and difficult backgrounds. These are abused and neglected women. It's sad. Making prostitution doesn't deter it. I don't think criminalizing it helps these women at all.

Heineken Helen

VictoryGin wrote:

hey maybe it will be stamped out when our patriarchal culture stops objectifying women.

doubtful... unfortunately women do that too :(

Heineken Helen

unifiedscene wrote:

That's my thinking. Wouldn't legalization reduce the number forced onto the streets or craigslist for this? Say what you will about how gross the red light district in Amsterdam is (I personally loved it, hehe), it sure seemed to keep things concentrated and contained. The rest of the city was very nice.

well Conor, I'm not surprised you loved it

Heineken Helen

Saturnal wrote:

It's not silly at all. Haven't you ever been so mad at someone, you wanted to kill them? That's biological instinct too, but we don't say it's silly to restrain ourselves because it's wrong to kill. Haven't you ever been in an intimate situation that you wanted to take all the way, but your partner didn't? That's biological too, but we don't say it's silly not to rape.

I'm not saying objectification compares to murder and rape, but the argument that "it's biological so that makes it ok" doesn't really hold up for me.

so basically what I've learned from this thread is that you're not oppressed unless you live in Iran... and that prostitution is morally the same as seeing a cute guy and thinking 'yip, I WOULD'

:eek: *shakes head* WOW!

Heineken Helen

unifiedscene wrote:

So when can I come visit?

Sick!!!!

Whatever's been said about female prostitutes... I personally think that the men who 'use this service' are disgusting. I saw how different the men were in the red light district in Amsterdam... going on about who and what they did. It was disgusting. I wouldn't even have a conversation with a guy who I know has shagged a prostitute.

unifiedscene

Heineken Helen wrote:

Sick!!!!

Whatever's been said about female prostitutes... I personally think that the men who 'use this service' are disgusting. I saw how different the men were in the red light district in Amsterdam... going on about who and what they did. It was disgusting. I wouldn't even have a conversation with a guy who I know has shagged a prostitute.

Promise?

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

...I wouldn't even have a conversation with a guy who I know has shagged a prostitute.

but why not? surely you cant claim to know the circumstances involved and thus draw your conclusions from such an uninformed place.

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

but why not? surely you cant claim to know the circumstances involved and thus draw your conclusions from such an uninformed place.

Yip I can . This one act would disgust me so much. I'm pretty sure there are guys I know who HAVE done... but I'd rather not know to be honest.

mostdefiled

don't worry, at least I've got a different rational than most... the vast majority of prostitutes are child sexual abuse survivors. Child sexual abuse causes lots and lots long-term issues, including lots of problems that add up to chronic poverty, unemployability, and boundry issues that make the act of selling one's self for money a lot easier than it is for most. Going through the necessary steps in the recovery process allow survivors to establish normal boundries and make prostitution much harder to practice. As long as prostitution is illegal, there is always a motivation for the survivor in question to get help, to heal and to re-evaluate their line of work. Not only that, but if prostitution is legal, now everyone who makes money from prostitutes has an incentive to keep them from recovering, from healing. Would their access to mental health care be limited?

My niece spent about three years in various treatment facilities and group homes for kids who's parents don't want/can't handle them any more. I got to know a lot of the girls she lived with over the years. Most of them were sexually abused, and most of them "aged out" of the system-meaning that they were kicked out on their 18th birthday. It would be soooo easy to send recruiters to places like that and take these brand-new adults and make them the next round of brothel workers. Is it tremendously different from the millitary recruiting kids under similar situations? Probably not- other than the fact that the millitary doesn't usually want kids who have as many issues as most of these kids have. Would regulated, monitored brothel work be necessarially worse for these girls than the life of streets and abusive partners that most of them find? It's hard to say, but at least in the latter situation, they know that what they're doing isn't sanctioned or glorified or, in general, isn't a good idea.

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

Yip I can . This one act would disgust me so much. I'm pretty sure there are guys I know who HAVE done... but I'd rather not know to be honest.

wow. i never knew you were so judgemental.

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

wow. i never knew you were so judgemental.

didn't you?? :eek: