Where was "god's will" yesterday?

THC

I´ve only read the first page of this thread...so excuse me if someone made this joke already...

but, i wonder if God still wants that oil pipeline in Alaska for Palin...she's now 0-1 when talking with God...lol

callen

catefrances wrote:

the thing is angelica you wont even acknowledge the possibility that her intent was for God to be on her side? you just dismiss it outright.

sure she could have meant Gods will in regards to the greater good of the country. i am in no doubt as to her intent. for me with all i know of this woman and the politricks in play, it is clear she was hoping/ praying/wishing for a republican win. and that it be delivered by divine intervention.

I heard her say "I'll be praying I wake up to be president elect"

There is no doubt that many Christians felt (and openly say it) that Dubya was "gods will".....oh and the next sentence.."we got to kill us some Aarabs".

Funny thing about religion, no matter what happens it can be justified...course has to for individual preservation.

angelica

catefrances wrote:

the thing is angelica you wont even acknowledge the possibility that her intent was for God to be on her side? you just dismiss it outright.

Inaccurate.

I specifically said:

angelica wrote:

Right...so you don't know what it is to put your faith in God's will...Whether one is arrogant, or wants one's 'side' to win, or whether one thinks God is naturally on one's side....putting your faith in God's will supercedes all of that and is a category all it's own.

This is where I see a working understanding of what it means to put one's faith in God's will is necessary in order to understand the implications of what she said. I put my faith in God's will ALL the time. In the meantime, I also do everything I can to create what I want for myself in my life. As spiritual as I am...I personally know there is NO WAY that I'm 'selfless' enough to not want things to turn out the way I want them....putting my faith in God's will is a very potent statement in recognizing that for the potency I (and everyone) has...there are a million variables I don't control. And I still want what I pour my energy into creating for myself!! I definitely wouldn't expect Sarah Palin to be any different! Certainly one's ego might have one believing they are "right" or are going to "win". The whole idea of surrendering to God, though, is in recognizing that one is a paltry, fragmented, (flawed, sinning) human. We are small and are only whole in the totality of All things (God)....So by knowing this, one recognizes the need to surrender to the wholeness ... and even when one is in the grips of ego and self-desires. Both co-exist quite nicely, and by affirming faith in God, the whole point is to supercede fragmented, small ego desire...even if one by and large feels those selfish desires overwhelmingly. I've been there..where I have been embroiled in an us vs them mentality, and have prayed, desperately hoping for a fragmented outcome in my favour. And that I am able to see through that and trust the larger picture, shows my insight into the larger picture, even though I'm largely much more invested in my individual ego vision.

Putting your faith in God is not an either/or proposition of saintly behaviour. it co-exists perfectly alongside a very self-ish approach. Anyone who actively puts their faith in God's will knows this.

By not understanding where a Christian is coming from, and to assess Christian actions from an anti-Christian view is not a great approach. it leads to 2-dimensional assessment that can't understand the paradox of putting one's faith in God while also doing everything in one's power to create one's wants/needs. A typical anti-Christian and ignorant judgment of Christianity assumes surrendering one's will to God to be an act of powerlessness and futile imagination. The fact is, often when one is surrendering one ALSO recognizes the need to utilize all their personal power to also bring about what they seek! It's a wholistic and paradoxical action, that's the opposite of powerless...it's rather covering all bases, of one's own will, and emitting an energy unifying with all one doesn't control.

decides2dream

actual meaning and intent, even if unproven...sooo not the same thing. i'd also guess the basis of this thread. but hey, just an opinion.




anyhoo...whatever the intent...doesn't make a lick of difference now in any case! i for one, celebrate that...others maybe not so much. differing perspectives come into play here as they do in all things.

personally, i think i's good to move past all that has transpired, learn from it.....and let's look onwards to the future with cautious optimism. such a refreshing idea! i for one am so happy to be feeling hopeful....and whether it is 'god's will' or not......is not really of any consequence to me, but for those who believe.....i guess it is.

slightofjeff

eyedclaar wrote:

And people wonder why PJ avoids Texas...

Who's wondering?

We all know ... they only like preaching to the choir

decides2dream

slightofjeff wrote:

Who's wondering?

We all know ... they only like preaching to the choir

they played uniondale NY.
it was my first show ever...and it was awesome!
dunno how god's will figures into it though.

callen

angelica wrote:

By not understanding where a Christian is coming from, and to assess Christian actions from an anti-Christian view is not a great approach. it leads to 2-dimensional assessment that can't understand the paradox of putting one's faith in God while also doing everything in one's power to create one's wants/needs. A typical anti-Christian and ignorant judgment of Christianity assumes surrendering one's will to God to be an act of powerlessness and futile imagination. The fact is, often when one is surrendering one ALSO recognizes the need to utilize all their personal power to also bring about what they seek! It's a wholistic and paradoxical action, that's the opposite of powerless...it's rather covering all bases, of one's own will, and emitting an energy unifying with all one doesn't control.

Not so sure people that don't believe in Christianity aren't able to understand the needs and motivations of those that do. We are simply all human animals, not special, and thus have the very same drive to want to understand, want to feel important, want to be validated, yet are able to meet these basic human needs in other ways.

decides2dream

for those who truly believe in god's will..in it's purity, i would think that the outcome of the election is exactly that, and i would also think such thinkers would find comfort and solace in that. hopefully it could be a unifying force.

slightofjeff

decides2dream wrote:

for those who truly believe in god's will..in it's purity, i would think that the outcome of the election is exactly that, and i would also think such thinkers would find comfort and solace in that. hopefully it could be a unifying force.

In all seriousness on the God's will thing ... if you are a Christian, you believe God's will is ALWAYS realized ... whether it seems positive or negative to you.

Obama getting elected is God's will. Your grandma getting cancer is God's will. A drunk driver running over your daughter is God's will.

It's not just the "good stuff."

angelica

callen wrote:

Not so sure people that don't believe in Christianity aren't able to understand the needs and motivations of those that do. We are simply all human animals, not special, and thus have the very same drive to want to understand, want to feel important, want to be validated, yet are able to meet these basic human needs in other ways.

Of course people who are non-Christian are able to understand the needs and motivations of others with different beliefs. I wouldn't spend most of my debate time talking to atheists If I believed otherwise. My concern is when someones preconceptions stand in the way of that understanding.

In this situation, in this thread, it's starting to look to me like everyone is seeing similar things, and yet have been allowing the differences in perspective to stand in the way of just seeing eye to eye. It's not the potential for understanding that is causing miscommunication, misunderstanding and difference. it's clinging to one's ideas (ego) and the belief in separation that shape our perceptions that is.

decides2dream

slightofjeff wrote:

In all seriousness on the God's will thing ... if you are a Christian, you believe God's will is ALWAYS realized ... whether it seems positive or negative to you.

Obama getting elected is God's will. Your grandma getting cancer is God's will. A drunk driver running over your daughter is God's will.

It's not just the "good stuff."

well that's my point.
while it's not my thing, i was well brought up in a very catholic household so i am well-versed. the good AND the bad, ALL god's will. and if one looks upon god's will as 'things as they should be'...well then, even obama was not the choice for many....it being 'god's will'i would think offer some comfort there, that things will progress as they are meant to progress. for me, this is simply not my view of the world...but i am just sticking with the topic.



btw - i like how you link obama's win, grandma's cancer and a daughter's death.....all as god's will which of course it would be if that's your belief....but that it's all not the 'good stuff.'


well-played....;)


and while i can only make my own inference to palin's intent....i'm gonna go with her thinking very much the same there.

angelica

slightofjeff wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

for those who truly believe in god's will..in it's purity, i would think that the outcome of the election is exactly that, and i would also think such thinkers would find comfort and solace in that. hopefully it could be a unifying force.

In all seriousness on the God's will thing ... if you are a Christian, you believe God's will is ALWAYS realized ... whether it seems positive or negative to you.

Obama getting elected is God's will. Your grandma getting cancer is God's will. A drunk driver running over your daughter is God's will.

It's not just the "good stuff."

Absolutely. 100%.

Any Christian has to be denying God's will in order to not see that what happens is God's will. 100%.

Granted, the denial happens constantly anyway, because the basis of Christianity (and my view) is the acknowledgment that as humans we are flawed. So our flaws will continue to operate until we can achieve self-mastery, like the role-model of Jesus. We can only do what we can do and learn from our flaws, and hopefully progress and evolve.

This may not be a Christian view..I don't know...but it's clear to me that my experience is also God's will...so if I have opposing beliefs to Obama, that's also just part of the way it is. There is not actual separation between humans, and the will of the Universe or All that exists, except by our perspective (individual will). And when we de-align with all of the universe...we will receive consequences for such maladaption. When we align our will to life, we will receive adaptive consequences (growth, understanding).


Edit: it is totally clear to me that it is meant to be that Obama has been elected to the Presidency. No doubt. I totally accept that fact, like I also accept that my feelings on the subject are also meant to be.

catefrances

angelica wrote:

Inaccurate.

I specifically said:


Right...so you don't know what it is to put your faith in God's will...Whether one is arrogant, or wants one's 'side' to win, or whether one thinks God is naturally on one's side....putting your faith in God's will supercedes all of that and is a category all it's own.

you quoting the above statement does not negate my argument. you still have not recognised the possibility of palins intent being for her side to win this election. you speak about if one were arrogant or whatever being superceded by putting ones faith in God. as if that is what is in debate here. we are speaking specifically of palin's intent in invoking the will the God in this instance. the point of contention is her intent, not Gods will. and not what it means to surrender oneself to that will.

decides2dream

catefrances wrote:

you quoting the above statement does not negate my argument. you still have not recognised the possibility of palins intent being for her side to win this election. you speak about if one were arrogant or whatever being superceded by putting ones faith in God. as if that is what is in debate here. we are speaking specifically of palin's intent in invoking the will the God in this instance. the point of contention is her intent, not Gods will. and not what it means to surrender oneself to that will.

cate! shush now! you mean you actually want to focus on the thread topic? how dare you?!


[size=-5](seriously...i agree)[/size]

angelica

catefrances wrote:

you quoting the above statement does not negate my argument. you still have not recognised the possibility of palins intent being for her side to win this election. you speak about if one were arrogant or whatever being superceded by putting ones faith in God. as if that is what is in debate here. we are speaking specifically of palin's intent in invoking the will the God in this instance. the point of contention is her intent, not Gods will. and not what it means to surrender oneself to that will.

You clearly are not comprehending what I'm saying.

writersu

QuestionAuthority wrote:

I thought "god's will" was going to deliver the election to McCain and Palin.. at least that is what she so brilliantly commented last week.. kind of makes you question your faith

or..

I guess god liked Obama!

I know I am so saddened.............. I can't believe he fooled all of the voters.......

catefrances

angelica wrote:

You clearly are not comprehending what I'm saying.

if that were true, im certain not to be the first and i certainly wont be the last. i wonder if even you comprehend what youre saying angelica.

searchlightsoul

catefrances wrote:

if that were true, im certain not to be the first

Definitely not the first.